Inherently wrong actions?

[Saint Frankenstein]

As I said earlier, moral relativism is just a version of nihilism. Certainly moral "subjectivism" can only be nihilism. If you wish to distinguish what you advocate as "subjectivism" from nihilism, please do.

No, the two are not the same. Moral relativists would view truth claims vis-a-vis morality as subjective, whereas the moral nihilist rejects that there is any underlying truth at all, be it objective or subjective. Nihilism is a more extreme position than relativism.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I believe that serving Satan is (inherently) wrong because Satan is God's Eternal Enemy (and we should serve God).

Any action done in service of Satan is inherently wrong. Whether that is killing someone or giving in charity (in service of Satan).

By contrast, I don't believe any action is inherently wrong (unless it is done in service of Satan). That includes raping a child.

Interesting point of view! So if someone rapes a child in the service of God, that's not inherently wrong in your eyes?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

We have been using rape as an example of an immoral act, and one of the things "masochists" do is to pretend to be the victim of rape.

Also, that's not what that meme was getting at. It's pointing out the failure of the Christian "golden rule" in that it doesn't factor in people like masochists. Masochists want to be hurt in various ways, so a masochist following the "golden rule" would demonstrate how they wish to be treated by hurting others. Let's say that you have a strong desire to be killed or maimed, so if you followed the "golden rule", you'd go and do the same to others. Get it?

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

You are free to believe whatever you wish but I will not harm another with one exception. If someone were harming my mother I would react. Other than that, I will continue to be a pacifist and if that means someone else has to take my place, so be it.

Your mother, but not your father, spouse, children, grandchildren....somebody else's mother????

 

[ArtieE]

Basically, it's a position of skepticism towards and refutation of positions that claim that there is somehow some universal moral order that can be adduced from, for example, the natural world or philosophy.

The natural world evolved organisms with instincts like the survival instinct long before we came on the scene and started talking about morals and ethics. Moral systems are just systems we have invented that we think will enhance our chances of survival and successful reproduction if we follow them.

"We are not making an effort to describe the way the world is. We are not trying to report on the moral features possessed by various actions, motives, or policies. Instead, we are venting our emotions, commanding others to act in certain ways, or revealing a plan of action. When we condemn torture, for instance, we are expressing our opposition to it, indicating our disgust at it, publicizing our reluctance to perform it, and strongly encouraging others not to go in for it. We can do all of these things without trying to say anything that is true."

But the ultimate reason why these people condemn torture is because of instincts that evolved in organisms long before they were even born. A society where organisms went around torturing each other would be less likely to survive.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The natural world evolved organisms with instincts like the survival instinct long before we came on the scene and started talking about morals and ethics. Moral systems are just systems we have invented that we think will enhance our chances of survival and successful reproduction if we follow them.But the ultimate reason why these people condemn torture is because of instincts that evolved in organisms long before they were even born. A society where organisms went around torturing each other would be less likely to survive.

That social species create moral and ethical systems that are more conducive to maintaining a society, and therefore facilitate their survival, has nothing to do with claims of inherent truth.

 

[ArtieE]

Also, that's not what that meme was getting at. It's pointing out the failure of the Christian "golden rule" in that it doesn't factor in people like masochists. Masochists want to be hurt in various ways, so a masochist following the "golden rule" would demonstrate how they wish to be treated by hurting others. Let's say that you have a strong desire to be killed or maimed, so if you followed the "golden rule", you'd go and do the same to others. Get it?

LOL. If you are a masochist and want to be hurt you go out and find another masochist willing to hurt you and get hurt. What applies to a sub group of people doesn't apply to everybody you see.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

LOL. If you are a masochist and want to be hurt you go out and find another masochist willing to hurt you and get hurt. What applies to a sub group of people doesn't apply to everybody you see.

You're not understanding what I'm saying. Try to follow along.

 

[ArtieE]

You're not understanding what I'm saying. Try to follow along.

I understand what you were saying. What you were saying just doesn't make any sense. The Golden Rule apples for masochists too, just replace the word "others" with the word "masochists".

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I understand what you were saying. What you were saying just doesn't make any sense. The Golden Rule apples for masochists too, just replace the word "others" with the word "masochist".

The point of it is to point out that the golden rule doesn't apply to everyone and so it's not some perfect concept. Not everyone wants to be treated the same as you wish to be treated.

 

[ArtieE]

The point of it is to point out that the golden rule doesn't apply to everyone and so it's not some perfect concept. Not everyone wants to be treated the same as you wish to be treated.

The Golden Rule says "One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself". A masochist can say "A masochist should treat other masochists as he would like other masochists to treat himself." It's not the wording that is important it's the principle.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The Golden Rule says "One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself". A masochist can say "A masochist should treat other masochists as he would like other masochists to treat himself." It's not the wording that is important it's the principle.

You're the one nit-picking over the wording, not me. I'm just pointing out that the concept isn't universal because it assumes that everyone wants to be treated the same way. That's all I was saying. If you add any other conclusion to what I said, that's on you.

 

[JoStories]

I really could not care less about your religious beliefs, nor do I care about your muddled opinions on what I might believe based on same.

Focus man.

You can cast whatever actions you wish as 'good' or 'bad' based on whatever arbitrary hubris or religious nonsense you choose, but to repeat myself once again, these exist only in your head. There are no wrong or right actions, only actions, and rationalizations. What is 'wrong' for you isn't necessarily wrong for me. There are no moral absolutes, just personal judgements (often infused with megalomania and self importance of course)

I can see your point but you have to admit that society is not about to allow a child to be raped, whether you see it as right or wrong or whatever. Some actions are simply morally reprehensible, no matter what culture one might live in. Those actions are based on what the society sees as 'wrong'. I get that your view of this and in some ways it makes an odd sort of sense but I continue to believe that some actions are simply wrong, period.

 

[JoStories]

It's people and other beings who serve Satan, rather than actions per se.

Seriously? Prove there is such a being. The entire notion is simply ludicrous.

 

[viole]

Are there any actions that you think are inherently wrong?

I do not.

Not sure what there could be to debate, but I do think it profound to fully realize no action is inherently wrong. I also find it easy to take that for granted once you realize this truth.

I think certain things are wrong in a relative sense. Like I don't wish to be killed, so I do think killing is wrong in a relative way. But I don't see it as inherently wrong because a) everyone (or everything) in physical existence will die/be killed and b) because of my theological understandings. The latter covers a whole lot of sub-points that perhaps amount to profound points that are possibly seen as ridiculous from a non-theological perspective - such as Perfect Love knows there is no death, thus killing is not truly possible.

But I start this thread cause I am interested in what actions, if any, people think are inherently wrong. And to help stipulate that a bit, I do mean wrong regardless of geographic location or local laws.

I came pretty close to adding to the inquiry by asking if you (general you) think there are any wrong thoughts? I actually think that is more direct inquiry, but not sure if that just clouds things. But really looking for any thoughts, words or actions that people think are inherently wrong and why they reach that conclusion.

Kind of hoping non-theist types respond cause I anticipate certain theist types to say certain things are inherently wrong because their doctrine says so.

Well, if God created the best of all possible worlds, as it is to be expected from a perfect God, then I would go so far as to conclude that whatever we do is not only not inherently wrong, but it is inherently right, or morally neutral.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

Seriously? Prove there is such a being. The entire notion is simply ludicrous.

As one who, figuratively at least, DOES serve Satan, I can't help but wonder at all the blown up buildings and sawn off heads in the name of Allah that might qualify as 'right' action by this same standard.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

From your perspective, if someone did an action AND told you that they did it as service to Satan, I can understand how you'd call this wrong. You may even say it is inherently wrong. Me, I'd see it as relatively wrong. Relative to you. And relative to the idea that some actions are Satanical.

I believe this is inherently wrong (because this is what God tells me - I believe it is inherently wrong from God's Perspective, so it is not relative to me alone). You believe otherwise. Because I believe it is inherently wrong from God's Perspective, nothing you can say will make me see otherwise. (I believe) It is just inherently wrong. For you not. Hence my earlier statement that, in this at least, I don't think we're going to make much progress in this particular aspect of this discussion.

I'm getting impression that actions which are generally perceived as "okay" could be inherently bad, for you, if in service to Satan. While other actions that are generally perceived as "horrible" could be okay / inherently right if not done in service to Satan. Such that if servant of Satan came to you and said, I, as servant of Satan, would like to clean your carpets and windows, no charge - this would be met with disapproval by you. But if they did it (for anyone), it would be inherently wrong.

Correct. Although I would add that actions generally perceived as 'horrible' could be a very good thing/inherently right if done in service of God.

Whereas if holy person came to you and without even asking you, made your carpets 50 times more dirty than they are now and broke your windows, that would be okay. Perhaps not inherently right, but neither inherently wrong.

That might be okay (whether or not it would be okay would depend on other factors). But I agree, not inherently wrong.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Interesting point of view! So if someone rapes a child in the service of God, that's not inherently wrong in your eyes?

Correct.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Seriously? Prove there is such a being. The entire notion is simply ludicrous.

Deadly seriously. I can no more prove that there is such a being than I can prove that God or spirits exist (in terms that everyone will find acceptable as proof). But both God and Satan speak to me (and I with them), which is proof enough for me.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Correct.

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