Inflicting suffering

[Soandso]

The "problem of evil" is just immature bogus nonsense. It presumes that God could force us all to be good to each other, but chooses not to, so it's God's fault that we are evil to each other, to ourselves, to the world, and that we suffer as a result.

This is an insanely childish perspective. As for one thing it completely ignores our own complicity in our suffering by presuming that we would be better off without individual free will. In which case we wouldn't even be human, anymore. Or even sentient beings. And for another thing it presumes that we should never die. So that not only would we live our lives as will-less robots, but we would be doing so eternally. And that somehow THAT wouldn't be an even more hellish nightmare than the fact that we currently suffer and die at least partly by our own stupid and selfish choices.

Question: does god have free will?

Also, is he all good?

 

[Koldo]

Depends on the context of the event

Would you say it's just to report a woman stealing baby formula in a walmart? Some might say that it's just for theft to be met with punishment. I'd refrain from reporting and say it's only fair given the context surrounding poor people in this country (that is, the USA) and the way opportunistic and faceless organizations like walmart help to promote human injustice the world over

Then again, if I did actually witness such a thing I would stop her, let her know that I'll pay for the things she needs, then she can go on a shopping spree on my dime - within reason, heh

Is a woman that steals baby formula (because she needs it, I gather?) in a walmart doing something morally wrong? Why?

 

[Soandso]

Is a woman that steals baby formula (because she needs it, I gather?) in a walmart doing something morally wrong? Why?

Well, technically yes, but people do what they need to to survive.

I guess if I were in her situation, it'd be hard for me to contend with the concept of stealing - even if it were from a faceless organization. I would exhaust all available options that I could before getting to that point. If no other options presented themselves, I suppose I would do it myself as well. People are subject to their environments

 

[Koldo]

Well, technically yes, but people do what they need to to survive.

I guess if I were in her situation, it'd be hard for me to contend with the concept of stealing - even if it were from a faceless organization. I would exhaust all available options that I could before getting to that point. If no other options presented themselves, I suppose I would do it myself as well. People are subject to their environments

But why do you regard that as immoral? Because all stealing is immoral, if so why? How did you reach this conclusion?

 

[Soandso]

But why do you regard that as immoral? Because all stealing is immoral, if so why? How did you reach this conclusion?

Well, I would imagine it has a lot to do with my upbringing, and with the morals instilled in me by my parents. Also, cultural norms and laws of the land play a major role as well

 

[Quintessence]

I am going to elaborate where I am coming from: If whatever caused me to come into existence is responsible for torment, then damned be what caused my existence. My own existence doesn't suddenly excuse the acts of that cause just because I happened to benefit from it. Because this is not about me, it never was. Likewise, if my perspective is intentfully clouded by what is self-serving, by what I find constructive, rather than what is true, damned be me for I am making it all about me and this is not about me, it never was.

Ah, so for you it is about excusing things for perceived evils that something was "responsible for" in some sort of ethically accountable way? Something like that?

I guess I don't approach thinking about it that way. There exists within the universe powers vastly greater than myself that, while "responsible for" things that can harm me, are well beyond any possible accountability. I cannot get rid of these things, and I have no power to change these things whatsoever. I usually don't feel a need to spit into the wind; it's not useful. Accept the wind is there, and learn of its patterns and try to go with its flow. And maybe create a ship with a sail on it; know one's powers and limitations then leverage that as one wills.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Wait, three questions for you, then.

Firstly, does hell exist?

Yes .. many from mankind will experience hell.

Secondly, did god create hell?

I have already explained .. it is a consequence of mankind being capable of choosing evil, as well as good.

Thirdly, does god have free will?

Yes .. which is what is meant by "in His image" .. that is in a spiritual sense, yet we are not Holy & Pure as is God.

 

[Koldo]

Well, I would imagine it has a lot to do with my upbringing, and with the morals instilled in me by my parents. Also, cultural norms and laws of the land play a major role as well

This is exactly what I meant by: "I don't mean to offend, but I genuinely feel like you haven't thought this through and is merely going by your cultural background. As in, you have been taught that retribution is wrong, and thus adjusted your perception of what is right according to that. Am I incorrect?"

 

[Koldo]

Ah, so for you it is about excusing things for perceived evils that something was "responsible for" in some sort of ethically accountable way? Something like that?

I guess I don't approach thinking about it that way. There exists within the universe powers vastly greater than myself that, while "responsible for" things that can harm me, are well beyond any possible accountability. I cannot get rid of these things, and I have no power to change these things whatsoever. I usually don't feel a need to spit into the wind; it's not useful. Accept the wind is there, and learn of its patterns and try to go with its flow. And maybe create a ship with a sail on it; know one's powers and limitations then leverage that as one wills.

I don't actually treat things such as the wind as moral agents. I don't think the wind is worthy of recognition nor reprehension, since it can't make moral actions (which would require the ability to make conscious actions in the first place). I am thinking more on terms of causal link when I think of responsibility in those cases.

In both cases however, being able to hold someone accountable has zilch significance as far determining whether someone (or something) is responsible for something in particular. When it comes down to the wind for example, once responsibility has been ascertained, we can seek to control it to change future outcomes.

 

[Soandso]

This is exactly what I meant by: "I don't mean to offend, but I genuinely feel like you haven't thought this through and is merely going by your cultural background. As in, you have been taught that retribution is wrong, and thus adjusted your perception of what is right according to that. Am I incorrect?"

Fair enough. I guess I haven't felt the need to really dissect what I view to be right and wrong, or why I feel that way beyond if I'm able look at myself in the mirror and be ok with what I see. That said, I don't really hold others to my own personal standards for myself. We all have different lots in life and do what we can according to our circumstances

But I guess I also feel that power dynamics are important, and they can be applied more on a personal basis. The more power someone has over another, the thinner that line is to cross in what is acceptable vs. unacceptable. Not saying that I'm the arbiter of all that is just, but it certainly feels wrong when people are abusing that power dynamic

 

[Soandso]

I have already explained .. it is a consequence of mankind being capable of choosing evil, as well as good.

This really doesn't answer my question. If hell is a real place, how did it come to be? Was it created? If so, by who?

 

[PureX]

Question: does god have free will?

Also, is he all good?

If we cannot answer those questions (and we can't), then what business do we have blaming God for ... anything? What even is 'God'? How can any human claim to know, let alone judge? Especially when it is very clear that we are responsible for a great deal of our own suffering.

 

[Soandso]

If we cannot answer those questions (and we can't), then what business do we have blaming God for ... anything? What even is 'God'? How can any human claim to know, let alone judge? Especially when it is very clear that we are responsible for a great deal of our own suffering.

I would agree. If you don't find the questions relevant, they might not be for you, then

In my original post, I wasn't trying to make a point about religious beliefs. Keep in mind, the question posed was from a perspective I had years ago - I've moved on since then. I'm just curious to know if it has an answer. It's not my intention to attack anyone's beliefs

 

[muhammad_isa]

If hell is a real place..

What is meant by "a real place"?
It surely exists, as something we can experience .. which is why it is portrayed as "flaming fire" .. something painful.

how did it come to be? Was it created?

Well, how are our experiences created?
We speak about physical pain, as if it something entirely different to mental pain .. but the result is similar .. ongoing anguish, that might not not seem to fade.

If so, by who?

Well, as I say, God is not a person .. He is infinite .. He never runs out of souls, for example.

Whoso doeth right it is for his soul, and whoso doeth wrong it is against it.

I do not believe that "something" known as God, literally tortures people in a blazing fire. It is a descriptive warning, that the consequences of sin can be very serious.

Solitary confinement alone is torturous .. it most certainly is not paradise.

 

[Soandso]

What is meant by "a real place"?
It surely exists, as something we can experience .. which is why it is portrayed as "flaming fire" .. something painful.


Well, how are our experiences created?
We speak about physical pain, as if it something entirely different to mental pain .. but the result is similar .. ongoing anguish, that might not not seem to fade.


Well, as I say, God is not a person .. He is infinite .. He never runs out of souls, for example.

Whoso doeth right it is for his soul, and whoso doeth wrong it is against it.

I do not believe that "something" known as God, literally tortures people in a blazing fire. It is a descriptive warning, that the consequences of sin can be very serious.

Solitary confinement alone is torturous .. it most certainly is not paradise.

Well there are different ideas of hell for sure. It seems to me that you are of the opinion that hell exists as a state of mind? If I am incorrect or misrepresenting that, please correct me

If so, I have another question then. What relation does sin have with us experiencing such a state? Do all sins cause mental distress?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Well there are different ideas of hell for sure. It seems to me that you are of the opinion that hell exists as a state of mind?

That is how I understand it, yes.
We can taste a similar type of "punishment" in this life, but it might not be due to our own shortcomings..

If so, I have another question then. What relation does sin have with us experiencing such a state? Do all sins cause mental distress?

No .. it may be that God forgves us, but sins are accumulative,
and they are also of different severity.
It is also not just about the individual .. the sins of others affect us as well.
Community is a very precious thing .. as is family.

 

[PureX]

I would agree. If you don't find the questions relevant, they might not be for you, then

In my original post, I wasn't trying to make a point about religious beliefs. Keep in mind, the question posed was from a perspective I had years ago - I've moved on since then. I'm just curious to know if it has an answer. It's not my intention to attack anyone's beliefs

I think the answer is that we are responsible for a great deal of human suffering. And not just the suffering we endure at each other's hands, but the suffering we endure by presuming that we should never have to suffer. And to avoid facing the reality of this we blame it all on an idea of "God" that we invent, and that we can pretend is withholding some magical solution from us.

So our real solution is two-fold. We need to start taking responsibility for the suffering we cause ourselves and each other via our absurd selfishness, and we need to try and be more humble and realistic in the ways we choose to imagine the nature and existence of 'God'. I think that to the degree that religion can help us do this, it can be embraced, while to the degree that it gets in the way of these goals, it should be rejected.