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Intelligent Design, but is God Smart Enough?

Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
  • Texas sharpshooter fallacy : "an informal fallacy which is committed when differences in data are ignored, but similarities are stressed. From this reasoning, a false conclusion is inferred."
If one complies a complete list of the claims of science regarding the origin and history of the universe and one listing all of the analogous ideas from the Bible, there would be almost no overlap. If you take the tiny bit of overlap as you have done while ignoring all of the items on one list or the other but not both, you create the false impression that the authors of the scriptures had inexplicable knowledge, when in fact, as the two lists would reveal, they knew almost nothing. Scripture missed the inflationary epoch, symmetry breaking, particle condensation, nucleosynthesis, the decoupling of matter and radiation, the hundreds of millions of years before starlight, the 9 billion year delay before the formation of the sun and earth, the moon creating impact event, the cooling of the earth with crust formation, and the evolution of life.

And assuming Muslims accept the Genesis account of creation, it is replete with claims that science contradicts - the timeline and order of events is antiscientific. From Polymath:

Let's go through what Genesis actually says and compare, shall we?(Polymath)

1) The Earth was without form and void and darkness was on the face of the deep.
a. Notice that the Earth already existed.
b. There was a 'deep'. In the original, it was certainly interpreted as water, but we can allow an interpretation as 'space'. In any case, space and the Earth already exist.

2) Light.
a. This is out of order. Light would have existed LONG before the Earth. The Earth is only 4.5 billion years old, while the universe is about 13.7 billion years. There were stars long before the Earth and they would have emitted light.

3) God divided the light from the darkness. Darkness was called Night and light was called Day. This is the first day.
a. This regards darkness as a substance separate from the substance of light. This is wrong.
b. Night and Day happen because of the rotation of the Earth with respect to the sun. But the sun isn't formed until later. This is out of order.

4) God divided the waters by a firmament, calling the firmament 'heaven'. This is the second day.
a. This makes clear that the 'deep' is actually made of water.
b. No firmament has ever been discovered. So this isn't even in the *actual* order.
c. Your quote mistakes this for the formation of an atmosphere, which is clearly wrong.

5) Dry land, grass, seeded plants, fruit trees.
a. Seeded plants existed LONG before flowering plants (and fruit trees are flowering plants)
b. Grass was even later than flowering plants (since grass is, technically a flowering plant).
c. There would have been sea creatures LONG before land plants.

6) Formation of the Sun and Moon
a. The sun would have actually preceded the Earth. This is badly out of order.
b. The Moon would have formed before land plants. This is also badly out of order.
c. The sun is required for Day and Night. Again, badly out of order.

7) Whales, other sea creatures, and winged fowl.
a. In actuality, birds (winged fowl) existed before grass. Again, out of order.
b. There would have been sea creatures in the oceans before land plants.
c. Whales evolved from land animals. Again, way out of order.
d. The first whales evolved long after birds.

8) Land animals. Specifically cattle and those that 'creepeth' on the Earth.
a. There were land animals way before there were flowering plants or grass. Out of order.
b. Modern cattle came after humans (although other bovines existed before, so this is ambiguous

Now that we have more complete lists of the scriptural and scientific accounts, it's apparent how little the two have in common, which is actually an argument against scriptural prescience, not one for it as you have implied.

Strawman argument. What's the Bible got to do with GOD? It's mostly written by unknown people who may have had contact with various Prophets and Messengers, thus it contains some revelation from GOD, some historical events, some storytelling and poetry from various ancient tribes and communities. It also contains forged and edited books. Not a good source to be quoting in an attempt to show GOD got things wrong or made mistakes.
 

Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
If the God of Abraham is smart enough to produce intelligent life, why has he not done so?
Don't be like that. On the whole, humans have done many great things with their GOD given intellect to better mankind.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Talking about Abraham's God: What proof do we have that this god is smart enough to design human life and all of existence?

If there is a God, - the Abrahamic God is not it.

As evidence I use their on words, in their own books.

This "God" has all human characteristics - including envy, anger, murders babies, destroys large groups of earthlings because some are supposedly evil, etc., His laws allow real slavery, ownership of women, rape, etc.

He is vengeful, holds grudges, murders the innocent, kills his own supposed people for "some" of them doing wrong, orders them to murder men, women, children, and even dumb animals, of the tribes that - OWNED - the supposed promised land, etc.

In the Bible the “supposed” evil Satan is only responsible "supposedly," for six deaths.

But the Bible “God” is responsible for an estimated 24 MILLION deaths, - obviously of which – million had to be innocent children!

This is not God, this is the writings of human men, giving themselves "heavenly" permission to do these things.

*
 

Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
If there is a God, - the Abrahamic God is not it.

As evidence I use their on words, in their own books.
This is not God, this is the writings of human men, giving themselves "heavenly" permission to do these things.
*
There you go then, you've answered your own objection to the Abrahamic GOD not being smart enough to create us. Christian and non Christian Scholars confirm the Bible is largely written by unknown sources, and contains:

Words of wisdom and guidance for mankind.
Tribal writings from men to justify the things you mentioned.
Poetry
History, both accurate and inaccurate
Story of Creation as understood and remembered by those who either directly spoke with Prophets and Messengers, or their subsequent followers, decades/centuries later, thus some things are correct, whilst others reflect the fallible human understanding of the time.

The GOD of Abraham pbuh sent one last piece of revelation for mankind. Here's what He said about the previous Scriptures and those entrusted to look after it:

But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind. From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done. Qur'an 5:13-14

The solution is given in the next verse:

O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you used to conceal of the Scripture and overlooking much. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book. Qur'an 5:15

Now you have 2 options, either read the book for yourself and decide on whether its source is from beyond the natural World or not.
Or don't read the book, just visit sites with agendas like answeringmuslims.com or wikiislam and copy and paste their arguments against the Qur'an, which have been refuted time and time again or lastly, (yes there's a final unorthodox method!) You could ask you cat to guide you as it knows if something is from GOD or not :)

Al-Qur'an al-Kareem - القرآن الكريم
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
If there is a God, - the Abrahamic God is not it.

As evidence I use their on words, in their own books.

This "God" has all human characteristics - including envy, anger, murders babies, destroys large groups of earthlings because some are supposedly evil, etc., His laws allow real slavery, ownership of women, rape, etc.

He is vengeful, holds grudges, murders the innocent, kills his own supposed people for "some" of them doing wrong, orders them to murder men, women, children, and even dumb animals, of the tribes that - OWNED - the supposed promised land, etc.

In the Bible the “supposed” evil Satan is only responsible "supposedly," for six deaths.

But the Bible “God” is responsible for an estimated 24 MILLION deaths, - obviously of which – million had to be innocent children!

This is not God, this is the writings of human men, giving themselves "heavenly" permission to do these things.

*
the Lord gives....the Lord takes away....

if He allows His servants to do the killing....how would you know?

of course...I prefer peace first

and I believe heaven is guarded

choices will be made
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Well done a veiled insult; I'll give you an A+ for whom all you have insulted in one sentence.

From what I see you do not even believe in a God, to you He is a fictional character kind of like Superman. So without even knowing even if He exists, you have insulted the whole of heaven and all those who believe in God, saying that God is not even smart enough, so even those who believe are pretty stupid.

But to answer the question: Yes, He is.

For even those who believe he is fictional: Yes, He is. To prove my point, Superman is a fictional character who can leap tall buildings. Not because he is real and can do it, but because the creators of his character says he can. So even in your world where he is a fictional character; believers believe He can so, so He can in their minds.

It sounds as if the whole of heaven and all those who believe in God are awfully thin skinned and very easily insulted if they are offended by a simple question.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Evide


Evidently, he's real smart:

Scientists discover double meaning in genetic code | UW News


This discovery is 4 years old, but it certainly hasn't been highlighted. I wonder why? Too much implied design? Hard to explain how it originated by chance?

" “Now we know that this basic assumption about reading the human genome missed half of the picture. These new findings highlight that DNA is an incredibly powerful information storage device, which nature has fully exploited in unexpected ways.”"

The above is from the cited article. It certainly doesn't sound as if anyone other than you thinks that it implies too much design or that it couldn't have originated by chance.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
" “Now we know that this basic assumption about reading the human genome missed half of the picture. These new findings highlight that DNA is an incredibly powerful information storage device, which nature has fully exploited in unexpected ways.”"

The above is from the cited article. It certainly doesn't sound as if anyone other than you thinks that it implies too much design or that it couldn't have originated by chance.
No, I'm certainly not the only one....Meyer, Axe, and others appreciate the reality of it. I'm in good company.

It's just that the mainstream scientific community is going to downplay any uncovered evidence that supports a superior intelligence behind it. That view can't be acceptable (to the mainstream, anyways), no matter how much the evidence points in that direction. It always has to be a mindless naturalistic cause.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
If there is a God, - the Abrahamic God is not it.

As evidence I use their on words, in their own books.

This "God" has all human characteristics - including envy, anger, murders babies, destroys large groups of earthlings because some are supposedly evil, etc., His laws allow real slavery, ownership of women, rape, etc.

He is vengeful, holds grudges, murders the innocent, kills his own supposed people for "some" of them doing wrong, orders them to murder men, women, children, and even dumb animals, of the tribes that - OWNED - the supposed promised land, etc.

In the Bible the “supposed” evil Satan is only responsible "supposedly," for six deaths.

But the Bible “God” is responsible for an estimated 24 MILLION deaths, - obviously of which – million had to be innocent children!

This is not God, this is the writings of human men, giving themselves "heavenly" permission to do these things.

*

Not forgetting the pregnant women, all those fetuses making the abrahamic god the most prolific abortionist of all time.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Strawman argument. What's the Bible got to do with GOD? It's mostly written by unknown people who may have had contact with various Prophets and Messengers, thus it contains some revelation from GOD, some historical events, some storytelling and poetry from various ancient tribes and communities. It also contains forged and edited books. Not a good source to be quoting in an attempt to show GOD got things wrong or made mistakes.

Did you confuse me with a theist? I'm an atheist. I have no interest in showing how God did anything. What I was demonstrating is that you committed a Texas sharpshooter fallacy, and them rather than addressing that, you deflected to some vague claim of a strawman fallacy.

If God made you smart, then how he isn't?

How He is? Smart is as smart does.

Now you have 2 options, either read the book for yourself and decide on whether its source is from beyond the natural World or not. Or don't read the book, just visit sites with agendas like answeringmuslims.com or wikiislam and copy and paste their arguments against the Qur'an, which have been refuted time and time again or lastly, (yes there's a final unorthodox method!) You could ask you cat to guide you as it knows if something is from GOD or not

That sounds like three options.

How about a fourth: Don't read the book or bother the cat for advice, either.

Why would I read another holy book to see if there is evidence of a god in it. If there were, I'd already know it. If there were, you could copy and paste here yourself.

the mainstream scientific community is going to downplay any uncovered evidence that supports a superior intelligence behind it.

If the creationists had such evidence, it would be celebrated, not suppressed. There is no conspiracy against them. If they produce some new data that supports a creationist interpretation of reality, they will be well received in the scientific community.

And if they weren't, they could publish their findings and extol them themselves.

Creationism has been a dead end. Nobody is trying to suppress it or needs to. There's nothing to suppress.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
No, I'm certainly not the only one....Meyer, Axe, and others appreciate the reality of it. I'm in good company.

It's just that the mainstream scientific community is going to downplay any uncovered evidence that supports a superior intelligence behind it. That view can't be acceptable (to the mainstream, anyways), no matter how much the evidence points in that direction. It always has to be a mindless naturalistic cause.

No it isn't, if you or anyone provides evidence of ID then science will investigate it. The problem you have is that no evidence (look up the meaning of the word) has ever been forthcoming. In fact considering the number of people in the last 3000 years or so who have repeatedly failed to provide any evidence for an intelligent designer it's a wonder that some die hards still cling to the notion.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Talking about Abraham's God: What proof do we have that this god is smart enough to design human life and all of existence?
Absolutely not that bright it should be self evident look around. It doesn't mean that God does not exist, look around how do we even function?!!!! Now some may say God doesn't exist, look around, are they magically smart somehow? They certainly proclaim to be but look around I don't see the proof! Some would proclaim God to be a genius, look around the standard seems low.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
No it isn't, if you or anyone provides evidence of ID then science will investigate it. The problem you have is that no evidence (look up the meaning of the word) has ever been forthcoming. In fact considering the number of people in the last 3000 years or so who have repeatedly failed to provide any evidence for an intelligent designer it's a wonder that some die hards still cling to the notion.

If you think highly-integrated systems exhibiting orderly and complex functions arises by mindless chance, then you have more faith than I and wouldn’t accept any ID evidence, short of God tapping you on the shoulder.

ID is observed everywhere you look, you can’t miss it.

Hebrews 3:4
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
If you think highly-integrated systems exhibiting orderly and complex functions arises by mindless chance, then you have more faith than I and wouldn’t accept any ID evidence, short of God tapping you on the shoulder.

ID is observed everywhere you look, you can’t miss it.

Hebrews 3:4

You are creating a strawman argument. What makes you think that evolution is by "chance"? You believe in magic and have no evidence that supports your beliefs. You really should not be throwing stones, especially when you cannot honestly address the science that you hate.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Don't you think that the human's brain is a sign of a smart designer?

No. It is the sign of either an intelligent designer or the blind forces of nature working over deep time. The brain itself doesn't help us decide much about its provenance.

ID is observed everywhere you look, you can’t miss it.

What I can't miss is the universe. Once again, that is evidence that it exists, not how it came to be. Evidence isn't useful unless it helps us choose between competing hypotheses. The universe itself doesn't do that, although it would if it contained irreducible complexity in its biological systems, for example.

But it doesn't to anybody's knowledge.

Both of you are jumping to unjustified conclusions.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
If you think highly-integrated systems exhibiting orderly and complex functions arises by mindless chance, then you have more faith than I and wouldn’t accept any ID evidence, short of God tapping you on the shoulder.
At least there's multiple evidences for evolution, unlike creationism's singular source: a book written by shepherds hundreds of years ago, which was then interpreted, reinterpreted, and reinterpreted, and reinterpreted, and . . . .
 
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