Insanity and RF topics

[Unveiled Artist]

With coronavirus, both the situation and our knowledge are changing rapidly, so it should not be surprising that what may seem to be the same topic may come up repeatedly, in the context of some new information.

On RF the same topics and points have been made. I think the only thing somewhat new is the Information thread aside from the numbers.

 

[exchemist]

On RF the same topics and points have been made. I think the only thing somewhat new is the Information thread aside from the numbers.

Eh?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Doing things repeatedly and expecting different results isn't called "insanity;" it's called "training."

Training??? On RF? When people say for the umpteenth time that thousands of people are dying, people don't listen to science, and the repeated logistics of how the efficiency of the vaccine and the same quotes from CDC? We get the point.

But in general, no. Not training. Unless RF people are trying to teach and/or convert people to their views religious or political. Not train, though.

Heh... wait a minute, then.

I take it you haven't been watching the threads about Texas's new anti-abortion laws. Most of the points in there are exactly the same as the last discussion of abortion... which are the same as the points from the time before that when abortion came up, and on, and on...

I haven't.

In the COVID-19 threads, venting at irresponsible people has benefit for me at least. It's cathartic for me even if it doesn't change their minds.

Well, both sides vent. It's normal until it causes division.

A lot of scripture that gets quoted here is done by people who aren't "reading the room" properly. Of course people aren't going to care about the scripture passage if the person quoting it hasn't bothered to establish why people should care about the scripture.

I see the same with politics. I haven't heard "reading the room" right, though. What do you mean by that?

It seems to me that a lot of theists are so certain about their worldview that they have real problems appreciating the perspective of people who don't share their fundamental beliefs.

Politics likewise, no?

Also, it's worth pointing out that we get the same arguments here from multiple people.

It seems like there are a handful of bad books with "irrefutable arguments for God" or the like, and they get taught to people who - clad in the "armour of truth" and wielding this new apologetic "sword of righteousness - come to forums like this to convince atheists, not aware that the arguments they're using were refuted a long, long time ago and have been brough forward in the forum many, many times already

Yeah. That's why the OP. I think we're used to the religious repeats but the political repeats. I didn't know people fuss about politics almost as if its a religion with CDC and Fox as their bibles.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Eh?

Morning jibber jabber. Pretty much our coronavirus points have been made already. New information is a give or take.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Training??? On RF? When people say for the umpteenth time that thousands of people are dying, people don't listen to science, and the repeated logistics of how the efficiency of the vaccine and the same quotes from CDC? We get the point.

But in general, no. Not training. Unless RF people are trying to teach and/or convert people to their views religious or political. Not train, though.

You may be reading too much into my comment. It's the standard response to the inane, too-often-repeated expression you decided to put into the mouth of Einstein.

I haven't.

It happens a lot. In many areas. Everything from Aquinas's "Five Ways" to those "science in the Quran" threads to same-sex marriage. The same tired arguments over and over from different people.

Well, both sides vent. It's normal until it causes division.

I'm fine with causing division with some people.

I see the same with politics. I haven't heard "reading the room" right, though. What do you mean by that?

read the room

"Reading the room" means observing your audience to get a sense of how your message will be received. Making an effort to understand the people listening to what you're saying.

Politics likewise, no?

In the last few years it certainly seems that way. It seems like there's very little reality underpinning the beliefs of Trumpists in the US or PPC voters here in Canada.

Yeah. That's why the OP. I think we're used to the religious repeats but the political repeats. I didn't know people fuss about politics almost as if its a religion with CDC and Fox as their bibles.

I see what you did there.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You may be reading too much into my comment. It's the standard response to the inane, too-often-repeated expression you decided to put into the mouth of Einstein.

I said contributed.

It happens a lot. In many areas. Everything from Aquinas's "Five Ways" to those "science in the Quran" threads to same-sex marriage. The same tired arguments over and over from different people.

Pretty much.

I'm fine with causing division with some people.

It's caused harm for the good of the people all throughout (US) history. Im surprised somewhat it's happening in my life time. It makes the common quote do unto others obsolete. In person no one seems to care outwardly. I would never known there was a pandemic other than the masks.

Reading the room" means observing your audience to get a sense of how your message will be received. Making an effort to understand the people listening to what you're saying.

Ok

In the last few years it certainly seems that way. It seems like there's very little reality underpinning the beliefs of Trumpists in the US or PPC voters here in Canada.

It's sad.

 

[exchemist]

You may be reading too much into my comment. It's the standard response to the inane, too-often-repeated expression you decided to put into the mouth of Einstein.


It happens a lot. In many areas. Everything from Aquinas's "Five Ways" to those "science in the Quran" threads to same-sex marriage. The same tired arguments over and over from different people.


I'm fine with causing division with some people.



read the room

"Reading the room" means observing your audience to get a sense of how your message will be received. Making an effort to understand the people listening to what you're saying.


In the last few years it certainly seems that way. It seems like there's very little reality underpinning the beliefs of Trumpists in the US or PPC voters here in Canada.


I see what you did there.

Indeed. I am often irritated by the misattribution of all manner of sayings to Einstein. In this case, there is an article about it here:
Insanity Is Doing the Same Thing Over and Over Again and Expecting Different Results – Quote Investigator

 

[Valjean]

Since joining RF, I‘ve learned how insane some evolutionists are in regards to your quote. They keep repeating the same stuff over and over and over, again and again and again, thinking they’ll get a different belief out of an opposer.

That's what makes discussion with irrational creationists so exasperating. We keep patiently trying to point out facts, point out falsehoods, and point out faulty reasoning, and it just seems to go in one ear and out the other. Our points are totally ignored.

It seems they follow each other around to gang up on an opposer of the theory of evolution. They say nearly the same thing as the other individuals of their gang, yet each one demands their own personal response from the opposer. It’s like they are in a contest with each other racing to be the one that’s going to convince the opposer to come to their side.

No. Logic is logic, and facts are facts. When a creationist or theist makes a false statement, everyone aware of the error will point out the same error. When a creationist makes a logical error, all the educated people will point out the same error. We're not conspiring, we're seeing the fame faulty facts, arguments and reasoning.
If you claim a leopard has stripes, don't be surprised when lots of people chime in that it has spots. It's not a conspiracy.

Then, the opposer may go to a different forum unrelated, but evolution comes up again. An evolutionist gives the exact same long explanations as though the opposer has never heard it all explained to them before. Insanity, total insanity.

Of course! If you take a class in mathematics, chemistry or biology, anywhere in the world, you shouldn't be surprised if the same facts are repeatedly cited.
Claim 2+2= 5, in any thread, to any group of educated people, and you expect exactly the same correction on every thread, and in every situation. Noöne's colluding. There is no conspiracy.

Just out of curiosity, what are some of the common facts or arguments you find being repeated by educated people?

 

[Firelight]

You have to remember that they have a major limitation: "evolutionists" are stuck arguing only what's supported by evidence.

Creationists don't have this limitation, so they're able to get more creative with their arguments.

No. Evolutionists, also, argue that the “evidence” itself is fact. They trust the information that has been written about in a book or a report, they trust the author(s) who wrote the book or report, and they trust the words of the author(s).

I’m not familiar with Creationists or their arguments.

 

[crossfire]

Insanity is asking the same question (or saying the same thing repeatedly) and expecting a different response.

Adapted quote contributed to Einstein. Is there some truth to this in RF conversations?

I don't see this near as much on religious topics as I see it on coronavirus threads.

Does Einstein have a point and/or does repeating oneself have some benefit?

When some believers repeat scriptures by heart maybe one out of fifty nonbelievers they speak with may be interested in being a convert. However, religiously and politically after the third or fourth rephrase and repeat the intention looses it's umph. Does it work?

What say you?

I've never been much of a mantra chanter.

 

[Firelight]

That's what makes discussion with irrational creationists so exasperating. We keep patiently trying to point out facts, point out falsehoods, and point out faulty reasoning, and it just seems to go in one ear and out the other. Our points are totally ignored.
No. Logic is logic, and facts are facts. When a creationist or theist makes a false statement, everyone aware of the error will point out the same error. When a creationist makes a logical error, all the educated people will point out the same error. We're not conspiring, we're seeing the fame faulty facts, arguments and reasoning.
If you claim a leopard has stripes, don't be surprised when lots of people chime in that it has spots. It's not a conspiracy.
Of course! If you take a class in mathematics, chemistry or biology, anywhere in the world, you shouldn't be surprised if the same facts are repeatedly cited.
Claim 2+2= 5, in any thread, to any group of educated people, and you expect exactly the same correction on every thread, and in every situation. Noöne's colluding. There is no conspiracy.

Just out of curiosity, what are some of the common facts or arguments you find being repeated by educated people?

Whatever information you may accept and call “fact”, is not accepted as “fact” by everyone. Some evolution believers just can’t handle this fact. So, some will keep saying the same stuff over and over and over trying to change this fact.

I have not been on RF long enough to have seen any common facts or arguments being repeated by educated people.

 

[Valjean]

No. Evolutionists, also, argue that the “evidence” itself is fact. They trust the information that has been written about in a book or a report, they trust the author(s) who wrote the book or report, and they trust the words of the author(s).

The evidence does consist of facts.

You're confusing science with religion and folklore.
"Evolutionists"-- all scientist -- trust nothing. Trust is the mortal enemy of science. Science trusts nothing that isn't evidenced, tested and peer reviewed.
It's the religious who trust ancient authors and hold old writings to be sacrosanct.

I’m not familiar with Creationists or their arguments.

So how do you counter them? Scientists would be very interested in any contention that held water.

A fact is a real thing; a true thing. Real evidence is factual, and, preferably, tested. Scientific conclusions are based on factual, observed evidence.
Scientists don't trust, they test; they attempt to disprove their beliefs. They accept only what can be observed by anyone who cares to look. Even then, they test their evidence and their conclusions, and invite everyone to submit objections and contrary interpretations. This is what's called peer review.

The scientific process makes every attempt do disprove both the evidence and the conclusions drawn from it. Any hypothesis not so tested cannot advance to the status of theory.

This is what's has made science so amazingly successful in advancing human knowledge and understanding over the last century or so.
For thousands of years people relied on conjecture, tradition, common knowledge and experts. Knowledge proceeded at a snail's pace.

 

[Valjean]

Whatever information you may accept and call “fact”, is not accepted as “fact” by everyone.

True, there are stil flat-Earthers out there, and people who believe disease is caused by evil spirits or witches. But extreme skepticism of tradition, authority, observations and 'facts' is what has made science so successful.
Scientists are the most skeptical people in the world.

Some evolution believers just can’t handle this fact. So, some will keep saying the same stuff over and over and over trying to change this fact.

What 'fact' -- that there are non-believers?

Evolution, and the theory of evolution, are some of the most extensively evidenced and supported facts and theories in science. There is more, and more consilient, evidence for evolution than there is for the spherical Earth or the germ theories.
I'm sorry if you're unaware of this. I'd consider suing your high school.

I have not been on RF long enough to have seen any common facts or arguments being repeated by educated people.

Educated people all have the same facts. They'll expound the same theories, and make the same objections to logical errors and false claims.

Firelight, I don't know how you managed not to learn what the scientific method is, or why scientists believe this or that, or what evidence they rely on to come to their conclusions.

 

[Firelight]

You're confusing science with religion and folklore.
"Evolutionists"-- all scientist -- trust nothing. Trust is the mortal enemy of science. Science trusts nothing that isn't evidenced, tested and peer reviewed.
It's the religious who trust ancient authors and hold old writings to be sacrosanct.

So how do you counter them? Scientists would be very interested in any contention that held water.

A fact is a real thing; a true thing. Real evidence is factual, and, preferably, tested. Scientific conclusions are based on factual, observed evidence.
Scientists don't trust, they test; they attempt to disprove their beliefs. They accept only what can be observed by anyone who cares to look. Even then, they test their evidence and their conclusions, and invite everyone to submit objections and contrary interpretations. This is what's called peer review.

The scientific process makes every attempt do disprove both the evidence and the conclusions drawn from it. Any hypothesis not so tested cannot advance to the status of theory.

This is what's has made science so amazingly successful in advancing human knowledge and understanding over the last century or so.
For thousands of years people relied on conjecture, tradition, common knowledge and experts. Knowledge proceeded at a snail's pace.

And there it is! Repeated yet again.

 

[Firelight]

True, there are stil flat-Earthers out there, and people who believe disease is caused by evil spirits or witches. But extreme skepticism of tradition, authority, observations and 'facts' is what has made science so successful.
Scientists are the most skeptical people in the world.
What 'fact' -- that there are non-believers?

Evolution, and the theory of evolution, are some of the most extensively evidenced and supported facts and theories in science. There is more, and more consilient, evidence for evolution than there is for the spherical Earth or the germ theories.
I'm sorry if you're unaware of this. I'd consider suing your high school.
Educated people all have the same facts. They'll expound the same theories, and make the same objections to logical errors and false claims.

Firelight, I don't know how you managed not to learn what the scientific method is, or why scientists believe this or that, or what evidence they rely on to come to their conclusions.

...and again!

I’ve already heard it all, many times over, which was the point of the OP.

 

[Valjean]

Yet you seem to be of a different opinion....

 

[Heyo]

Insanity is asking the same question (or saying the same thing repeatedly) and expecting a different response.

Adapted quote contributed to Einstein. Is there some truth to this in RF conversations?

I don't see this near as much on religious topics as I see it on coronavirus threads.

Does Einstein have a point and/or does repeating oneself have some benefit?

When some believers repeat scriptures by heart maybe one out of fifty nonbelievers they speak with may be interested in being a convert. However, religiously and politically after the third or fourth rephrase and repeat the intention looses it's umph. Does it work?

What say you?

I see different reasons for repeat threads:
1. New members (who didn't research the archives or didn't find what they are looking for)
2. New data or a new way to represent the data
3. Amnesia/senility (here are some people who's memory might not be so sharp)
4. New members (who might be easy victims, so the apologists try again)
5. Nostalgia (we had a nice conversation last time I brought this up)
6. Unresolved topics (i.e. the last thread died on a tangent or by trolling, let's hope this will survive until I got my answers)

I blame most of the repeats on #3 followed by #4. I will engage in case of #4 so the apologists don't win by attrition.

 

[Firelight]

Yet you seem to be of a different opinion....

Of a different opinion than whom? The OP? You?

 

[Valjean]

Of a different opinion than whom? The OP? You?

You don't strike me as a believer in evolution.

 

[Firelight]

You don't strike me as a believer in evolution.

I‘m not a believer in evolution as far as scientists and philosophers saying that a fish evolved into an amphibian, an amphibian into a reptile, and on up to apes evolving into humans.

The OP asks if it is ‘insanity to say the same things repeatedly expecting a different response.’ I explained how evolutionists do that on RF. You helped illustrate my point by repeating pretty much the same information that the other evolutionists do on RF. Hearing the same info for the umpteenth time still did not influence me to change my beliefs, thoughts, or opinions about evolution. (I am using the word evolutionist to mean people who believe in evolution.)