Infallibility

[Trailblazer]

Not that I know of, but God willing somebody with the money to do so will document the testing of Baha’u’llah’s copper hypothesis one day just to lay it to rest.

I doubt He was referring to the actual mineral copper, and since we do not know, we cannot say that makes Him fallible..

Copper to Gold?

 

[loverofhumanity]

The question is not can God do it. The question is does it naturally happen if left in it’s original mine in a molten state inside of (or for less than) 70 years.

True belief in God has nothing to do with it. A group of scientists who don’t believe in God at all can test it because it is a falsifiable claim.

If Baha’u’llah, a Manifestation of God says it can be done then it can for Baha’u’llah is infallible and All Knowing and scientists have finite minds which can err. Scientists make mistakes, a Manifestation of God does not.

 

[Trailblazer]

We believe all the Manifestations of God whether it be Baha’u’llah, Muhammad, Krishna, Jesus, Buddha, Moses, Christ or , Zoroaster are all infallible. This is our basic belief.

Infallibility

Regarding your Bahá'í friend who does not fully understand the infallibility of the Manifestation of God: You should influence that person to study the matter more deeply, and to realize that the whole theory of Divine Revelation rests on the infallibility of the Prophet, be He Christ, Muhammad, Bahá'u'lláh, or one of the others. If they are not infallible, then They are not Divine, and thus lose that essential link with God which, we believe, is the bond that educates men and causes all human progress."
(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, January 11, 1942)

If they are not infallible, game over, as there is no reason we should consider their Words to be the Word of God. That is logic 101 stuff... Then we have the following passage. If the Will of the Manifestations of God is identical to the Will of God, that means that the Manifestations of God are infallible, since God is infallible:

“The essence of belief in Divine unity consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same. By this is meant that whatever pertaineth to the former, all His acts and doings, whatever He ordaineth or forbiddeth, should be considered, in all their aspects, and under all circumstances, and without any reservation, as identical with the Will of God Himself. This is the loftiest station to which a true believer in the unity of God can ever hope to attain. Blessed is the man that reacheth this station, and is of them that are steadfast in their belief.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 167

 

[danieldemol]

I doubt He was referring to the actual mineral copper, and since we do not know, we cannot say that makes Him fallible..

Copper to Gold?

You are saying this because of the natural conflict between what Baha’u’llah obviously says, and what you subconsciously know to be true concerning chemistry.

I would suggest that this is a mentally unhealthy state to be in and the best way to overcome it is to come clean with yourself and just take the courage to admit that something Baha’u’llah definitely wrote is highly unlikely to be true.

In short what i’m saying is spare yourself the mental gymnastics invlolved in defending the indefensible.

 

[loverofhumanity]

The question is not can God do it. The question is does it naturally happen if left in it’s original mine in a molten state inside of (or for less than) 70 years.

True belief in God has nothing to do with it. A group of scientists who don’t believe in God at all can test it because it is a falsifiable claim.

As a Baha’i I follow Baha’u’llah and whatsoever He says is truth.

 

[Trailblazer]

I would suggest that this is a mentally unhealthy state to be in and the best way to overcome it is to come clean with yourself and just take the courage to admit that something Baha’u’llah definitely wrote is highly unlikely to be true.

I would suggest that this is a mentally unhealthy state to be a Baha'i who does believes Baha'u'llah did not tell the truth.

I would also suggest that this is a mentally unhealthy state to be a Baha'i who does not believe what Baha'u'llah wrote about the Infallibility of Manifestations of God.

“Say: This is the infallible Balance which the Hand of God is holding, in which all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth are weighed, and their fate determined, if ye be of them that believe and recognize this truth. Say: Through it the poor have been enriched, the learned enlightened, and the seekers enabled to ascend unto the presence of God. Beware, lest ye make it a cause of dissension amongst you. Be ye as firmly settled as the immovable mountain in the Cause of your Lord, the Mighty, the Loving.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 136-137

“Tear asunder, in My Name, the veils that have grievously blinded your vision, and, through the power born of your belief in the unity of God, scatter the idols of vain imitation. Enter, then, the holy paradise of the good-pleasure of the All-Merciful. Sanctify your souls from whatsoever is not of God, and taste ye the sweetness of rest within the pale of His vast and mighty Revelation, and beneath the shadow of His supreme and infallible authority.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143

“We can well perceive how the whole human race is encompassed with great, with incalculable afflictions. We see it languishing on its bed of sickness, sore-tried and disillusioned. They that are intoxicated by self-conceit have interposed themselves between it and the Divine and infallible Physician. Witness how they have entangled all men, themselves included, in the mesh of their devices. They can neither discover the cause of the disease, nor have they any knowledge of the remedy. They have conceived the straight to be crooked, and have imagined their friend an enemy.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

“Know verily that the essence of justice and the source thereof are both embodied in the ordinances prescribed by Him Who is the Manifestation of the Self of God amongst men, if ye be of them that recognize this truth. He doth verily incarnate the highest, the infallible standard of justice unto all creation. Were His law to be such as to strike terror into the hearts of all that are in heaven and on earth, that law is naught but manifest justice. The fears and agitation which the revelation of this law provokes in men’s hearts should indeed be likened to the cries of the suckling babe weaned from his mother’s milk, if ye be of them that perceive. Were men to discover the motivating purpose of God’s Revelation, they would assuredly cast away their fears, and, with hearts filled with gratitude, rejoice with exceeding gladness.”Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 175

 

[danieldemol]

I would suggest that this is a mentally unhealthy state to be a Baha'i who does believes Baha'u'llah did not tell the truth.

I would also suggest that this is a mentally unhealthy state to be a Baha'i who does not believe what Baha'u'llah wrote about the Infallibility of Manifestations of God.

“Say: This is the infallible Balance which the Hand of God is holding, in which all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth are weighed, and their fate determined, if ye be of them that believe and recognize this truth. Say: Through it the poor have been enriched, the learned enlightened, and the seekers enabled to ascend unto the presence of God. Beware, lest ye make it a cause of dissension amongst you. Be ye as firmly settled as the immovable mountain in the Cause of your Lord, the Mighty, the Loving.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 136-137

“Tear asunder, in My Name, the veils that have grievously blinded your vision, and, through the power born of your belief in the unity of God, scatter the idols of vain imitation. Enter, then, the holy paradise of the good-pleasure of the All-Merciful. Sanctify your souls from whatsoever is not of God, and taste ye the sweetness of rest within the pale of His vast and mighty Revelation, and beneath the shadow of His supreme and infallible authority.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143

“We can well perceive how the whole human race is encompassed with great, with incalculable afflictions. We see it languishing on its bed of sickness, sore-tried and disillusioned. They that are intoxicated by self-conceit have interposed themselves between it and the Divine and infallible Physician. Witness how they have entangled all men, themselves included, in the mesh of their devices. They can neither discover the cause of the disease, nor have they any knowledge of the remedy. They have conceived the straight to be crooked, and have imagined their friend an enemy.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

“Know verily that the essence of justice and the source thereof are both embodied in the ordinances prescribed by Him Who is the Manifestation of the Self of God amongst men, if ye be of them that recognize this truth. He doth verily incarnate the highest, the infallible standard of justice unto all creation. Were His law to be such as to strike terror into the hearts of all that are in heaven and on earth, that law is naught but manifest justice. The fears and agitation which the revelation of this law provokes in men’s hearts should indeed be likened to the cries of the suckling babe weaned from his mother’s milk, if ye be of them that perceive. Were men to discover the motivating purpose of God’s Revelation, they would assuredly cast away their fears, and, with hearts filled with gratitude, rejoice with exceeding gladness.”Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 175

*shrugs* I’m a liberal, so I don’t have that problem.

 

[Trailblazer]

*shrugs* I’m a liberal, so I don’t have that problem.

So liberal Baha'is do not believe what Baha'u'llah wrote?

 

[loverofhumanity]

*shrugs* I’m a liberal, so I don’t have that problem.

Aren’t you a registered Baha’i in good standing?

 

[danieldemol]

So liberal Baha'is do not believe what Baha'u'llah wrote?

I’m not a “liberal Baha’i” so cannot speak for them.
I’m simply a liberal and liberals do not necessarily believe 100% of what any faith founder wrote

 

[Trailblazer]

I’m not a “liberal Baha’i” so cannot speak for them.
I’m simply a liberal and liberals do not necessarily believe 100% of what any faith founder wrote

If you are a Baha'i and a liberal, then I would call you a liberal Baha'i.
Is there a reason why you do not believe 100% of what Baha'u'llah wrote?
If you do not believe it all, how do you pick and choose what you are going to believe and not believe?
Do you understand how that could be problematic if all Baha'is did that?

 

[danieldemol]

If you are a Baha'i and a liberal, then I would call you a liberal Baha'i.
Is there a reason why you do not believe 100% of what Baha'u'llah wrote?
If you do not believe it all, how do you pick and choose what you are going to believe and not believe?
Do you understand how that could be problematic if all Baha'is did that?

Not a Baha’i, just a liberal.
There are many reasons but I have no need to share them with you.
Using reason, science, prayerful reflection, meditation etc.
It wouldn’t be problematic at all if all Baha’i were intellectually honest regardless of the consequences for so-called “infallibility”.

 

[Trailblazer]

It wouldn’t be problematic at all if all Baha’i were intellectually honest regardless of the consequences for so-called “infallibility”.

I see a big problem if Baha'is question what Baha'u'llah wrote about being infallible, because that is as much as calling Baha'u'llah a liar.
If Baha'u'llah was a liar, what reason do we have to even believe that He got a Revelation from God?
If He did not get a Revelation from God, then why even bother to believe in Him?

 

[danieldemol]

I see a big problem if Baha'is question what Baha'u'llah wrote about being infallible, because that is as much as calling Baha'u'llah a liar.
If Baha'u'llah was a liar, what reason do we have to even believe that He got a Revelation from God?
If He did not get a Revelation from God, then why even bother to believe in Him?

It is not calling Him a liar, I accept that Baha’u’llah believed what He said, I just think His revelations came through the coloured glass of His human perceptions, thus it is not to call Him a liar, only to call Him human.

 

[Trailblazer]

It is not calling Him a liar, I accept that Baha’u’llah believed what He said, I just think His revelations came through the coloured glass of His human perceptions, thus it is not to call Him a liar, only to call Him human.

What you are saying is that He was deluded. Why would anyone want to believe in a man who was deluded?

If Baha'u'llah was no more than a mere human, how could He speak as the Voice of God?

“Attract the hearts of men, through the call of Him, the one alone Beloved. Say: This is the Voice of God, if ye do but hearken. This is the Day Spring of the Revelation of God, did ye but know it. This is the Dawning-Place of the Cause of God, were ye to recognize it. This is the Source of the commandment of God, did ye but judge it fairly. This is the manifest and hidden Secret; would that ye might perceive it. O peoples of the world! Cast away, in My name that transcendeth all other names, the things ye possess, and immerse yourselves in this Ocean in whose depths lay hidden the pearls of wisdom and of utterance, an ocean that surgeth in My name, the All-Merciful. Thus instructeth you He with Whom is the Mother Book.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 33-34

 

[danieldemol]

What you are saying is that He was deluded. Why would anyone want to believe in a man who was deluded?

If Baha'u'llah was no more than a mere human, how could He speak as the Voice of God?

“Attract the hearts of men, through the call of Him, the one alone Beloved. Say: This is the Voice of God, if ye do but hearken. This is the Day Spring of the Revelation of God, did ye but know it. This is the Dawning-Place of the Cause of God, were ye to recognize it. This is the Source of the commandment of God, did ye but judge it fairly. This is the manifest and hidden Secret; would that ye might perceive it. O peoples of the world! Cast away, in My name that transcendeth all other names, the things ye possess, and immerse yourselves in this Ocean in whose depths lay hidden the pearls of wisdom and of utterance, an ocean that surgeth in My name, the All-Merciful. Thus instructeth you He with Whom is the Mother Book.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 33-34

I believe we all have the divine spark or soul within us and to the degree that we align ourselves to the will of God, to that degree we can all speak with the voice of God

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe we all have the divine spark or soul within us and to the degree that we align ourselves to the will of God, to that degree we can all speak with the voice of God

So, then you do not believe that Manifestations of God are any different from the rest of us?
What about the Revelation of Baha'u'llah? Do you think we can all receive revelations from God? If so, why did only Baha'u'llah get a revelation?

 

[danieldemol]

So, then you do not believe that Manifestations of God are any different from the rest of us?
What about the Revelation of Baha'u'llah? Do you think we can all receive revelations from God? If so, why did only Baha'u'llah get a revelation?

They may be purer than the rest of us, but not infallibly pure in my belief.
Yes we can all receive revelation from God in accordance with our degree of spiritual receptivity and capacity
I think the last question pertains to your beliefs, not mine

 

[TransmutingSoul]

They may be purer than the rest of us, but not infallibly pure in my belief.
Yes we can all receive revelation from God in accordance with our degree of spiritual receptivity and capacity
I think the last question pertains to your beliefs, not mine

Our only connection to God, for us born of the human spirit, is through the Manifestation by the assistance of the 'Spirit of Faith'.

Abdul'baha has explained essential infallibility in detail, from from his position of acquired infallibility.

"...Know that infallibility is of two kinds: essential infallibility and acquired infallibility. In like manner there is essential knowledge and acquired knowledge; and so it is with other names and attributes. Essential infallibility is peculiar to the supreme Manifestation, for it is His essential requirement, and an essential requirement cannot be separated from the thing itself. The rays are the essential necessity of the sun and are inseparable from it. Knowledge is an essential necessity of God and is inseparable from Him. Power is an essential necessity of God and is inseparable from Him. If it could be separated from Him, He would not be God. If the rays could be separated from the sun, it would not be the sun. Therefore, if one imagines separation of the Most Great Infallibility from the supreme Manifestation, He would not be the supreme Manifestation, and He would lack the essential perfections...."

Always happy to discuss.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 171-175

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

They may be purer than the rest of us, but not infallibly pure in my belief.
Yes we can all receive revelation from God in accordance with our degree of spiritual receptivity and capacity
I think the last question pertains to your beliefs, not mine

You already know my position on infallibility of the Manifestations of God. It is as what Tony quoted, essential infallibility.
I do not believe that any ordinary human can receive a revelation from God because that is what Baha'u'llah wrote.
So, you do not believe that Baha'ullah got a Revelation from God?