Institutional Racism

[JamieJ1989]

What is institutional racism?

It seems like this nebulous phrase has just come out of no where, and made a prodigious impact on the international stage in the last few years.

If I where to define institutional racism it would be;

1) A law or policy in government which is intrinsically racist in its intent.
2) A system in which a company, public service or any establishment of the like, uses, and in its use, is intrinsically racist in intent.

When asking someone who believes that institutional racism exists, as in the above definitions, they come up short of giving any credible, coherent answer that even remotely implies the existence of it. The only scenarios they can give are isolated incidences, which are not, at all, in anyway, sufficient evidence that institutional racism exists.

I think if anything, the black lives matter movement is a catalyst which will cause the engendering of institutional racism through association. It's clearly leading an entire generation of black youths to think the institutions of their respective countries are against them, this is not positive, supportive, helpful, and clearly a fallacy in its conclusion.

If anyone can provide tangible evidence of institutional racism, I will happily admit that there is an intrinsic problem, and support the movement. Until then i'm not obliged to believe any of the nebulous statements and slogans that this movement purports.

 

[George-ananda]

What is institutional racism?

It seems like this nebulous phrase has just come out of no where, and made a prodigious impact on the international stage in the last few years.

If I where to define institutional racism it would be;

1) A law or policy in government which is intrinsically racist in its intent.
2) A system in which a company, public service or any establishment of the like, uses, and in its use, is intrinsically racist in intent.

When asking someone who believes that institutional racism exists, as in the above definitions, they come up short of giving any credible, coherent answer that even remotely implies the existence of it. The only scenarios they can give are isolated incidences, which are not, at all, in anyway, sufficient evidence that institutional racism exists.

I don't see institutional racism in my country, America (that is if you don't call so-called Affirmitive Action programs racist against those not given Affirmitive treatment). Institutional racism is illegal. Some more subtle racism by/against all races exist but that is a part of human nature that laws can't change.

I think if anything, the black lives matter movement is a catalyst which will cause the engendering of institutional racism through association. It's clearly leading an entire generation of black youths to think the institutions of their respective countries are against them, this is not positive, supportive, helpful, and clearly a fallacy in its conclusion.

You said that very well and I agree.

 

[Augustus]

If anyone can provide tangible evidence of institutional racism, I will happily admit that there is an intrinsic problem, and support the movement. Until then i'm not obliged to believe any of the nebulous statements and slogans that this movement purports.

I've never really paid much attention to the term, and don't really know how other people use it so what I say might not reflect common usage.

What I would suggest it means is that it relates to some organisation/sector that while purportedly appearing to be equal in opportunities, produces outcomes that seem to suggest a racial bias.

So for example, if there was a large company that had 10,000 workers (Iet's say it's part of the knowledge economy, not manual labour) 35% of whom were minorities. If the top 100 managers were 99% white then you would appear to have clear evidence of institutional racism as the probabilities of this being the result of randomness are pretty small.

So it is racism as measured by outcomes, rather than explicit, observable or personal racist incidents.

Many things in real life are far more complex than that simplistic example, and differences in outcomes may at times be attributable to other causes. I've never really looked at any data though so am in no place to really make specific claims.

There have been studies in Western countries though that show a CV with an 'ethnic' name is less likely to get a response than an identical CV with a 'white' name though, this would suggest there is evidence that institutional racism exists to some extent. However, the extent to which it exists is obviously contentious and highly politicised.

 

[George-ananda]

So it is racism as measured by outcomes, rather than explicit, observable or personal racist incidents.

I don't like racism measured by 'outcomes' as opposed to 'opportunity'. For example, is the NBA racist against white and Asian players making their teams? I don't think you can make the claim of racism against the NBA because it is possible that the disproportionately large number of black players MAY be due to some genetic factors so given equal 'opportunity' there will be a disproportionate number of black players. I personally believe in 'equality of opportunity' because I personally believe some racial stereotypes really do have some genetic basis (as politically incorrect and unpopular as that will make me with many).

I think because of these genetic factors, you will make a mess social-engineering society to have proportionate racial composition across the board.

 

[Augustus]

I don't like racism measured by 'outcomes' as opposed to 'opportunity'. For example, is the NBA racist against white and Asian players making their teams? I don't think you can make the claim of racism against the NBA because it is possible that the disproportionately large number of black players MAY be due to some genetic factors so given equal 'opportunity' there will be a disproportionate number of black players. I personally believe in 'equality of opportunity' because I personally believe some racial stereotypes really do have some genetic basis (as politically incorrect and unpopular as that will make me with many).

I think because of these genetic factors, you will make a mess social-engineering society to have proportionate racial composition across the board.

As I noted, there may be other reasons for inequality in outcomes.

There is not necessarily a clear divide between opportunity and outcomes though. If you are less likely to get a job interview purely because you have an 'ethnic' name (outcome), it is hard to argue in favour of equality in of opportunity in this situation.

 

[JamieJ1989]

So for example, if there was a large company that had 10,000 workers (Iet's say it's part of the knowledge economy, not manual labour) 35% of whom were minorities. If the top 100 managers were 99% white then you would appear to have clear evidence of institutional racism as the probabilities of this being the result of randomness are pretty small.

So it is racism as measured by outcomes, rather than explicit, observable or personal racist incidents.

Yes agreed with George, you can't claim racism on this issue. You also can't claim racism on ethnic sounding names, for the simple fact that you can't be racist to a noun, people who are more alike with white sounding names just might prefer white sounding names as they're more familiar with them, so have a natural bias to them.

 

[George-ananda]

If you are less likely to get a job interview purely because you have an 'ethnic' name (outcome), it is hard to argue in favour of equality in of opportunity in this situation.

Yes, subtle racism by/against people of all races will occur. Many people prefer 'one of their own' whatever the race. It is human nature for many, and you make a good point, and there is no perfect remedy for that that won't cause other issues.

 

[Koldo]

Yes agreed with George, you can't claim racism on this issue. You also can't claim racism on ethnic sounding names, for the simple fact that you can't be racist to a noun, people who are more alike with white sounding names just might prefer white sounding names as they're more familiar with them, so have a natural bias to them.

That sounds incredibly far-fetched when thinking of this happening at a large scale.

 

[Lyndon]

If someone isn't seeing racism anywhere they look is a sure sign they are racist themselves.

 

[JamieJ1989]

That sounds incredibly far-fetched when thinking of this happening at a large scale.

It's not farfetched for the simple reason stated, you can't be racist to a noun.

If someone isn't seeing racism anywhere they look is a sure sign they are racist themselves.

I didn't say there wasn't racism, I said there is currently no tangible evidence for institutional racism. If all you can do is tell me I'm racist, with no argument backing up my original concern, then it's a clear admission in to the weakness of the institutional racism narrative.

 

[Lyndon]

I fail to see any logic in that!!

 

[JamieJ1989]

I fail to see any logic in that!!

You've made a false statement suggesting I can't see any racism, i didn't say racism doesn't exist, I said there is currently no credible evidence for institutional racism, so i'm not obliged to believe it exists. You haven't addressed my concern regarding institutional racism with any evidence, you just resorted to an insult, which has the effect of enfeebling your argument.

 

[Augustus]

It's not farfetched for the simple reason stated, you can't be racist to a noun.

What a ridiculous argument.

Do you understand the relationship that exists between words and 'things'? Most people learn this at a fairly young age.

The noun has a referent which is a person. It's not the noun that is applying for the job.

Try going to a political rally and shouting out "I'm going to kill Hillary Clinton!" Then explain to the police officers who arrest you "That's pretty far fetched, how can I kill a noun?". I'm sure they will be powerless in the face of your logic and will be forced to let you go.

If it is not related to racial bias, how would you explain that identical CVs get a 30% lower response rate if they have 'black' names?

 

[JamieJ1989]

Do you understand the relationship that exists between words and 'things'? Most people learn this at a fairly young age.

Yes it's called association, its whats going to create institutional racism.

Try going to a political rally and shouting out "I'm going to kill Hillary Clinton!" Then explain to the police officers who arrest you "That's pretty far fetched, how can I kill a noun?". I'm sure they will be powerless in the face of your logic and will be forced to let you go.

This is not the same, you're asking someone to pick a candidate based on the information on a piece of paper in one case, and shouting with intent, directly at the individual at the centre of the rally with the other. Completely different.

If it is not related to racial bias, how would you explain that identical CVs get a 30% lower response rate if they have 'black' names?

Because they have a preference to people with names they hear more often. It's called association. Do you understand the relationship that exists between words and 'things'?

 

[Lyndon]

You've made a false statement suggesting I can't see any racism, i didn't say racism doesn't exist, I said there is currently no credible evidence for institutional racism, so i'm not obliged to believe it exists. You haven't addressed my concern regarding institutional racism with any evidence, you just resorted to an insult, which has the effect of enfeebling your argument.

You're talking nonsense, I never said any such thing about you, and whatever I say has no effect whatsoever on whether institutional racism exists or not, get real.

 

[JamieJ1989]

You're talking nonsense, I never said any such thing about you, and whatever I say has no effect whatsoever on whether institutional racism exists or not, get real.

So who or what was your first comment aimed at?

 

[oldbadger]

I didn't say there wasn't racism, I said there is currently no tangible evidence for institutional racism.

Hello.......
But have you looked?
How good an investigator are you?
We have levels of prejuduce and bigotry in the West that are fairly high, but institutions are very clever at hiding conditions such as institutional racism.

I would like to see a Jamaican Rastafarian delivery driver who plays golf manage to get membership of the local Gold-Club. Yes...... that would be a fantastic experience!

I would like to see a Sikh Shop owner succeed in gaining membership of the R----l T-----e Yacht Club.

But you're not interested in the reality or existence of Institutional Racism, methinks......
Methinks you're aiiming your sights at Black Lives, Sir!
Now........... before we get stuck into any kind of deep meaningful conversation, please will you just post back to me your complete and total confirmation that BLACK LIVES DO MATTER?

.............why do I have the feeling that you won't be able to say it?

 

[Augustus]

This is not the same, you're asking someone to pick a candidate based on the information on a piece of paper in one case, and shouting with intent, directly at the individual at the centre of the rally with the other. Completely different.

Write a nice letter to the police detailing your intent to kill Hillary Clinton then. Just words on a page. Just a noun. Nothing real.

"It's just a noun officers. How can you threaten the life of a noun? I demand my freedom!"

Because they have a preference to people with names they hear more often. It's called association. Do you understand the relationship that exists between words and 'things'?

You are actually talking about the relationship between words, and people and things now, but your 'association' is pretty much correct, although your conclusion is not. If changing from Jose to Joe has a big effect, is this because Jose is such an unfamiliar name to them?

While familiarity with a word might have a small positive effect, it is far less influential than the range of connotations, stereotypes and associated emotions that derive from exposure to a word. People create meaning via a complex system of perceptions, knowledge and experiences.

An example, people are very familiar with the names Osama and Muhammad, so should these attract more attention than a less common 'white' name like Bartholomew? Correct?

What about an Adolf? With such a well known name his phone should be ringing off the hook!

 

[JamieJ1989]

Hello.......
But have you looked?
How good an investigator are you?
We have levels of prejuduce and bigotry in the West that are fairly high, but institutions are very clever at hiding conditions such as institutional racism.

Many have looked, that's why they can't produce any evidence to suggest it exists. The west clearly has the lowest levels of racism and bigotry in the world, thats why we're the most multiculturally diverse regions on the planet.

I would like to see a Jamaican Rastafarian delivery driver who plays golf manage to get membership of the local Gold-Club. Yes...... that would be a fantastic experience!

I would like to see a Sikh Shop owner succeed in gaining membership of the R----l T-----e Yacht Club.

Is this an actual argument? There isn't a Jamaican Rastafarian at the golf club so there must be institutional racism? If this isn't what you're suggesting please write more coherently.

But you're not interested in the reality or existence of Institutional Racism, methinks......
Methinks you're aiiming your sights at Black Lives, Sir!
Now........... before we get stuck into any kind of deep meaningful conversation, please will you just post back to me your complete and total confirmation that BLACK LIVES DO MATTER?

All lives matter, including Blacks.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

All lives matter, including Blacks.

Spoiler: Logic of 'All Lives Matter'

http://instagr.am/p/6VLnf7ne7S/

Oh, and there's this:

Spoiler: Why All Lives Matter misses the point