Infallibility

[Dawnofhope]

Thanks for sharing. You brought some things to mind...

Maybe I took the Faith for granted since it was so easy for me to recognize it, I don’t really know. All I know is that shortly after I became a Baha’i I began to heave serious emotional problems, but that was no doubt all latent within me because of unresolved childhood issues. That went on for 12 years and then I married my husband three weeks after we met and he was also a Baha’i who had serious emotional issues. Both of us had childhood issues because our parents did not want us, and both of us had depression and anxiety, although his depression was situational and mine was endogenous.

Anyhow, about a year before I got married I had already sought help from a psychiatrist so I was on the road to recovery. That took upwards of 15 years of my life, and during those years I had nothing to do with the Faith. My husband also had issues so he was not participating in any Baha’i activities either. I still had to work and make a living but because of our childhood issues we never had any children.

I always knew who Baha’u’llah was but I never had any feelings for Him, and any feelings I had towards God were negative. That is putting it mildly. I blamed God for all my suffering because after all, it says in the Writings that God sends the tests. I know all the reasons tests are supposed to be good for us but that does not change the suffering incurred, relentless suffering. Perhaps if I did not have endogenous depression and anxiety it would not have been so difficult to endure it. I was never able to get any help from antidepressant drugs, they nearly killed me, but after I quit taking them I got a lot of help from homeopathic medicine which I took for about 15 years. I never had major depression again after that but I will always have dysthymia. A good day for me is when I am not depressed or anxious about something; I don’t expect much more and I do not need any more than that.

A lot of people seem to think “turning to God” is a cure for depression, but it is no more of a cure for depression than it is a cure for cancer. It helps not to shut God out but it is difficult to love a God you believe is deliberately torturing you just to teach you a lesson. I am quite certain it will all become clear after I die and go to the spiritual world, but meanwhile.....

I have lost everything that matters most to me in this life, except my husband, and I am sure more loss is on the horizon. This gives the words “the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away” a whole new meaning for me. I believe we have free will so we are responsible to do everything possible to help ourselves but sometimes that is not enough. The buck stops with God since God is omnipotent, so God could help if He wanted to help.

“God witnesseth that there is no God but Him, the Gracious, the Best-Beloved. All grace and bounty are His. To whomsoever He will He giveth whatsoever is His wish. He, verily, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 73​

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 209​

I cannot help but think logically so I cannot believe God is “All-Loving” just because “some” scriptures say that. Scriptures also say that God has wrath and directs it at whomsoever He willeth. To deny that is to deny the Bible, the Qur’an and the Writings of Baha’u’llah.

It sounds really difficult for you in your day to day life. None of us can walk in the shoes of another. Some of us have had troubles in our lives that can not be imagined by others and are difficult to speak of. I too am one of those people. That being said I’ve largely moved on from my past. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t rear its head from time to time. I feel as if I’ve forgiven those who have hurt me most and through that have forgiven myself. I Rarely consider whether God loves or hates me but I feel through prayer and right action He has enabled me to have the best attitude. That brings peace. I therefore feel blessed in my life and grateful. I have known well the depths of despair but it seems like a distant memory. Sometimes a glimpse of heaven confounds me as I don’t deserve the life I have been given.

 

[Vinayaka]

The founding Prophet of our community, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian (on him be peace) who nothing but a slave of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was infallible as far as religious matters are concerned. That is required because without some sort of infallibility protecting their commandments it becomes useless to be instructed to obey all their commandments. While it is important to look for and find wisdom behind commandments however disobedience until agreement in all matters is found leads to a very inefficient community.

That is why choice of leadership matters and the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community (thank you for your compliment) is full of nice people for having the best leader in the world.

Thank you. This makes sense to me. Being infallible in religious matters is different than being infallible totally. Much like papal infallibility. I like the humility and low profile. Until just now when I looked it up, I didn't know who the current head was.

 

[loverofhumanity]

The Baha'i prophet, according to Baha's is indeed infallible. Not only that but he declared it for himself. There are others as well.

I'm with you. You have extra beer?

I think it all comes down to whether one accepts whether perfection or and infallibility can possibly exist or not.

 

[sojourner]

I think it all comes down to whether one accepts whether perfection or and infallibility can possibly exist or not.

Maybe this has already been mentioned, but, what is perfection? Is it some objective standard, in the realm of empiricism, or is it something more subjective, in the realm of aesthetic? I may hear a piece of music and think, “Perfect!” Someone else may hear the same music and go, “Garbage!”

And, what is “infallibility?” Is that also an objective standard, or is it merely being true to one’s own truth?

 

[Trailblazer]

It sounds really difficult for you in your day to day life. None of us can walk in the shoes of another. Some of us have had troubles in our lives that can not be imagined by others and are difficult to speak of. I too am one of those people. That being said I’ve largely moved on from my past. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t rear its head from time to time. I feel as if I’ve forgiven those who have hurt me most and through that have forgiven myself. I Rarely consider whether God loves or hates me but I feel through prayer and right action He has enabled me to have the best attitude. That brings peace. I therefore feel blessed in my life and grateful. I have known well the depths of despair but it seems like a distant memory. Sometimes a glimpse of heaven confounds me as I don’t deserve the life I have been given.

I am happy to hear that your depths of despair are a distant memory. Everyone has a different life and a different set of circumstances and we all have different capacities. Certain life circumstances are beyond my control and cannot be changed so all I can do is try to cope daily. I try to be grateful for what I do have, but all too often it is difficult to see that. Remember what Abdu'l-Baha said:

“Joy gives us wings! In times of joy our strength is more vital, our intellect keener, and our understanding less clouded. We seem better able to cope with the world and to find our sphere of usefulness. But when sadness visits us we become weak, our strength leaves us, our comprehension is dim and our intelligence veiled. The actualities of life seem to elude our grasp, the eyes of our spirits fail to discover the sacred mysteries, and we become even as dead beings.” Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, pp. 109-110​

 

[Jainarayan]

Thank you. This makes sense to me. Being infallible in religious matters is different than being infallible totally. Much like papal infallibility. I like the humility and low profile. Until just now when I looked it up, I didn't know who the current head was.

I haven't read through the whole thread, so someone else may have said this:

Infallibility typically refers to the Pope, head of the Catholic Church when he speaks ex cathedra, "from the chair", i.e. the chair of St. Peter as leader of the Catholic Church, but only on matters of Church doctrine and theology. The doctrine of papal infallibility was first established in the First Vatican Council (1869-1871) and reaffirmed in the Second Vatican Council (962–1965). Infallibility doesn't mean the Pope is without sin. As a mortal man he is certainly capable of sin in his private life, and even when administrating the Church. But Church belief is that when he speaks only as the vicar of Christ, the Holy Spirit keeps him on the straight and narrow. So, if he is complicit in the abuse scandal, he is committing sin and is not considered infallible then.

An example of his infallibility is the doctrine that Mary the mother of Jesus was preserved from original sin in order to give birth to the son of God. That's something Catholics must believe. Do I believe the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception (Mary's) or papal infallibility? Not particularly because I am not Catholic and do not believe the theology. Most, if not all Protestant denominations, as well as the Eastern Orthodox and Anglican Churches reject papal infallibility also.

The Eastern Orthodox Church has no single head; the Ecumenical Patriarch (Patriarch of Constantinople) has primacy of honor, primus inter pares, but he has no spiritual or administrative authority over any church. Orthodox bishops rule as a body, a synod, which, like the Pope, is said to be guided by the Holy Spirit. But Orthodox bishops can and do sin and even commit civil crimes. A couple of them of the Orthodox Church in America have been defrocked and removed from office. One was even facing deportation back to Romania some years ago for his involvement in Nazi war crimes. While he didn't commit them, he turned a blind eye. He gave up his American citizenship and fled to Portugal.

Glad you asked?
.

 

[Vinayaka]

I haven't read through the whole thread, so someone else may have said this:

.

Yes, Jai, others have mentioned that, and I was aware of it before. What I meant in the OP is the absolute infallibility some folks attribute to their scriptures or prophets or leaders. You know ... the stuff that dreams are made of.

 

[atanu]

So when did this idea that a scripture or a prophet or a messenger or a pope is absolutely perfect in every way come into practice? Has it been there since early times, or is it more recent? What purpose does it serve?

What or who do you consider infallible, if anything?

As an eastern thinker and logical person, I don't get infallibility. To be clear, I understand what it means, I just don't get how anyone else could believe in it, yet I know some do. I just shake my head and go 'really?'

Here's an example. "I'm infallible. I said I was infallible, and since I'm infallible, it is only logical to conclude I'm infallible. I mean, how could an infallible person claiming to be infallible possibly be wrong?"

Does this sound logical to you?

I agree.

I think it is a property of ahamkara-manas to feel and act infallible. We are conditioned and so we have personalities that differ from each other. I do not think that a jiva, on account of being conditioned, can ever be infallible, else a Jiva would be called Ishwara.

We do not know whence the "I", yet we assert infallibility for the (incorrect) "I".

 

[Jainarayan]

Yes, Jai, others have mentioned that, and I was aware of it before. What I meant in the OP is the absolute infallibility some folks attribute to their scriptures or prophets or leaders. You know ... the stuff that dreams are made of.

Yeah, I can't believe that either. Not when the Rig Veda even questions itself. I think the Nasadiya Sukta is one of the most honest pieces of literature, scripture, poetry, hymn ever. Even the Puranas, when they seem to contradict themselves and each other, really don't as far as I believe.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I am happy to hear that your depths of despair are a distant memory. Everyone has a different life and a different set of circumstances and we all have different capacities. Certain life circumstances are beyond my control and cannot be changed so all I can do is try to cope daily. I try to be grateful for what I do have, but all too often it is difficult to see that. Remember what Abdu'l-Baha said:

“Joy gives us wings! In times of joy our strength is more vital, our intellect keener, and our understanding less clouded. We seem better able to cope with the world and to find our sphere of usefulness. But when sadness visits us we become weak, our strength leaves us, our comprehension is dim and our intelligence veiled. The actualities of life seem to elude our grasp, the eyes of our spirits fail to discover the sacred mysteries, and we become even as dead beings.” Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, pp. 109-110​

I understand depression because I had a major depressive episode, severe with suicidal ideation for nearly two years. I didn’t see a psychiatrist or take medication. I sought God and applied the remedy of His Teachings to my life. It was during this time I became a Baha’i. I haven’t been depressed since.

I appreciate we’re all different and some of us despite our best efforts will have a lifetime of being psychologically disabled, need to take medication and see psychiatrists. I know this because my mother had bipolar disorder with frequent admissions to hospital for 25 years.

 

[`mud]

Been there...done that...never gone back !
A beer a day...none this week...groceries tomorrow !
Blood thinner and B12...that's it...and chocolate !!!!

 

[loverofhumanity]

The Baha'i prophet, according to Baha's is indeed infallible. Not only that but he declared it for himself. There are others as well.

I'm with you. You have extra beer?

So far it’s kept us united as one world community and is working well.

 

[Vinayaka]

So far it’s kept us united as one world community and is working well.

So all the ex-Bahai's and covenant breakers, family members kicked out, they're all still there with you? That doesn't sound like being united as one. But I suppose if you have 10 people, and 8 quit, the other two are still united, if you want to tell people that, and just pretend the other 8 didn't exist.

 

[Trailblazer]

I understand depression because I had a major depressive episode, severe with suicidal ideation for nearly two years. I didn’t see a psychiatrist or take medication. I sought God and applied the remedy of His Teachings to my life. It was during this time I became a Baha’i. I haven’t been depressed since.

Do you think that it was God Himself that helped you or do you think that it was the fact that you trusted in God that helped you or do you think that it was following His Teachings that helped you, or maybe it is a combination or all of the above?

Of course there are other factors that come into play, such as support from family and friends; this is very important. Before I got married I did not have any family or friends, all I had was my mother whom the psychiatrist said made my situation worse. After I got married, I always had my husband to turn to, but I had no other family or friends, until I started posting on forums in January 2013.

What led me to see a psychiatrist was another diagnosis but I don’t want to share that here. So, having struggled with that condition for 12 years I really needed a psychiatrist and drugs for a given length of time, although later I was able to get off those drugs after I found homeopathy. Interestingly, it was a medical doctor who was a Baha’i that was my first homeopath. I do not have major depression anymore, my primary diagnosis is anxiety and PTSD, but it is situational so if my life was not so stressful, with so many things to worry about, I do not think I would have anxiety at all.

I appreciate we’re all different and some of us despite our best efforts will have a lifetime of being psychologically disabled, need to take medication and see psychiatrists. I know this because my mother had bipolar disorder with frequent admissions to hospital for 25 years.

If I had known better I would not stayed on antidepressant drugs for five years, but that was all I knew at the time. They did break the pattern of behavior that I had but they never really cured the depression, they just masked it. Only after I went for homeopathy did I really change. I vowed never to take antidepressant drugs again and I never did.

After that, I still had some serious issues with grief reactions related to my PTSD, and this never improved until I finally turned to God in June 2014 when I was suicidal. It has gradually continued to improve since then. Before that I went to various counselors for my grief and PTSD, but since I turned to God I have not been to a counselor. They never really helped me much anyway. It was turning to God and getting social support on various forums that really helped me most. These forums are a lifeline for people like me who just do not like socializing in person. I might be able to start attending Baha’i activities someday but right now I feel like the Baha’is are better off without me, given my inner feelings that I would like to keep inner.

 

[loverofhumanity]

So all the ex-Bahai's and covenant breakers, family members kicked out, they're all still there with you? That doesn't sound like being united as one. But I suppose if you have 10 people, and 8 quit, the other two are still united, if you want to tell people that, and just pretend the other 8 didn't exist.

The Baha’i Faith is committed to peace, love and unity however from time to time there have been a few who have attempted to split our religion into sects like the other major Faiths so they have been expelled.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Maybe this has already been mentioned, but, what is perfection? Is it some objective standard, in the realm of empiricism, or is it something more subjective, in the realm of aesthetic? I may hear a piece of music and think, “Perfect!” Someone else may hear the same music and go, “Garbage!”

And, what is “infallibility?” Is that also an objective standard, or is it merely being true to one’s own truth?

Personally I don’t know all the answers to these questions but I believe we can gain much insight into these things by consulting the Holy Books and lives associated with Great Beings such as Buddha and Christ, Moses or Baha’u’llah.

I think we all have both inner sight and inner ears with which we can recognise perfection related to spiritual truth or God.

To me I recognise perfection in the lives of these Great Beings and find from extensive investigation that their words and deeds reflect perfection.

So really, I cannot explain perfection in words to you as it’s a spiritual reality beyond description but I feel confident that you can find it if you explore the words, deeds and lives of these Great Teachers.

So for me, I have seen perfection through these Beings but can not explain it as it’s a spiritual reality the individual can only see for him or her self not through the description of other people.

These Beings are like pure mirrors which reflect the light of the Sun of Reality or God or the Ultimate Truth.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Sure, prophets used symbolic language. How about historians?

The biblical verses in question are more like the art of story telling rather than the more precise and detailed account of an historian.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I should have read ahead. You say "myth" as if it is not a bad thing to be in a book that is supposed to be the "Word of God"? That's a big problem for Christians, 'cause they are taught to trust as true and without errors... and when talking about historical things, literal. If it allegorized embellishments, then what about the Virgin Birth, the Resurrection, walking on water and the rest? Embellishments, symbolism, or literal? Literal gives Christians a solid foundation of Jesus being the very literal Son of God. Symbolism? What? Symbolically rose from the dead and walk on water? Big deal. Although I know Baha'is, for some reason believe in the Virgin Birth, I don't know why. I'm still not buying into it being "scientifically" feasible, but you're the doctor.

Anyway, I still go with embellishment. They had to argue the case to make Jesus greater than everybody and everything, amidst claims from kings and prophets of things like rising from the dead and being born in a miraculous way. The writers out did them all and made Jesus virtually God himself. And his followers, the dummies, took the writings so literal that they believed Jesus was God himself.

It’s remarkable how little we know about the life of Jesus. Prior to His Ministry, practically nothing. Then if we were to read any of the Gospels out aloud, it would only take a couple of hours. It’s like the length of a movie. Perhaps its the maximum length of time the story of Jesus would be told to others. Even the best productions should be kept within two hours. The tough part is having those parables that are like a cute short story, yet have profound mystery that may take hours to unravel.

There’s middle ground between an historic account and allegorical embellished stories and the parables. Eventually it’s hard to unravel what is literally true, the profound stories Christ told, and the story of His life that is almost parable like in places.

We have plenty of people who want to take it all literally two thousand years later. I’m happy I’m not one of them. It’s still the Word of God though, whether the Words of the Manifestation Himself, or the ‘inspired’ story of His life.

 

[Dawnofhope]

So the Bible doesn't make Adam to be a manifestation, in fact, they make him out to be the one that caused the fall of man. But Islam makes him a manifestation... a "perfectly polished mirror", ? And the first one? But don't Baha'is believe there were manifestations prior to Adam? And this is not contradictions?

Don’t you love the irony and contradictions! Adam is as far back as we know about and what do we know of Adam? Nothing, and we know even less about whoever came before. Who follows Adam anymore anyhow?

 

[Marcion]

It’s still the Word of God though, whether the Words of the Manifestation Himself, or the ‘inspired’ story of His life.

So does seeing the Chistian Bible as the "Word of God" mean that you like or feel inspired by every idea and word in the New Testament? Is that your actual experience when reading it?