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Inherently wrong actions?

Acim

Revelation all the time
What qualifies as an "absolute moral fact"?

What is an objective fact?

Tis not I that am arguing for such things. Just using your rhetoric to say if you put those words before anything, they become equally objective facts as assertions you have made.

That it is immoral to vote for a Democrat? What's immoral about it?

(A little dose of what you've done in this thread....)

I repeat, it is objective moral fact that voting Democrat is wrong.

Here's the argument:

The moral realist may argue for the view that there are moral facts as follows:

(1) Moral sentences are sometimes true.

(2) A sentence is true only if the truth-making relation holds between it and the thing that makes it true.

(3) Thus, true moral sentences are true only because there holds the truth-making relation between them and the things that make them true.

Therefore,

(4) The things that make some moral sentences true must exist.

It is a short inference from the existence of the things that make some moral sentences true to the existence of moral facts.​

http://www.iep.utm.edu/moralrea/

And here is the rebuttal for that within the article.

If moral judgments are expressed by commands or prescriptions, then there cannot be literal moral truths. (Cf. Wright 1993. He argues that the focal discussion in the realist/antirealist debate should be about the acceptable theories of truth.) If there are no literal moral truths, then no moral judgments may be cited as evidence for knowing how the world is. Moral knowledge can no longer be considered as descriptive or propositional; or, no one is justified in believing certain things about the world in making moral judgments. This illustrates how the noncognitivist analysis of moral judgments can be escalated into the antirealist rejection of (those good names that we take for granted when we participate in moral practices such as) “moral truths” and “moral knowledge.” The antirealist’s noncognitivism threatens moral objectivity as well. Objectivity is to be found within the world. If moral judgments are not about accurately describing the world —for example, if moral judgments are about us —then moral objectivity will not be found within the world. If moral objectivity is to be found within us, then it is not the same objectivity with which we began, or, so had been the old antirealist’s way.

*Bold emphasis mine.

There are other rebuttals to this point (in the article).

I think my rebuttal, based on this thread, would say that if the moral sentence is: Raping a child is inherently wrong - then I would like to understand the truth-making relation that makes this true. For currently, I actually do believe by this logic that the moral sentence: Raping a child is inherently right, could be rationalized by similar logic. Though, obviously this will depend on what is provided as the truth-making relation.

I do prefer to change the example of what is currently being employed as the moral assertion, but will do my best to adapt to those who insist it is just as fair game as say why it is inherently wrong to vote for Democrats. As if those are on par with each other.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
I am not aware of any nation or society where it was either legal or encouraged for adults to rape 4-year-olds. You are welcomed to present the evidence that I'm wrong.

I'd rather not.

There is obviously nothing illegal about someone voting for a Democrat, so the question remains why you disapprove of it.

Because it is inherently wrong, and understood as an objective moral fact.

...is how I see you responding.

Me, I'd go with relatively wrong. Go ask any Republican (minus the Rhinos) if it is ever right to vote for a Democrat. Of course, I could elaborate, but not too happy that thread I started is lost in woods around 'child rape' and probably be equally less happy if somehow it got further off base with righteousness of partisan politics. But can't deny that I did partake in posted rhetoric utilizing either of these notions.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
Are there any actions that you think are inherently wrong?

It's people and other beings who serve Satan, rather than actions per se.


The part I highlighted in blue is why not.

Perhaps if you can up with actions that are inherently Satanical, it would help with why it relates to this threads main inquiry. As it stands now, given how I understand the concept, it's plausible all actions are Satanical and possible no actions are.
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
The part I highlighted in blue is why not.

Perhaps if you can up with actions that are inherently Satanical, it would help with why it relates to this threads main inquiry. As it stands now, given how I understand the concept, it's plausible all actions are Satanical and possible no actions are.

If someone kills in the service of Satan, is that not an action? If you want to divorce the person doing the killing from the action, is 'killing in the service of Satan' not an action? I would argue that 'killing in the service of Satan' is an action, and an inherently wrong one. However, 'killing' is not inherently wrong.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
If someone kills in the service of Satan, is that not an action? If you want to divorce the person doing the killing from the action, is 'killing in the service of Satan' not an action? I would argue that 'killing in the service of Satan' is an action, and an inherently wrong one. However, 'killing' is not inherently wrong.

From your perspective, if someone did an action AND told you that they did it as service to Satan, I can understand how you'd call this wrong. You may even say it is inherently wrong. Me, I'd see it as relatively wrong. Relative to you. And relative to the idea that some actions are Satanical.

I'm getting impression that actions which are generally perceived as "okay" could be inherently bad, for you, if in service to Satan. While other actions that are generally perceived as "horrible" could be okay / inherently right if not done in service to Satan. Such that if servant of Satan came to you and said, I, as servant of Satan, would like to clean your carpets and windows, no charge - this would be met with disapproval by you. But if they did it (for anyone), it would be inherently wrong. Whereas if holy person came to you and without even asking you, made your carpets 50 times more dirty than they are now and broke your windows, that would be okay. Perhaps not inherently right, but neither inherently wrong.

Am I conveying what you are saying correctly?
 

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
I (think) I agree with ArtieE here. You can't make moral decisions based on hypotheticals. We're seeing here the absurd lengths that can be carried to, and I think a lot of people are running their scenarios through a hypothetical matrix in their minds without actually bringing it up in their argument. It's like second-guessing, Monday-morning quarterbacking and using a time machine all rolled into one. All you can judge are the factual actions of a given individual up to a given point in time we know as the present.

Okay, perhaps you were not following the thread closely. Or perhaps I am misreading your comment here. You say you are agreeing with ArtieE, but I am the one who is refusing to play the hypothetical game. So while you say you agree with Artie, I believe you are in agreement with me. Perhaps you do not agree with what I would do considering the stupid and ridiculous hypothetical that was posed to me, but I am in agreement with you that you cannot make moral decisions based on hypotheticals. Let me refresh your memory how this thread has gone.

...What if raping the 8 year old girl somehow lead to a child that would end up saving humanity from a brutal and horrible extinction? Would it be moral then? You're being very limited in your moral thinking as if you have the power to dictate morality to everyone.

You see, here I was given a ridiculous hypothetical question. You see, there is no way in hell that I could know that by preventing a rape of an 8 year old girl I might be somehow causing humanity to suffer brutal and horrible extinction. I will do what I believe is right, regardless of the unknown consequences of my actions. If it should turn out that humanity suffers for it...oh well...that's not my problem. Its yours. And I can live with that.

So I responded:
Well, I do possess the moral authority to do what I deem necessary to those I might catch raping an 8 year old girl. And I can tell you if I caught someone doing something like that, the police would have absolutely nothing to do with it. It would all be over in a matter of seconds, and that person would surely never be capable of doing such a thing again.

Furthermore, I do not consider human existence such a great thing that I would allow the rape of an 8 year old child just for the sake of human existence. I couldn't care less if everyone were to die horrible deaths as a result of me preventing the rape of a child. None of you are worth allowing something that is so inherently wrong.

The end does not justify the means.

Oh well, my second paragraph is a pretty good display of what happens when emotion is allowed to rule one's thoughts. However, I pretty much stand by what I said.

If I knew that by preventing a rape of an 8 year old child would definitely result in the horrible suffering and extinction of humanity, I'd probably go through with it, extinguish the rapist, and save the child. Yes, yes, at your expense...Sorry. It's kind of an unintended consequence I guess. I'm not going to stand by and let an 8 year old child get raped, not to save you, and not to save me, and not to save anyone else.

Then ArtieE jumps in and says:
Allowing everyone to die horrible deaths when you could have prevented it isn't inherently wrong?

It was a stupid hypothetical I was given. Even so, I stick to what I said. Yes you all die for the sake of a little girl...it's just tough luck for you all, not my problem, and nothing I'm gonna lose any sleep over.

So I asked Artie a hypothetical which by the way he has not answered. And I can only wonder why.
I asked:
Let's see how you do with hypothetical. Lets imagine that you are brave enough to try to stop a rape that is in progress...you walk home and find a rapist in your home raping your daughter. Should I assume that although you are capable of stopping your daughter from being raped, you would allow the rapist to continue raping your daughter because of the remote possibility that a child may result from the rape of your daughter that will save the world from horrible death and extinction?

And here was Artie dodging the question.
You weren't talking hypothetically. You said and I quote:

"I do not consider human existence such a great thing that I would allow the rape of an 8 year old child just for the sake of human existence. I couldn't care less if everyone were to die horrible deaths as a result of me preventing the rape of a child."

You would prevent one child getting raped if you knew the consequence was that every other child dies a horrible death?

It doesn't matter to me if you agree with me. I've got one guy telling me that raping an 8 year old girl might be okay, which is BS. There is no case where raping an 8 year old girl is okay...not even if that rape could have saved the world from extinction. Of course this is my own personal opinion. But that is important, because it is my opinion. You see, it is my opinions, my beliefs, that govern my actions. What I believe is inherently right or inherently wrong is what is going to govern my actions, and as the stupid hypothetical I was given shows, it could be at the expense of the entire human race, and again...I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.
 
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Sonofason

Well-Known Member
Then if had you been in a position to save Jesus from a horrible death on the cross you would have done that because the end does not justify the means?
There is nothing wrong with dying on a cross. However, if I had the means to have stopped the Crucifixion of Christ I would have, because it is inherently wrong to nail innocent people to crosses.

If God is not capable of saving people from their sins without nailing someone to a cross, He is not capable of saving people.
 
There is nothing wrong with dying on a cross. However, if I had the means to have stopped the Crucifixion of Christ I would have, because it is inherently wrong to nail innocent people to crosses.

If God is not capable of saving people from their sins without nailing someone to a cross, He is not capable of saving people.

I would save him too(assuming such a person as Jesus of the Gospels existed). Why? Maybe Christianity is never born, and we colonized Mars in 1952 and avoided a few dozen wars as a result.

Then again, had he not existed someone would have invented him anyway(as could be the case)
 

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
I would save him too(assuming such a person as Jesus of the Gospels existed). Why? Maybe Christianity is never born, and we colonized Mars in 1952 and avoided a few dozen wars as a result.

Then again, had he not existed someone would have invented him anyway(as could be the case)
I personally wouldn't care what the result was. I just think it's right to save innocent people that are about to get hung on crosses. I probably would have been killed myself anyhow, and Christ would have succeeded in getting himself nailed to the cross, and saving those he came to save anyhow. As if I'm gonna change the plan of God.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
As a child that was raped, I'd like to think maybe I could relate to what you are getting at. But interestingly, you're not really explaining. I wrote long post and you dismissed many of my explanations. So be it. "Scumbag" truly strikes me as judging own self, and to be as clear as possible, I do not only mean specific you judging specific you, but am alluding to general principle that judgments are really about the person judging, though play a treacherous game in hiding that fact. So, if truly a mild term, then probably no problem for specific you if that is actually being said about specific you.

Because you aren't really explaining what makes for wrong, or what makes for rape (in all situations), then I'll just resort to reminder that everyone in this thread has shown they believe rape to be (at least relatively) wrong.
First of all, I was not calling you a scumbag. You inferred that one all on your own. I was referring to child rapists. I guess you must have missed that one.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
The existence of evil severely affects my karma. But just because you can't, that doesn't mean nobody should.



Pacifism, not exercising your right to self-defense no matter what, shifts that burden onto others. If all good people refused to defend themselves, there would be none left. True evil showed in the last century that it has no compunction against mass genocide. They have no guilt or shame, and without resistance, no limit.
You are free to believe whatever you wish but I will not harm another with one exception. If someone were harming my mother I would react. Other than that, I will continue to be a pacifist and if that means someone else has to take my place, so be it.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
And it's illegal because if all the citizens started killing other citizens just because they think they deserve to be killed that's not a society I would live in and feel safe in.
Neither would I, hence my not wishing to murder the scumbag that raped my daughter. I would prefer that the rules of society dealt with him, however ill intended they ended up being and how little they were enforced.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
Can you explain why it would be wrong (first) or inherently wrong?

I believe many on the thread believe many things are inherently wrong. I'm yet to observe one that when presented hasn't been met with a rebuttal of where or how it could be right / not wrong.

I did specifically bring up actions in OP. So, some say killing with malice is inherently wrong. Take out the "with malice part" (malice being challenging to observe, objectively) and suddenly the action isn't inherently wrong.

So, it'll be curious what actions you associate with "serving Satan" and how you go about arguing that those actions are inherently wrong.
I agree. In fact, I have found it amusing at times when I read the reactions of people to those who choose to follow a Satanic faith. So what if they do? I personally don't believe in Satan or any other demon or dreamed up creatures but that does not mean that someone else doesn't get comfort or solace or whatever they get from it. I have yet to have some Christians explain their collective aversion to the term and those who follow that faith,
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
So as long as the rapist determines that it isn't wrong for him to rape your 4-year-old daughter, you're good with that? You wouldn't dispute his determination on that, would you?
He didn't say that at all. He said that morality is subjective and he has a point. No morality is devoid of emotion. What may be right for you might be wrong for me. That was his point. Your making this kind of statement seems nothing more than inflammatory to me.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
You are free to believe whatever you wish but I will not harm another with one exception. If someone were harming my mother I would react. Other than that, I will continue to be a pacifist and if that means someone else has to take my place, so be it.
I will only harm somebody if not harming him would do greater harm.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
He didn't say that at all. He said that morality is subjective and he has a point. No morality is devoid of emotion. What may be right for you might be wrong for me. That was his point. Your making this kind of statement seems nothing more than inflammatory to me.
The moral thing to do in every situation is to do what is beneficial to people and avoid doing what is detrimental to people. People can of course disagree about what is beneficial or detrimental but the moral thing to do will always be what is beneficial and avoid doing what is detrimental. No subjective opinions can change that.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
We have been using rape as an example of an immoral act, and one of the things "masochists" do is to pretend to be the victim of rape.

As I noted, I recall posts where you said certain things to me suggesting that what I had posted was in some way wrong or bad. As I recall, I was merely providing information on the ineffectiveness of psychiatric drugs, maybe especially antidepressant drugs, and, further, the evidence that such drugs actually just make people worse by inducing chronicity and a number of other adverse effects, such as inducing weight gain. You certainly gave me the impression that you didn't approve of me posting what I had posted (which was actually just some facts from the peer-reviewed literature). If someone (like me) dissuades another person from taking antidepressants, there's nothing wrong or bad about that, is there?
It seems that you don't understand the moral nihilist position.

Nihilism (from the German "nihil" - "nothing) is a philosophical school that has various branches. Anyway, moral nihilism is the position that there is no absolute or objective foundation for morality, so it's impossible to posit moral truths.

From Wikipedia:

"Moral nihilism (also known as ethical nihilism) is the meta-ethical view that nothing is intrinsically moral or immoral. For example, a moral nihilist would say that killing someone, for whatever reason, is neither inherently right nor inherently wrong. Moral nihilists consider morality to be constructed, a complex set of rules and recommendations that may give a psychological, social, or economical advantage to its adherents, but is otherwise without universal or even relative truth in any sense.[1]

Moral nihilism is distinct from moral relativism, which does allow for actions to be right or wrong relative to a particular culture or individual, and moral universalism, which holds actions to be right or wrong in the same way for everyone everywhere. Insofar as only true statements can be known, moral nihilism implies moral skepticism."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_nihilism

Basically, it's a position of skepticism towards and refutation of positions that claim that there is somehow some universal moral order that can be adduced from, for example, the natural world or philosophy.

That does not mean that a moral nihilist would view all actions as conducive to well-being and that we just don't care. It just means that we recognize that whatever moral and ethical opinions we may hold are just subjective and have no foundation in any sort of truth claim. (Philosophical truth is not the same as "fact", by the way.) For example, we would still have our own preferences and goals, and perhaps a vision of how we would like society to be. But we just accept that those are merely products of our animal minds, with no foundation beyond that.

In expressivism:
"We are not making an effort to describe the way the world is. We are not trying to report on the moral features possessed by various actions, motives, or policies. Instead, we are venting our emotions, commanding others to act in certain ways, or revealing a plan of action. When we condemn torture, for instance, we are expressing our opposition to it, indicating our disgust at it, publicizing our reluctance to perform it, and strongly encouraging others not to go in for it. We can do all of these things without trying to say anything that is true."

So my displeasure at you counseling those on psychiatric drugs to stop taking them would just me expressing my own subjective opinion that them heeding your advice would not be conducive to their well-being. I cannot say that it is morally right or wrong, though.

As for rape, I cannot point to some abstract moral order whether in the natural world or in theological terms to assert that rape is inherently wrong, because I do not recognize moral features in the universe. There is nothing in the universe that tells me that rape is inherently wrong. The universe does not seem to care one way or another about our existence, let alone our well-being or wishes. As for deities, the same lack of evidence for a deity caring one way or another about how we behave is the same as the universe - nil (you could argue that, if they exist, then their opinion is also just subjective, especially in polytheistic systems). But I could assert that it's not desirable out of a feeling of empathy, the evidence of probable physical and mental harm that it results in and a desire to have an orderly society. When it comes to people who lack empathy towards others, I could attempt to dissuade them from raping another person because of the likely consequences their actions would have on their own well-being (i.e. they're very likely to end up in jail, socially maligned, etc.).
 
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