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Insurrectionist removed from office under the 14th amendment.

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
There can't be any real discussion of philosophies when there is no consensus about reality. Evolution - not real, climate change - not real (or at least not anthropogenic), Covid - just a flu that will go away, insurrection - never happened. Some, too many, people live in a dream world and are not in a closed institution. Some of them run for Congress, some of them get elected.

There won't ever be a consensus on every topic, and not everyone can be expected to have the same level of knowledge on every subject. It shouldn't stand in the way of discussing basic philosophical issues, such as about America and what it was founded upon.

Biden's recent speech mentioned the "soul of America" - an abstract topic which isn't actually "real" in terms of concrete physical reality, but it might still have meaning to people. Or even Trump's famous slogan "Make America Great Again." Does anyone really want to argue about whether America was great in the past or whether we can be great again (or even what it means to be "great")? Have there been any real deep, meaningful discussions about that, and if so, where? That's what seems to be missing amidst all the yelling, screaming, and backbiting.
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
Yes, your credibility is terrible because you post untrue things consistently. Your own posts expose your judgment as very poor, and that is because you have decided untrue things are true, and you repeat untrue things in a group that is very well educated and well informed by reputable media sources.

I'm not sure why you keep posting untrue things, because you are being contasntly corrected. You don't seem to be aware of your own disadvantage here. This isn't Disinformation Fellowship, this is open debate with smart and well informed people.


I have not posted anything that is in true. I have fat thumbs and tend to typo.
You often dislike what I post, but your conclusion is wrong.

You keep taking g shots at my education and intelligence. So we are done you can keep you unloving, unkind, uninformed bigotry to yourself I’m not wast more time with someone who is too busy attacking me to actually discuss the topic at hand.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I have not posted anything that is in true. I have fat thumbs and tend to typo.
You often dislike what I post, but your conclusion is wrong.

You keep taking g shots at my education and intelligence. So we are done you can keep you unloving, unkind, uninformed bigotry to yourself I’m not wast more time with someone who is too busy attacking me to actually discuss the topic at hand.
You regularly post false claims. Probably because you use dishonest sources. Many people do that because they want to believe their lies. It gives them comfort and what is actually true is quite often uncomfortable.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I’m 100% for holding people accountable.

Unless it's Trump, right?

I'm pretty sure Trump is narcissistic and a jerk. He also broke the law

Then you'd like to see him prosecuted for that, right?

I'm back to the point of why so many only want to hold Trump to a given behavior standard and not their own party?

It's not about party. It's about criminality. The standard is the legal one. Also, Trump's crimes and prosecutions are unrelated to any other crimes except those of his co-conspirators. You keep attempting to deflect to imagined crimes by Democrats, which would be irrelevant to Trump's criminality even were they real crimes. Somebody who may have voted Democratic just murdered a young school teacher. Perhaps you'd like to put the Trump prosecutions on hold until that gets cleared up, or tie the two crimes together such that we don't prosecute one unless we prosecute both. It doesn't work like that.

you are supporting those engage in the violent overthrow of the nation.

You're projecting now. You support Trump, the chief insurrectionist. I support the DOJ and the FBI in their efforts to bring him to justice.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It seems to me that it does a far greater disservice to democracy to portray it as so fragile and weak as to be so easily manipulated and subverted like this.

Except that that's what appears to be the case. The last election was very close to being overturned. A handful of Republicans thwarted Trump. Since then, changes have been made by Republicans to suppress Democratic voters and to strengthen their hold on determining election outcomes in multiple jurisdictions. I wouldn't bet on democracy surviving in America. It has too many enemies now that brown and black people are in a position to outvote the shrinking white majority. The Republicans have no use for democracy if it can't keep them in power.

To suggest that "one man" did it all by himself is to give far too much credit to that man.

Agreed. Trump was only the source of the order to steal the election. It was organized by others at his request. We saw evidence of people like Stone and Bannon working with the paramilitary groups later charged with seditious conspiracy.

He never struck me as all that diabolical or some kind of fiendish mastermind.

His mind is mud. That's apparent with the secret documents scandal. That's apparent with his hiring of the like of Giuliani and Powell. But he couldn't be more malevolent.

Strictly speaking, if they were insurrectionists, then they made war against the United States, which makes them traitors according to the Constitution. That calls for the death penalty. If you were in a position to do so, would you sentence them to death?

Trump, yes. Also, many of his consigliare.
 
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SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I have not posted anything that is in true. I have fat thumbs and tend to typo.
You often dislike what I post, but your conclusion is wrong.

You keep taking g shots at my education and intelligence. So we are done you can keep you unloving, unkind, uninformed bigotry to yourself I’m not wast more time with someone who is too busy attacking me to actually discuss the topic at hand.
What a great way to never have to actually defend your position or back up anything you say. Or actually get anywhere.
Just claim offense, declare yourself right and ignore everybody who disagrees with you! Lather, rinse, repeat. o_O
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
This claim of yours about Democrats saying that Trump did now win has already been refuted. It is time to find a new argument. Yes, Democrats were disgusted because Trump lost the popular vote and still won the election. But no one tried to say that Hillary actually won, nor did they try to send bogus electors. Nor did they try to run an insurrection.

Republicans or their supporters did all of those things. That is why what Republicans did was treason. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

And though there were violent protests during BL< events they were not "frequent". They were rare. But peaceful protests are boring. They do not make the news. As a result you only heard of the violent protests. Do you need the numbers ran again? I can do it for you. In my city there were protests. They were not violent. We did not make the news. In Portland there were protests. And they became very violent. You did hear about them.

BLM violent protests did do property damage. That is a fact. But the insurrectionists attempted to overthrow the government. That is a much more serious event.
And as I point out the BLM movement and protests were fighting for civil rights. They were protesting police brutality. This is a justified demand by the public. The marches were well organized and typically well-mannered. The violence and riots were rare and often came from people not art of the BLM protest. There were even white supremacists who instigated violence and riots themselves to make the BLM marches look bad.

The Jan 6 protest was against a fair election that Trump lied about. Trump lied, his followers believed him, they acted against the USA deliberately and illegally. There was nothing to protest. Trump lost. That was the core of the Jan 6 protest, an illegal set of actions against the USA.
 
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F1fan

Veteran Member
I have not posted anything that is in true. I have fat thumbs and tend to typo.
What?

You often dislike what I post, but your conclusion is wrong.
It's not just dislike, it is that you have views that are factually incorrect. You have adopted a great deal of dogmatic beliefs that have no basis in reality. You reject evolution as science. You reject and dismiss experts in science like biology, climate change, and epidemiology. You offer no credentials for your judgments.

You keep taking g shots at my education and intelligence.
You present views that are inconsistent with smart and well-informed people, and you refuse to listen to those who correct your errors with credible sources. So that is on you. You have to earn respect.

So we are done you can keep you unloving, unkind, uninformed bigotry to yourself I’m not wast more time with someone who is too busy attacking me to actually discuss the topic at hand.
Get your facts straight, post reputable sources, THEN you are discussing. You posting inaccurate things and well-informed people correcting you is not discussion. You have work to do on yourself.
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
I follow US politics almost as much as I follow Australian...and occasionally moreso. Sounds crazy, but American content is ubiquitous, and when you guys sneeze, we eventually get a cold, so to speak. So my offer to review whatever you want to present is sincere, but I can't take your interpretation at word. I don't mean that to be offensive, as I would want to do my own research on any political topic, presented by anyone.



I mean...kind of? To me the overarching principle is to have representative elections. Obviously, election security is a major component of that. However, much like ANY form of security, you can't promote it to the exclusion of other considerations or you'll literally break the system.

Simple examples of what I mean is that voting access is a crucial democratic requirement. Questioning both the system in place and the results in self-serving and knee-jerk fashion is a major issue also.
(And to be clear, that rhetoric is being consistently rolled out by both sides over the last ten years, although I would argue there is a difference in intensity and scale).




Sorry, no idea what that means. Perhaps auto-correct has struck?



Bit to unpack there. As an Australian, it's hard for me to think of Murdoch as 'not mainstream media', as he dominates the media landscape here. I think the bigger issue is polarisation of the media, and people being able to 'choose' their facts. I invest way more time than I used to in vetting media sources, for sure. Recent news from CNN around how they're planning to change to a more centrist and balanced format, and remove some of the more judgemental and frankly belittling messaging they've been running with more recently are good, but I worry they'll see 'balanced' as meaning a Republican, a democrat, and a host. What we need is mature and nuanced discussion. Still...the intent is good, and needed, so we'll see. Until proven otherwise, though, I tend to be fussy with sources.



In general, I agree.

Hi, Sorry about the fat thumbs ongoing issue with my phone. The rules wanted by the left for voting are extremely lax. Like I can go to a nursing home and help a hundred people fill out ballots and deliver them. The right to exercise the right to own a gun they want massive restrictions on, but call almost any form of voter ID racist. Its been awhile since I was down under but in the US you can't do much without an ID (An issue I have with both the LEFT and the Right)

iu



Here is a bit on Clinton camping's involvement
Hillary Clinton campaign and DNC fined by FEC over Trump-Russia dossier research - CNNPolitics

FISA abuse
Senator Breaks Down Why The Obama Administration’s Unmasking Scandal Is A Big Deal | The Daily Wire
FISA court slams FBI conduct in Carter Page surveillance warrant applications | CNN Politics

In the US Fox is the leader of "right leaning" media. Frankly they are pretty middle of the road. They have had several left leaning folks off and on.
However in the US much of the media thinks Bernie Sanders is middle of the road. So anyone in the Republican Party is about 3 standard deviations to the far right.
I have many bones to pick with many folks. On here I get stuck arguing that we should no hang Trump. Even though he did break several laws its far less than I've seen done by many others in DC.
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
Unless it's Trump, right?



Then you'd like to see him prosecuted for that, right?



It's not about party. It's about criminality. The standard is the legal one. Also, Trump's crimes and prosecutions are unrelated to any other crimes except those of his co-conspirators. You keep attempting to deflect to imagined crimes by Democrats, which would be irrelevant to Trump's criminality even were they real crimes. Somebody who may have voted Democratic just murdered a young school teacher. Perhaps you'd like to put the Trump prosecutions on hold until that gets cleared up, or tie the two crimes together such that we don't prosecute one unless we prosecute both. It doesn't work like that.



You're projecting now. You support Trump, the chief insurrectionist. I support the DOJ and the FBI in their efforts to bring him to justice.


Yes I think every elected official and professional bureaucrat who breaks the law should be investigated and tried.

My issue is that way too often only the political enemy is up for being investigated. That destroys nations. Its not irrelevant at all Obama took classified stuff from the White house. No one cares. Trump takes stuff its an FBI raid.
Biden threatens to without aid to the Ukraine no one cares. Trump is accused of it he gets impeached.

BLM riots and kills you support them. The Right riots and they all need to be punished.


This is what makes for a banana republic. Its not about law its about power and any and all crimes are ignored or justified when done by your side. This mindset and practice are a much bigger risk to the nation then Trump and all his nonsense.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes I think every elected official and professional bureaucrat who breaks the law should be investigated and tried.

That doesn't come through in your posting, which is all deflection away from Trump's crimes with whataboutism. You say you support accountability and the prosecution of criminals, but I'm pretty sure that you don't want Trump prosecuted for his crimes.

My issue is that way too often only the political enemy is up for being investigated.

You've made the claim that investigating Trump is political, but not the case that it is. Yes, a politician, Trump, was involved, but he is not the target of multiple jurisdictions for assorted crimes because he is a politician or a Republican. It's because he broke the law. And not just speeding laws. Serious crimes against the United States. Trump harmed America more than the 9/11 attack. America came together for a time, buried its dead, built its memorials, and beefed up its antiterrorism defenses. What Trump did is tearing the nation apart, was a lasting assault on American institutions, and will continue to harm America for years or decades to come. This is not political or partisan.

Its not irrelevant at all Obama took classified stuff from the White house. No one cares. Trump takes stuff its an FBI raid.

False equivalence and irrelevant even if it weren't. Suppose Obama also stole top secret documents indicating the nuclear capability of foreign governments and kept them in his basement to make this equivalent. Even if that had happened, it wouldn't be a reason not to prosecute Trump for the same crime. Your argument appears to be that Trump should be excused because you think others were excused. It doesn't work that way.

Trump baselessly bashed Obama for transferring records from the White House to Chicago. Here's why Obama was allowed while Trump is under scrutiny by the FBI. | Business Insider México | Noticias pensadas para ti

Biden threatens to withhold aid to the Ukraine no one cares. Trump is accused of it he gets impeached.

More false equivalence and deflection. Biden's actions weren't an impeachable offense, and weren't done for personal political advantage like Trump's:

Despite appeals from Ukraine, Biden admin holds back additional military aid to Kyiv amid diplomatic push (nbcnews.com)

BLM riots and kills you support them. The Right riots and they all need to be punished

Yes. I support BLM. If any broke the law, prosecute them. And also yes, I do not support Trump or his insurrection. Any that broke the law should be prosecuted. The right is responsible for both riots, one with its overt racism and its taunting of otherwise peaceful protestors, the other because of Trump's call for violence also for personal political advantage.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
BLM riots and kills you support them. The Right riots and they all need to be punished.
There were literal thousands of BLM protests involving millions of people. Less than 5% of them resulted in violence. People involved in violence at these protests are still being prosecuted.

There was one MAGA protest organized to protest the ratification of the 2020 election (spurred by provable lies spread by Trump and elected Republicans) and it resulted in illegal entry of the Capitol building, open death threats against politicians and six people dead.

Comparing BLM to January 6th makes Republicans look even worse than they already do. Find another comparison.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Hi, Sorry about the fat thumbs ongoing issue with my phone. The rules wanted by the left for voting are extremely lax. Like I can go to a nursing home and help a hundred people fill out ballots and deliver them. The right to exercise the right to own a gun they want massive restrictions on, but call almost any form of voter ID racist. Its been awhile since I was down under but in the US you can't do much without an ID (An issue I have with both the LEFT and the Right)

iu



Here is a bit on Clinton camping's involvement
Hillary Clinton campaign and DNC fined by FEC over Trump-Russia dossier research - CNNPolitics

FISA abuse
Senator Breaks Down Why The Obama Administration’s Unmasking Scandal Is A Big Deal | The Daily Wire
FISA court slams FBI conduct in Carter Page surveillance warrant applications | CNN Politics

In the US Fox is the leader of "right leaning" media. Frankly they are pretty middle of the road. They have had several left leaning folks off and on.
However in the US much of the media thinks Bernie Sanders is middle of the road. So anyone in the Republican Party is about 3 standard deviations to the far right.
I have many bones to pick with many folks. On here I get stuck arguing that we should no hang Trump. Even though he did break several laws its far less than I've seen done by many others in DC.
LOL! Failed analogy. And quite a in its own words "STUPID" one at that. You do need an ID to register to vote. You should not need one once that you have done that..

If you go to the same store all of the time you do not need to show an ID to buy booze or smokes. Nor do you need one if you are clearly old enough. You do need one to rent a house or apartment. You do not need one every time that you try to get into your home. In fact the same applies to a hotel, and it is called "registering". Once you have registered with a hotel you do not need to show your ID.

Demanding ID's is racist since nonwhite people tend to be poorer than others and losing an ID is more frequent among the poor due to living conditions and due to what is an easy document to replace if you have money can be an all day chore if one is poor.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
There were literal thousands of BLM protests involving millions of people. Less than 5% of them resulted in violence. People involved in violence at these protests are still being prosecuted.

There was one MAGA protest organized to protest the ratification of the 2020 election (spurred by provable lies spread by Trump and elected Republicans) and it resulted in illegal entry of the Capitol building, open death threats against politicians and six people dead.

Comparing BLM to January 6th makes Republicans look even worse than they already do. Find another comparison.
I think this needs a little more clarification. Of all of the protests only 5% of them became violent. That is the protests, not he protesters themselves. When it came to the violent protests those again were a small percentage of the original protesting crowd.

So you have a small percentage of 5% to get your "violent protesters" from.

With the Trump January 6 insurrection to be fair only a small percentage entered the Capitol but 100% of them were protesting for a false reason. They lost and they were sore losers. Can you think of anything more pathetic to protest about?
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Except that that's what appears to be the case. The last election was very close to being overturned. A handful of Republicans thwarted Trump. Since then, changes have been made by Republicans to suppress Democratic voters and to strengthen their hold on determining election outcomes in multiple jurisdictions. I wouldn't bet on democracy surviving in America. It has too many enemies now that brown and black people are in a position to outvote the shrinking white majority. The Republicans have no use for democracy if it can't keep them in power.

I don't think the election was really all that close to being overturned. The Electoral College had already met; it was already a done deal. The structure and functions of government are not so unstable or fragile. What you're suggesting is that it's fragile because an increasing number of people just don't believe in it or don't have any real faith in it, which is a far different matter. While that may be disconcerting, it doesn't describe a situation where the government could be in imminent danger of being overthrown.

If the military gets co-opted, then that would be a far more serious concern, although there's no evidence of that happening on any widespread level. An authoritarian government can not be established or maintained without strong support from the military. The Bolsheviks won because they won over the army, and Hitler gained power by appeasing the military as well. The role of the military is essential in the kinds of seizures of power you're talking about.

But our military doesn't operate that way. That's not their style.

Unless you have an evidenced argument to demonstrate that the military is that unstable or highly susceptible to political machinations, then I don't think the structure is all that fragile.

Perhaps in the long term, there might be some concerns, which is why it's a good idea for Americans to discuss and work out their differences. But I don't see that we're in any kind of immediate or clear and present danger.
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
That doesn't come through in your posting, which is all deflection away from Trump's crimes with whataboutism. You say you support accountability and the prosecution of criminals, but I'm pretty sure that you don't want Trump prosecuted for his crimes.



You've made the claim that investigating Trump is political, but not the case that it is. Yes, a politician, Trump, was involved, but he is not the target of multiple jurisdictions for assorted crimes because he is a politician or a Republican. It's because he broke the law. And not just speeding laws. Serious crimes against the United States. Trump harmed America more than the 9/11 attack. America came together for a time, buried its dead, built its memorials, and beefed up its antiterrorism defenses. What Trump did is tearing the nation apart, was a lasting assault on American institutions, and will continue to harm America for years or decades to come. This is not political or partisan.



False equivalence and irrelevant even if it weren't. Suppose Obama also stole top secret documents indicating the nuclear capability of foreign governments and kept them in his basement to make this equivalent. Even if that had happened, it wouldn't be a reason not to prosecute Trump for the same crime. Your argument appears to be that Trump should be excused because you think others were excused. It doesn't work that way.

Trump baselessly bashed Obama for transferring records from the White House to Chicago. Here's why Obama was allowed while Trump is under scrutiny by the FBI. | Business Insider México | Noticias pensadas para ti



More false equivalence and deflection. Biden's actions weren't an impeachable offense, and weren't done for personal political advantage like Trump's:

Despite appeals from Ukraine, Biden admin holds back additional military aid to Kyiv amid diplomatic push (nbcnews.com)



Yes. I support BLM. If any broke the law, prosecute them. And also yes, I do not support Trump or his insurrection. Any that broke the law should be prosecuted. The right is responsible for both riots, one with its overt racism and its taunting of otherwise peaceful protestors, the other because of Trump's call for violence also for personal political advantage.

II can't control how you read things. I have commented many times that I have problems with Trump. I refuse to single him out though when what he did was more or less the same and a great many others.

Tearing apart the institutions by:
Appointing judge that actually think the constitution matters? No
Reducing burdensome regulations on business? No
Trying to promote peace in the middle east? No
Trying to make peace with North Korea? No
Having the lowest minority unemployment in history? No
Trying to enforce the immigration laws we have? No

Thinking the election was stolen? Debatable, but again not new and something Hillary and many others on the left did for year without evidence. (He at least has some).
End runs around congers on funding? Yes, just like every other president has tried in my life time.
Spending too much money? Yes, but again like everyone else.
Being Rude? Well not great, but that big of a threat.

You blame for racism is miss placed. The odd nutt job on right is not much of a problem. The systemic assault on the black community lead by, LBJ and the like would be far more accurate targets.

So Obama can take any docs he wants, trump can't.

"
Biden's actions weren't an impeachable offense, and weren't done for personal political advantage like Trump's:
"
The attempt to pretend that Biden holding money hostage from the Ukraine to stop them from investigating his son is somehow noble? Seriously do you actually think I would by that excuse?


Anyhow if you want a real conversation great, but I got to be honest I find accusing Trump of being worse then 9/11 while defending Biden's behavior in the Ukraine beyond any level of fact or rational. This is the very problem I'm talking about. The ID the side of the person not the facts being used to determine what should happen.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I don't have time to get much into this thread, so let me just say that it blows my mind how those who claim to be Christian can justify what Trump has been doing as his words and behavior are the polar opposite of those of Jesus of Nazareth. Compare the latter's Sermon On the Mount and what's said at any of Trump's rallies, and are their words and demeanor even somewhat similar?

IMO, all too many Christians have basically "sold their soul" to the lowest bidder-- Donald J. Trump.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What you're suggesting is that it's fragile because an increasing number of people just don't believe in it or don't have any real faith in it, which is a far different matter. While that may be disconcerting, it doesn't describe a situation where the government could be in imminent danger of being overthrown.

We're probably thinking of different things. I'm not discussing a violent coup. I'm referring to the Republicans fixing elections and controlling who wins them, and in so doing, control the government. America is, in my opinion, very close to that now. This silent coup has been in progress for decades now, since the Reagan years, when class warfare was silently and successfully waged. America is already well on its way to becoming a plutocracy and kleptocracy. I would expect that to continue accelerating under Republican rule as it did under Reagan, Bush, and Trump, which I assume will be indefinite if they control the elections. Do you like your Social Security and Medicare? Who will protect you from the Republicans if they gain the power to control the elections? Go ahead and complain, seniors. Nobody's listening. Go ahead and show your discontent at the polls. Oh, what a shame. Your candidate lost. Maybe next time. Go ahead and start a petition and a referendum, and see if that helps. That's what the death of democracy looks like in silent coups. Dog and pony show elections.

I don't see that we're in any kind of immediate or clear and present danger.

No, not of nukes or martial law or FEMA camps. But I think America is very close to being lost to becoming a place where almost nobody is happy. Isn't it pretty much there already? Imagine the last two years under Republican rule. Bye-bye Medicare drug prices coming down. Bye-bye effective vaccine roll-out. Bye-bye infrastructure investment. Bye-bye climate mitigation measures. Bye-bye holding elected officials accountable for their crimes. That's the danger I see.

So Obama can take any docs he wants, trump can't.

No.

Thinking the election was stolen? Debatable

No, it's not debatable, and Trump didn't think the election was stolen. He was trying to steal it. Spreading disinformation and undermining confidence in the election process was a moral crime. But it was followed by multiple literal crimes. That's a far cry from merely thinking that the election was stolen. The mini-Trumps are already doing that, claiming that recent losses were due to election malfeasance. That's not why Trump deserves prison.

You blame for racism is miss placed. The odd nutt job on right is not much of a problem.

Racism is rampant in America. The odd nutjob you refer to is half of America.

I got to be honest I find accusing Trump of being worse then 9/11 while defending Biden's behavior in the Ukraine beyond any level of fact or rational.

With all due respect, I'm not very interested in what somebody defending Trump considers rational. Or moral.

You didn't try to rebut the argument. I generally assume when that happens it's because you can't. If you could rebut my argument, you would have. 9/11 didn't directly affect even a percent of America, and the effect was limited to the loss of life and property. Trump has damaged almost every American indefinitely, including his supporters like you even if you can't see that.

That's who he is and what he does. He harms and destroys. He lies and steals. He's selfish and disloyal. He's vengeful and sadistic. He's racist and misogynistic. He's a sexual predator and serial adulterer. He has an insatiable lust for power and adoration. What good comes from such a person?

Who that has been touched by Trump isn't worse off for it now? Multiple members of his orbit are being investigated or have already been indicted. Congresspersons helping him will be harmed when the dust settles. Have you heard the latest version of MAGA - making attorneys get attorneys? Many who came to DC Jan 6 at his request are now ruined. Those that cooperated in the false electors fraud for him will be or are history. Does that mean anything to you?
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
We're probably thinking of different things. I'm not discussing a violent coup. I'm referring to the Republicans fixing elections and controlling who wins them, and in so doing, control the government. America is, in my opinion, very close to that now. This silent coup has been in progress for decades now, since the Reagan years, when class warfare was silently and successfully waged. America is already well on its way to becoming a plutocracy and kleptocracy. I would expect that to continue accelerating under Republican rule as it did under Reagan, Bush, and Trump, which I assume will be indefinite if they control the elections. Do you like your Social Security and Medicare? Who will protect you from the Republicans if they gain the power to control the elections? Go ahead and complain, seniors. Nobody's listening. Go ahead and show your discontent at the polls. Oh, what a shame. Your candidate lost. Maybe next time. Go ahead and start a petition and a referendum, and see if that helps. That's what the death of democracy looks like in silent coups. Dog and pony show elections.



No, not of nukes or martial law or FEMA camps. But I think America is very close to being lost to becoming a place where almost nobody is happy. Isn't it pretty much there already? Imagine the last two years under Republican rule. Bye-bye Medicare drug prices coming down. Bye-bye effective vaccine roll-out. Bye-bye infrastructure investment. Bye-bye climate mitigation measures. Bye-bye holding elected officials accountable for their crimes. That's the danger I see.



No.



No, it's not debatable, and Trump didn't think the election was stolen. He was trying to steal it. Spreading disinformation and undermining confidence in the election process was a moral crime. But it was followed by multiple literal crimes. That's a far cry from merely thinking that the election was stolen. The mini-Trumps are already doing that, claiming that recent losses were due to election malfeasance. That's not why Trump deserves prison.



Racism is rampant in America. The odd nutjob you refer to is half of America.



With all due respect, I'm not very interested in what somebody defending Trump considers rational. Or moral.

You didn't try to rebut the argument. I generally assume when that happens it's because you can't. If you could rebut my argument, you would have. 9/11 didn't directly affect even a percent of America, and the effect was limited to the loss of life and property. Trump has damaged almost every American indefinitely, including his supporters like you even if you can't see that.

That's who he is and what he does. He harms and destroys. He lies and steals. He's selfish and disloyal. He's vengeful and sadistic. He's racist and misogynistic. He's a sexual predator and serial adulterer. He has an insatiable lust for power and adoration. What good comes from such a person?

Who that has been touched by Trump isn't worse off for it now? Multiple members of his orbit are being investigated or have already been indicted. Congresspersons helping him will be harmed when the dust settles. Have you heard the latest version of MAGA - making attorneys get attorneys? Many who came to DC Jan 6 at his request are now ruined. Those that cooperated in the false electors fraud for him will be or are history. Does that mean anything to you?


Wow I'm done wasting my time my bigotry meter for the week is already full
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
We're probably thinking of different things. I'm not discussing a violent coup. I'm referring to the Republicans fixing elections and controlling who wins them, and in so doing, control the government. America is, in my opinion, very close to that now. This silent coup has been in progress for decades now, since the Reagan years, when class warfare was silently and successfully waged. America is already well on its way to becoming a plutocracy and kleptocracy. I would expect that to continue accelerating under Republican rule as it did under Reagan, Bush, and Trump, which I assume will be indefinite if they control the elections. Do you like your Social Security and Medicare? Who will protect you from the Republicans if they gain the power to control the elections? Go ahead and complain, seniors. Nobody's listening. Go ahead and show your discontent at the polls. Oh, what a shame. Your candidate lost. Maybe next time. Go ahead and start a petition and a referendum, and see if that helps. That's what the death of democracy looks like in silent coups. Dog and pony show elections.

Some might argue that we've already been living under a plutocracy for many decades now. I've heard some refer to a coup which allegedly occurred on November 22, 1963. But things like that typically get dismissed as conspiracy theories.

Americans have known about and mistrusted political machines since the 19th century. It wasn't really until the 1960s that the country just barely started to address issues with voting and democracy, and even then, a lot of people may not be convinced.

Personally, I find the most corrupt processes exist when it comes to the internal politics of parties and how candidates are nominated. That seems to be the main issue. It's part of the problem within the Republican Party, as Trump-favored candidates are going against moderate Republicans in the primaries. But Democratic primaries can also be problematic. That's the real pity of it all, since it should really be a slam dunk for the Dems, but the problem is the candidates they nominate are just sooooo bad.

In fact, ever since Walter Mondale, I've had nothing but eternal frustration with the candidates the Democrats pick. Then there was that infamous footage of Michael Dukakis on a tank, which was actually quite symbolic of just how pathetic they had gotten.

To me, the Republicans have always been the party of Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan. Plutocracy and kleptocracy? Of course. Wars for profit? Yep. But the thing is, the Democrats have been there all along. And there have been some Democrats who have also been caught feathering their own nests and other mischief, so they're not immune to corruption and malfeasance.

As with any election, the best people can hope for is the lesser of two evils. That's what America has been stuck with, in terms of "democracy." Other countries seem to be more democratic, at least in the sense that they have more than two parties represented in their parliament or legislature. Theoretically, Americans can vote for any party they wish, but the political culture is inundated with this overriding two-party mindset that makes it next to impossible for any third or fourth party to make any kind of inroads. I've always considered that mindset to be a bane to a democratic system. As with the problems you're pointing out here, it's also a profound weakness which Americans might consider seriously addressing.

This is part of the problem with a system which allows big money and big business free rein to utilize their resources to buy media time and employ whatever tactics are necessary to win. It's not always necessary to spend the most to win, but they still need a substantial amount.

The whole pity of it all is that, even if people can see the causes of our problems and the weaknesses within the system and the fragility you mentioned, even despite all that, no one really wants to do much to change the system and shore up these weaknesses.

No, not of nukes or martial law or FEMA camps. But I think America is very close to being lost to becoming a place where almost nobody is happy. Isn't it pretty much there already? Imagine the last two years under Republican rule. Bye-bye Medicare drug prices coming down. Bye-bye effective vaccine roll-out. Bye-bye infrastructure investment. Bye-bye climate mitigation measures. Bye-bye holding elected officials accountable for their crimes. That's the danger I see.

Well, we've certainly been in a slow decline since the 70s. I've seen it all during my own lifetime. A lot of the damage was self-inflicted, thanks to a lot of myopic, reckless policies. A lot of people seemed to know that things were going downhill, at least in one way or another. "The country is going down the tubes" has become a common trope in popular culture, as it has been for decades.

If people have instinctively known that the country has been going down the tubes for all this time, then sooner or later, we'll probably get there.
 
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