Interesting discussion about religion and evolution

[Unfettered]

"Would your belief in God be any different if there was no promise of immortal life?"

Yes, my life would be different. With no promise of a life beyond mortality I would not bother with belief in God, I would maximize my comfort, and I would yield to morality only when doing so would provide a superior economic benefit to me.

 

[shunyadragon]

I'm not at all sure what you're saying here.

I was quoting @Brian2. I asked him to clarify and explain. I do not know what he meant, I think that though in a previous post, he thought Hyksos were the Hebrews of Exodus.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I was quoting @Brian2. I asked him to clarify and explain. I do not know what he meant, I think that though in a previous post, he thought Hyksos were the Hebrews of Exodus.

I suspect that his "Nomads of YHWH (Shasu) " was a somewhat awkward reference to Redford's observation, while your "Nomads as YHWH (Shasu?)" was a somewhat awkward reference to his.

Be that as it may, I believe that Redford's comments were relevant.

 

[shunyadragon]

I suspect that his "Nomads of YHWH (Shasu) " was a somewhat awkward reference to Redford's observation, while your "Nomads as YHWH (Shasu?)" was a somewhat awkward reference to his.

Be that as it may, I believe that Redford's comments were relevant.

OK. I did a little research and understand this better,

 

[shunyadragon]

I suspect that his "Nomads of YHWH (Shasu) " was a somewhat awkward reference to Redford's observation, while your "Nomads as YHWH (Shasu?)" was a somewhat awkward reference to his.

Be that as it may, I believe that Redford's comments were relevant.

Question: Who destroyed Jericho?

Based on my current view of the evidence the Egyptians sieged and destroyed Jericho What is the evidence that you know about as to who actually did it? I cannot find any evidence of a Hebrew army involved.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Question: Who destroyed Jericho?

Based on my current view of the evidence the Egyptians sieged and destroyed Jericho What is the evidence that you know about as to who actually did it? I cannot find any evidence of a Hebrew army involved.

So you quote me by asking a question that has nothing to do with the quote. I'm lost.

 

[shunyadragon]

So you quote me by asking a question that has nothing to do with the quote. I'm lost.

This question had nothing to do with what I am quoting. I apologize. IT is simply a question addressed to you.

What is your view of the archaeological evidence as to who destroyed the city of Jericho?

I believe it was the Egyptians. From the source previously cited.

"She dated the fallen walls and ashes found throughout the city to be circa 1550 BC, and understood the burning was the doing of Egyptian armed forces under Pharaoh Ahmoses I, in pursuit of the Hyksos hehad expelled from Avaris. in Egypt. Because she reported to the Scholarly World there was no collapsed and burned defensive wall for the15th or 13th
centuries BC, many scholars concluded the Bible was in error about an Exodus circa the 15th or 13th
centuries BC. Found at Jericho were two scarabs of the last Hyksos Pharaoh, Khamudy, who apparently lead his expelled people (the Hyksos) back to Canaan (cf. Wikipedia, Khamudi, for the two scarabs found atJericho).It is my understanding that the last Hyksos Pharaoh, Khamudy, was recast in the Bible as Moses (aroyal prince of Egypt) who leads an expelled Israel to Canaan and Joshua, who ordered the burning ofJericho and its collapsed defensive wall circa 1406 BC (as per 1 Kings 6:1).That is to say, Hyksos Pharaoh Khamudy (being a Pharaoh, he was recast as Moses PRINCE OFEGYPT in the Bible) was recast as two characters, Moses, as a former prince of Egypt, leading Israel to Canaan and Joshua, the burner of Jericho and conqueror of Canaan.So the Exodus is a recast of the 16th
Century BC Hyksos Expulsion, as has been CORRECTLY NOTED by an Egyptologist, Professor Donald B. Redford:

“Despite the lateness...of the story in Exodus...There is only one chain of historical events that can accommodate this late tradition, and that is the Hyksos descent and occupation of Egypt (see chapter five)...in fact it is in the Exodus account that we are confronted with the Canaanite version of this event...in sum, therefore, we may state that the memory of the Hyksos expulsion did indeed live on in the folklore of the Canaanite population of the southern Levant.”

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

What is your view of the archaeological evidence as to who destroyed the city of Jericho?

I believe it was the Egyptians. From the source previously cited.

"She dated the fallen walls and ashes found throughout the city to be circa 1550 BC, and understood the burning was the doing of Egyptian armed forces under Pharaoh Ahmoses I, in pursuit of the Hyksos hehad expelled from Avaris. ...

I believe that you are referring to Dame Kathleen Kenyon.

But then see:

Wikipedia > Battle of Jericho > Excavations at Tell es-Sultan​

and its reference to the Italian-Palestinian Expedition.

My "view of the archaeological evidence as to who destroyed the city of Jericho" is a resounding: I don't now. Archaeology is dusty work and it's probably prudent to wait until the dust clears.

 

[shunyadragon]

I believe that you are referring to Dame Kathleen Kenyon.

But then see:

Wikipedia > Battle of Jericho > Excavations at Tell es-Sultan​

and its reference to the Italian-Palestinian Expedition.

My "view of the archaeological evidence as to who destroyed the city of Jericho" is a resounding: I don't now. Archaeology is dusty work and it's probably prudent to wait until the dust clears.

I have seen this reference. Yes, there are some open questions as to who destroyed Jericho. There is no evidence of an army led by Joshua. There are known wars between Egypt and the Kingdom of Hyksos and Canaanites in this period when Egypt drove the Hyksos out of Northern Egypt into Canaan and defeated and occupied Canaan..

Are there any other possible armies capable of this?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Are there any other possible armies capable of this?

Probably.

 

[shunyadragon]

I believe that you are referring to Dame Kathleen Kenyon.

But then see:

Wikipedia > Battle of Jericho > Excavations at Tell es-Sultan​

and its reference to the Italian-Palestinian Expedition.

My "view of the archaeological evidence as to who destroyed the city of Jericho" is a resounding: I don't now. Archaeology is dusty work and it's probably prudent to wait until the dust clears.

A more comprehensive argument from the Christian Biblical perspective is here:

Conquest of Canaan: Did the Israelites Conquer Jericho?

Pottery, stratigraphy, scarab data, and C-14 date all point to a destruction of Jericho around the end of Late Bronze I, about 1400 BC. Garstang’s original date.

biblearchaeology.org

He nonetheless, provides the problem of a Hebrew army in 1400 BCE.

"One major problem remains: the date, 1400 B.C.E. Most scholars will reject the possibility that the Israelites destroyed Jericho in about 1400 B.C.E. because of their belief that Israel did not emerge in Canaan until about 150 to 200 years later, at the end of the Late Bronze II period."

I believe the evidence indicates that Israel emerged with a decline of Canaan after their decline and defeat by the Egyptians after about 150-200 years later. At the time the Hebrews did not have an army

He argues that:

"A minority of scholars agrees with the Biblical chronology, which places the Israelite entry into Canaan in about 1400 B.C.E. The dispute between these two views is already well-known to BAR readers.**"

The minority are Christian apologists

"But recently, new evidence has come to light suggesting that Israel was resident in Canaan throughout the Late Bronze II period. As new data emerge and as old data are reevaluated, it will undoubtedly require a reappraisal of current theories regarding the date and the nature of the emergence of Israel in Canaan."

Wishful apologetic thinking that new evidence for Israel as a significant kingdom with a significant army in 1400 BCE. This is in the range of Egyptian armies conquering Hyksos and Canaan.

Not recently. It has been known that there were Hebrews in Canaan before this, but nor in numbers reflected in Exodus and Joshua. The above reinforces the problem of a large Exodus and army under Joshua entering Israel from the South.

Nonetheless, the argument for dates is good. It simply fails to justify the existence of a Hebrew army at 1400 BCE which is the basis for my argument.

 

[shunyadragon]

Probably.

Interesting who you would propose to have this army at this time.

The following cited article details the decline of Canaan, the defeat by the Egyptians, and the decline of the Egyptian colonial rule of Canaan. This occurred in the period before the rise of Israel which is after 1200 BCE.

.https://www.archaeology.org/issues/262-1707/features/5627-jaffa-egypt-canaan-colony#:~:text=With%20Canaan%20under%20assault%20from,Egypt%20did%20not%20fall%20alone.

Egypt’s Final Redoubt in Canaan

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The fiery end of the last Egyptian colony

By ROGER ATWOOD

July/August 2017

For three centuries, Egyptians ruled the land of Canaan. Armies of chariots and 10,000 foot soldiers under the pharaoh Thutose III thundered through Gaza and defeated a coalition of Canaanite chiefdoms at Megiddo, in what is now northern Israel, in 1458 B.C. The Egyptians then built fortresses, mansions, and agricultural estates from Gaza to Galilee, taking Canaan’s finest products—copper from Dead Sea mines, cedar from Lebanon, olive oil and wine from the Mediterranean coast, along with untold numbers of slaves and concubines—and sending them overland and across the Mediterranean and Red Seas to Egypt to please its elites.

With Canaan under assault from seaborne invaders and hit by drought so severe it caused food shortages, Egypt’s colonial rule began to crumble around 1200 B.C., starting in the north and gradually spreading south. Egypt did not fall alone.

Along this line of evidence, it was Egypt that destroyed Jericho in about 1400 BCE or earlier in their conquest of Canaan..

 

[shunyadragon]

What was Israel like in 1400-1200 BCE

History of ancient Israel and Judah - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The history of ancient Israel and Judah begins in the Southern Levant region of Western Asia during the Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age. "Israel" as a people or tribal confederation (see Israelites) appears for the first time in the Merneptah Stele, an inscription from ancient Egypt that dates to about 1208 BCE, with the people group possibly being older. According to modern archaeology, ancient Israelite culture developed as an outgrowth from the Semitic Canaanites. Two related Israelite polities known as the Kingdom of Israel (Samaria) and the Kingdom of Judah had emerged in the region by Iron Age II.

According to the Hebrew Bible, a "United Monarchy" (consisting of Israel and Judah) existed as early as the 11th century BCE, under the reigns of Saul, David, and Solomon; the country later would split into two separate kingdoms: Israel, containing the cities of Shechem and Samaria in the north, and Judah (containing Jerusalem and the Jewish Temple) in the south. The historicity of the United Monarchy is debated—as there are no archaeological remains of it that are accepted as consensus—but historians and archaeologists agree that Israel and Judah existed as separate kingdoms by c. 900 BCE[1]: 169–195 [2] and c. 850 BCE,[3] respectively.

 

[Brian2]

Stories -- with a capital 'S' -- are factoids and etiological myth and message stitched together for utility and polished throughout the process of transmission. Scholars "reject these things as evidence for the Exodus" because there are better informed explanations.

When the evidence supports the stories then there is no reason to reject the stories.

 

[Brian2]

You cannot justify the invasion of a Hebrew army led by Joshua based on one battle. for the city of Jericho.

As I said, I don't do that.
But it seems you don't want to hear that or the other evidence for the conquest in Joshua.

 

[Brian2]

You see Nomads as YHWH (Shasu?) Please explain why you reached this conclusion there is no such evidence.

I see the Nomads of YHWH as mentioned in the hyroglyphs of Soleb as referring to the wondering Israel.

Shasu - Google Search

But I suppose you want evidence for the evidence when all I have is a hypothesis.
It is like Jericho. The evidence shows Jericho having been destroyed when and how Joshua tells us and I see this as part of the evidence that Joshua tells a true story.
Soleb has an inscription of the nomads of YHWH being approximately where and when the Bible tells us Israel would have been. If we want to identify these shasu then Israel is sounds right to me. This does not prove the Exodus or conquest either, but all these pieces of evidence added together make a solid case.

There is absolutely no evidence of a Hebrew invasion under Joshua or a large enough migration in Exodus to explain an army invasion. There are numerous conflicts in the Pentateuch as to what Joshua actually conquered. There is absolutely no independent evidence that Joshua's army conquered

The overwhelming number of independent academic archaeologists and historians say no such invasion took place.

Maybe you do, but I don't see an academic vote as determinant of the truth of history.
But of course there is evidence of a Hebrew invasion under Joshua when and how the Bible tells us. But you have to be open to the how, and that when it says that Israel destroyed a certain town by the sword, it does not mean that the town was torn down or burnt. The destruction of the actual buildings is only in Jericho, Ai and Hazor, as the archaeology shows us.
Israel lived in the towns they emptied of people.
Also as Joshua tells us, much of Canaan was left unconquered even though Israel had peace from war and were able to settle there in their various tribal groupings.
The archaeology also fits this scenario, which is again what Joshua tells us.
By 1200 Israel was settled and part of the Canaanite scenery and for people who do not see the conquest as real, it looks as if Israel emerged from Canaan around then.
Such people also ignore the fact that the Bible says Israel is said to have intermarried with Canaanites and worshipped their gods and syncretised the religion with Canaan religion and at times the prophets of YHWH were sought out to be killed by the reigning Kings of Israel and Judah.
The scriptures had to be taken care of and hidden or they would have been destroyed. This is part of the reason that they think the Exodus story was made up around 600BC as an origin myth.
One error reinforces another, reinforces another etc and pretty soon nothing of worth is left as true in the Hebrew Bible.

 

[shunyadragon]

I see the Nomads of YHWH as mentioned in the hyroglyphs of Soleb as referring to the wondering Israel.

That is possible, but the reference is to vague and that does not explain the Exodus or Joshua's army.

Shasu - Google Search

But I suppose you want evidence for the evidence when all I have is a hypothesis.

Yes, you have not provided any evidence except for dating the destruction of Jericho and the Bible told me so, which id not evidence. You provided nothing else and you have not responded to the references and evidence I provided.

It is like Jericho. The evidence shows Jericho having been destroyed when and how Joshua tells us and I see this as part of the evidence that Joshua tells a true story.

Only that Jericho was destroyed, No Joshua army is known by any evidence. The evidence indicates the Egyptians destroyed Jericho. Yes. Joshua tells a story, but no evidence to back up the existence of any such army or the Conquest of Canaan which never happened.

As cited it is Egypt that destroyed Jericho and conquered Canaan,

Soleb has an inscription of the nomads of YHWH being approximately where and when the Bible tells us Israel would have been. If we want to identify these shasu then Israel is sounds right to me. This does not prove the Exodus or conquest either, but all these pieces of evidence added together make a solid case.



Maybe you do, but I don't see an academic vote as determinant of the truth of history.

The Bible cannot justify itself in history without independent evidence. Yes, academic archaeology and history stand on actual objective verifiable evidence. You go to great lengths to cite evidence to justify the date of the destruction of Jericho but play Duck, Bob, and Weave when it comes to back up the important claims when there is no evidence.

But of course there is evidence of a Hebrew invasion under Joshua when and how the Bible tells us. But you have to be open to the how, and that when it says that Israel destroyed a certain town by the sword, it does not mean that the town was torn down or burnt. The destruction of the actual buildings is only in Jericho, Ai and Hazor, as the archaeology shows us.

Again and again, the Bible like all ancient texts cannot justify itself without independent evidence. Whether this or that town is destroyed is not the real issue. The real issue is there is no evidence for Joshua or his army that claimed to destroy Jericho and conquer all of Canaan. Actually, it is well documented that Egypt conquered Canaan and what was a small Hebrew tribe.

Israel lived in the towns they emptied of people.
Also as Joshua tells us, much of Canaan was left unconquered even though Israel had peace from war and were able to settle there in their various tribal groupings.

No, It is claimed that Joshua conquered almost all of the Canaanite Kingodom and divided it among the 12 tribes, refernces to follow.

The archaeology also fits this scenario, which is again what Joshua tells us.
By 1200 Israel was settled and part of the Canaanite scenery and for people who do not see the conquest as real, it looks as if Israel emerged from Canaan around then.
Such people also ignore the fact that the Bible says Israel is said to have intermarried with Canaanites and worshipped their gods and syncretised the religion with Canaan religion and at times the prophets of YHWH were sought out to be killed by the reigning Kings of Israel and Judah.
The scriptures had to be taken care of and hidden or they would have been destroyed. This is part of the reason that they think the Exodus story was made up around 600BC as an origin myth.
One error reinforces another, reinforces another etc and pretty soon nothing of worth is left as true in the Hebrew Bible.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Interesting who you would propose to have this army at this time.

Uninteresting that you're becoming tiresome. Have fun ...

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

A more comprehensive argument from the Christian Biblical perspective is here:

<yawn>

thanks?​

</yawn>

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

When the evidence supports the stories then there is no reason to reject the stories.

That is remarkably ignorant. The "evidence" of tornadoes and subsistent farming does not support the Wizard of Oz.