Intelligent Design, why I can't believe it.

[Willamena]

And you avoided my question. Which is more likely?

Which is more likely, the unreasonable or the impossible? Hmm.... I'd have to abstain, sorry.

 

[Runlikethewind]

That does sound like a better definition. Howevery, I don't think everything was created by purely random chance causes. It seems that natural causes build on top of each other, each change dependent on the last.

But then the question is, if natural causes build up on one another to form complexity, then what is it about the universe that allows this? Why are the forces and laws which govern the interaction of matter in such a way that these things can come about? What I am trying to get at is the apparent 'fine tuning' of physical laws which allow matter to become organized instead of falling apart into chaos. I have only heard of two explanations, one that the apparent 'fine tuning' is a fine tuning caused by an intelligent designer. Or two, that our universe is just one of a multiverse in which this particular set of laws that we have came to be in this particular universe. The multiverse hypothesis overcomes the statistical impossibility that the laws we have would come about by claiming that there are an infinite or near infinite number of other universes with different laws and the impossibility of our set of laws coming to be becomes possible and the possible becomes probable and here we are to talk about it. In either case I don't know how one would prove either one at this point in time. At least the multiverse hypothesis has the potential of being testable by building a sliding, wormhole, dimensional rift thingy. Either explanation for the apparent fine tuning of physical laws is, I believe, intellectually honest.

If you know of any other explinations or have a different take on why the universe exists in such a way that complexity is able to form naturally, the apparent 'fine tuning' of laws, etc, I would be most interested in hearing them!

 

[Rolling_Stone]

The logic that I have heard is that God doesn't have to have been created by anything because he always existed. Though it doesn't make sense to me, that's the view some people seem to have.

Why doesn't it make sense? If something exists, it stands to reason that something exists that cannot not exist.

 

[Willamena]

Why are the forces and laws which govern the interaction of matter in such a way that these things can come about? What I am trying to get at is the apparent 'fine tuning' of physical laws which allow matter to become organized instead of falling apart into chaos.

"Govern" in the context of Nature is a trope. The "laws" are a definition of the interactions between matter/energy that make up the universe. They exist because matter and energy interact.

 

[Willamena]

Why doesn't it make sense? If something exists, it stands to reason that something exists that cannot not exist.

It's not about existence but about causation.

 

[Papersock]

Why doesn't it make sense? If something exists, it stands to reason that something exists that cannot not exist.

Maybe the universe cannot not exist. Maybe there can't be nothing. I don't know what there was before the universe began. Nobody knows for sure. We haven't figured that out. But whatever it was I think it was just "intelligence." Intelligence is not the end of the regression. Humans are intelligent and they design things. But what are humans made of?

It seems that nature is so mind-bogglingly huge and complex that we call it god. But why call it god when nature (our universe and whatever else there may be) is so mind-bogglingly huge and complex. Maybe it is some combination of the two that I cannot fathom. But whatever this intelligence, or force is, it's nothing like any god we have thought of.
These are my thoughts, anyway.

 

[Papersock]

But then the question is, if natural causes build up on one another to form complexity, then what is it about the universe that allows this? Why are the forces and laws which govern the interaction of matter in such a way that these things can come about? What I am trying to get at is the apparent 'fine tuning' of physical laws which allow matter to become organized instead of falling apart into chaos. I have only heard of two explanations, one that the apparent 'fine tuning' is a fine tuning caused by an intelligent designer. Or two, that our universe is just one of a multiverse in which this particular set of laws that we have came to be in this particular universe. The multiverse hypothesis overcomes the statistical impossibility that the laws we have would come about by claiming that there are an infinite or near infinite number of other universes with different laws and the impossibility of our set of laws coming to be becomes possible and the possible becomes probable and here we are to talk about it. In either case I don't know how one would prove either one at this point in time. At least the multiverse hypothesis has the potential of being testable by building a sliding, wormhole, dimensional rift thingy. Either explanation for the apparent fine tuning of physical laws is, I believe, intellectually honest.

If you know of any other explinations or have a different take on why the universe exists in such a way that complexity is able to form naturally, the apparent 'fine tuning' of laws, etc, I would be most interested in hearing them!

There are probably other possibilities. I've heard the idea that maybe the universe could not be "fine tuned" any other way. Or maybe if it were different then forces would build differently. The way the universe is now supports life as we know it. What other kind of life could there be, I wonder.

 

[Willamena]

There are probably other possibilities. I've heard the idea that maybe the universe could not be "fine tuned" any other way. Or maybe if it were different then forces would build differently. The way the universe is now supports life as we know it. What other kind of life could there be, I wonder.

And if it supported "life as we don't know it," it would still be "fine-tuned."

 

[Rolling_Stone]

Maybe the universe cannot not exist. Maybe there can't be nothing. I don't know what there was before the universe began. Nobody knows for sure. We haven't figured that out. But whatever it was I think it was just "intelligence."

Ah, so you are a theist after all. As I posted in another thread:

To say that Reality is quite beyond thought, and therefore cannot be designated by such small, human terms as “conscious” and “intelligent” is only to say that God is immeasurably greater than man. And the theist will agree that he is infinitely greater. To argue that Reality s not a blind energy but a “living principle,” an “impersonal super-consciousness,” or an “impersonal mind” is merely to play with words and indulge in terminological contradictions. A “living principle” means about as much as a black whiteness, and to speak of an “impersonal mind” is like talking about a circular square. It is the result, of course, of misunderstanding the word “personal” as used of God— as if it meant that God is an organism, form, or composite structure like man….But the word is not used at all in that sense. From many points of view the term “personal” is badly chosen, but it means simply that God is alive in the fullest possible way. (From Behold the Spirit, by Alan Watts )

 

[Papersock]

Oops, what I actually meant to say was "But whatever it was I think it was not just 'intelligence.'" I left out an important word there. I do not think there is any "intelligence," personal or otherwise. There may be forces at work that seem intelligent, but that is just the way our minds interpret it because that's the way we are used to seeing things.

 

[Runlikethewind]

Perhaps I should have been a bit more specific about what I meant by 'fine tuned laws'. What I was trying to refer to is the strength and weakness of the forces with which matter interacts. The strong and weak nuclear, the electromagnetic, and gravitational forces. If any change where made to these forces matter and energy would interact in such a way that no kind of complex structures could arise. If gravity where just a little bit weaker planets or stars might not be able to coalesce and form. If the nuclear or electromagnetic forces where stronger or weaker then chemicals and atoms might not be able to keep any constance. Now I am no physicist or chemist so I can't totally speculate on what the conclusions of changes to these forces would exactly be. I recall flipping through a book by Leonard Susskind and as a physicists he said that any changes to these forces would be devastating. And Susskind is openly opposed to intelligent design so it is not necessarily a biased opinion.

The possible combinations of strengths and weaknesses of these forces are astronomical to calculate. And so the odds of having this particular set of forces is very low if it is purely chance, near impossible. So either we are lucky to have them as such or there are many other universes like ours with different combinations of strengths and weaknesses, making it inevitable that at least one universe would have our combination and we are it. Or it might also be possible that an intelligent cause is behind it.

Willamena, you are correct in pointing out that 'govern' is a bit misleading. It was purely unintentional on my part, thanks for pointing that out. The forces of nature do exist because matter and energy interact but there are so many possible combinations of how that interaction can manifest itself and scientists believe that many of these combinations would make it impossible for matter and energy to interact in such a way that would allow the formation of complex structures.

[SIZE=+0]So my point is that intelligent design is one of many possible explanations for why this universe has such a friendly combination of force strengths and weaknesses. It is not the only explanation but I think it is just as plausible an explanation as any. Now as to whether this amounts to a scientific theory and be taught in science class as some would say, I would have to disagree. But as far as being a rational explanation for why the universe is the way it is, I'm cool with it.
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[Willamena]

What I was trying to refer to is the strength and weakness of the forces with which matter interacts. The strong and weak nuclear, the electromagnetic, and gravitational forces. If any change where made to these forces matter and energy would interact in such a way that no kind of complex structures could arise.

As the forces are the interplay of matter/energy, and as matter/energy is what it is, the forces could be none other than what they are.

The possible combinations of strengths and weaknesses of these forces are astronomical to calculate.

Such speculation assumes that they exist apart from energy/matter.

The forces of nature do exist because matter and energy interact but there are so many possible combinations of how that interaction can manifest itself...

Matter is what is it/energy is what it is. So there is no possibility for the interactions of matter/energy to be not what they are.

The chances of this universe being the way it is are percisely 100%. They really are.

So my point is that intelligent design is one of many possible explanations for why this universe has such a friendly combination of force strengths and weaknesses.

"Friendly" to us. "Fine-tuned" to us. We are looking at "us" as the end result of this universe, and that's a particular outcome. The odds of having a particular outcome, like heads, after the coin has been flipped and is lying there on the table heads-up, is 100%. The forces that determined all the events since the (entirely speculative) first event were fixed with the (equally speculative) creation of the first matter/energy. That was the coin toss. Since the first moment, it's been a done deal.

 

[Super Universe]

As the forces are the interplay of matter/energy, and as matter/energy is what it is, the forces could be none other than what they are.


Such speculation assumes that they exist apart from energy/matter.


Matter is what is it/energy is what it is. So there is no possibility for the interactions of matter/energy to be not what they are.

The chances of this universe being the way it is are percisely 100%. They really are.


"Friendly" to us. "Fine-tuned" to us. We are looking at "us" as the end result of this universe, and that's a particular outcome. The odds of having a particular outcome, like heads, after the coin has been flipped and is lying there on the table heads-up, is 100%. The forces that determined all the events since the (entirely speculative) first event were fixed with the (equally speculative) creation of the first matter/energy. That was the coin toss. Since the first moment, it's been a done deal.

Scientifically incorrect with today's theories. You've shown no proof and provided no theory that matter/energy forces cannot be different. And if you did it would be against the theory of other dimensions, something generally accepted in science.

You also have no statistical basis. You don't know how many beginnings and failures, if any, came before this success.

The odds of a coin flip coming up heads or tails remains 1 in 2 regardless of the prior flip.

Now if you are seeking the odds on a coin flip showing heads up repeating a billion times in a row the odds become quite impossible by chance alone. Without any interference it can't happen, and any amount of logic will tell you that the universe forming so perfectly on it's own is about the same.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

Oops, what I actually meant to say was "But whatever it was I think it was not just 'intelligence.'" I left out an important word there. I do not think there is any "intelligence," personal or otherwise. There may be forces at work that seem intelligent, but that is just the way our minds interpret it because that's the way we are used to seeing things.

Cool. So you think something came from nothing; i.e., intelligence and consciousness emerged from something in which they are entirely absent. Seems you like magic.
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[Papersock]

Cool. So you think something came from nothing; i.e., intelligence and consciousness emerged from something in which they are entirely absent. Seems you like magic.
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Not at all. I think no one knows for sure what caused the universe to come into being.

 

[Papersock]

[SIZE=+0]So my point is that intelligent design is one of many possible explanations for why this universe has such a friendly combination of force strengths and weaknesses. It is not the only explanation but I think it is just as plausible an explanation as any. Now as to whether this amounts to a scientific theory and be taught in science class as some would say, I would have to disagree. But as far as being a rational explanation for why the universe is the way it is, I'm cool with it.
[/SIZE]

I think I agree with you. It is, in a way, a logical conclusion, among many.
Maybe the reason creationists and evolutionists have such a hard time understanding each other is because they think in such different ways. They each have different logical conclusions based on their observations and understanding of the world.

 

[Papersock]

And if it supported "life as we don't know it," it would still be "fine-tuned."

It would probably fit in its environment just as well as we do in ours, because it would have developed that way.

 

[Runlikethewind]

I think I agree with you. It is, in a way, a logical conclusion, among many.
Maybe the reason creationists and evolutionists have such a hard time understanding each other is because they think in such different ways. They each have different logical conclusions based on their observations and understanding of the world.

You said it! Agreed!

 

[Runlikethewind]

"Friendly" to us. "Fine-tuned" to us. We are looking at "us" as the end result of this universe, and that's a particular outcome. The odds of having a particular outcome, like heads, after the coin has been flipped and is lying there on the table heads-up, is 100%. The forces that determined all the events since the (entirely speculative) first event were fixed with the (equally speculative) creation of the first matter/energy. That was the coin toss. Since the first moment, it's been a done deal.

From what I understand of the big bang theory, the forces where of much different strengths during the inital exansion and then later changed to what they are today as the universe continued to expand. Which if it is true would mean that the coin had to rotate many times befor it landed heads up and so the posibility was that it might have landed on tails. And this coin of the forces has many more sides than heads and tails.

 

[gnostic]

Then God is nothing more than us?

Bingo!

If humans are the Intelligent Designers, then I'm afraid that we have made a terrible mess.