Interesting discussion about religion and evolution

[Subduction Zone]

What is that about?

TSU "degrees" are worthless. I mean that literally. The "school" is unaccredited. That means a "doctorate" from them is not real. Did you see the picture that I posted of the TSU campus yesterday? I could probably find it again.

 

[shunyadragon]

Since the "Enlightenment" I am told that historians can use the naturalistic methodology of science in their historical analyses. This is a skeptical way to view history from the start.

Science is skeptical of everything even past theories and hypotheses. Archaeology and contemporary historical records are all included in the analysis including the Bible. Unfortunately, ancient scripture of all religions is not first-hand witness texts, and they are narratives written in history by those who 'believed in the miracles they testify to..

IMO Genesis is more than theological myth and the Exodus from Egypt and Conquest is real and the evidence points to it.

Genesis and Exodus both lack provenance of authorship or source before 600 BCE.

 

[shunyadragon]

IMO the evidence which everyone has to look at,,,,,,,,,,,,, and that includes the Bible,,,,,,,,,,, points to archaeological agreement with the Biblical record.
The evidence cited for the destruction of Jericho is actually at the correct date,,,,,,,,, the Biblical date,,,,,,,,, and shows exactly what the Biblical destription is.
How is it that the evidence for Jericho has to show a large army marching into the Judah region? It does not have to do that. All it need do is agree with the Bible.

No the archeological evidence for Jericho does not correspond to the dates of Exodus and Joshua .I will cite the references again.

Maybe you think that those who believe the Bible are not independant and not worth listening to in relation to their analysis of the evidence............ but looking at the actual evidence in relation to what the Bible says should be enough, and in fact is enough to show the accuracy of the Biblical account of what happened.

The evidence of one battle for Jericho is not evidence of an invasion and a mass migration which there is none. I will post references again. The Book of Joshua claims he defeated all of Canaan later books like Numbers contradict this and there is no archaeological evidence that this happened.

 

[shunyadragon]

I did not realise I was saying that.
Archaeologists disagree with archaeologists in their analysis of the evidence.
Historians disagree with historians in their analysis of what happened in history.
The divide seems to be between those who accept the Bible as a historical document and those who don't.

One archaeologist's analysis of the history related to the battle of Jericho fits the accepted academic view.

How Archaeological Findings at Jericho Date the Exodus

An explanation for why Jericho's archaeological findings have been misunderstood and overlooked by some scholars, and thus the Exodus' date is being overlooked by many scholars

www.academia.edu

18 May 2022 Several dates have been proposed by scholars for dating the Bible’s Exodus, with scholars offering various reasons in support of their proposals. My own research has concluded that archaeological findings suggest that TWO EVENTS have been conflated into ONE EVENT, and the failure to realize this by some scholars is why the confusion on establishing the correct date for the Exodus.The Golden Key to establishing the correct date of the Exodus turned out to be what was found at the Jericho excavations undertaken by Dame Kathleen Kenyon. Surprisingly, she did NOT REALIZE the importance of what she had found! She had been schooled to accept Exodus to be a 13
th century BC event, so when she excavated that 13th century BC portion of Tell es-Sultan (ancient Jericho’s present name), she found no evidence of a 13th century BC walled city, nor any evidence of burning (she also found no walled city and burning for the 15th century BC (the 1406 BC burning for some scholars implied by 1 Kings 6:1). She did report that in the 16 th century BC the defensive walls had collapsed apparently by an earthquake and besiegers burned the city, she noting that this was the LAST DEFENSIVE WALL for Jericho. Later ages saw occupations but no new defensive walls. She dated the fallen walls and ashes found throughout the city to be circa 1550 BC, and understood the burning was the doing of Egyptian armed forces under Pharaoh Ahmoses I, in pursuit of the Hyksos hehad expelled from Avaris. in Egypt. Because she reported to the Scholarly World there was no collapsed and burned defensive wall for the15th or 13th
centuries BC, many scholars concluded the Bible was in error about an Exodus circa the 15th or 13th
centuries BC. Found at Jericho were two scarabs of the last Hyksos Pharaoh, Khamudy, who apparently lead his expelled people (the Hyksos) back to Canaan (cf. Wikipedia, Khamudi, for the two scarabs found atJericho).It is my understanding that the last Hyksos Pharaoh, Khamudy, was recast in the Bible as Moses (aroyal prince of Egypt) who leads an expelled Israel to Canaan and Joshua, who ordered the burning ofJericho and its collapsed defensive wall circa 1406 BC (as per 1 Kings 6:1).That is to say, Hyksos Pharaoh Khamudy (being a Pharaoh, he was recast as Moses PRINCE OFEGYPT in the Bible) was recast as two characters, Moses, as a former prince of Egypt, leading Israel to Canaan and Joshua, the burner of Jericho and conqueror of Canaan.So the Exodus is a recast of the 16th
Century BC Hyksos Expulsion, as has been CORRECTLY NOTED by an Egyptologist, Professor Donald B. Redford:

“Despite the lateness...of the story in Exodus...There is only one chain of historical events that can accommodate this late tradition, and that is the Hyksos descent and occupation of Egypt (see chapter five)...in fact it is in the Exodus account that we are confronted with the Canaanite version of this event...in sum, therefore, we may state that the memory of the Hyksos expulsion did indeed live on in the folklore of the Canaanite population of the southern Levant.” (pp. 412-413. Donald B. Redford.
Egypt, Canaan and Israel in Ancient Times.

Princeton University Press. Princeton, New Jersey. 1992)I highly recommend Redford’s book, he provides in-depth arguments for why and how the Hyksos Expulsion was recast as Israel’s Exodus. Why all this confusion among scholars on the date of the Exodus? Is Exodus 1446 BC (1 Kings 6:1) or 1260 BC Ramesside? Some locations in Edom, Moab, and Canaan upon excavation, did not exist, or were abandoned for 1446 or 1260 BC, so some scholars concluded Exodus did not happen. However, some sites did exist, mostly in Iron Age I-II, circa 1200-586 BC, that aligned somewhat with the biblical accounts.So the world being portrayed in the Exodus was Iron Age I, 1200-1100 BC. Some opted for Exodus’ World being Late Iron II, the 8th-6th centuries BC.My opinion? The Exodus account was probably composed in the Babylonian Exile circa 562-560 BC. The clue?The mention of the Babylonian King Evil Merodach (2 Kings 25:27) who was assassinated by 560 BC. This is the last datable event in Primary History (Genesis-2 Kings)

 

[exchemist]

Since the "Enlightenment" I am told that historians can use the naturalistic methodology of science in their historical analyses. This is a sceptical way to view history from the start.



IMO Genesis is more than theological myth and the Exodus from Egypt and Conquest is real and the evidence points to it.

Your personal beliefs have no relation to a historian’s approach to these texts, which is what we are discussing.

The scholarly consensus on the exodus story is it did not happen as related in the bible:The Exodus - Wikipedia

 

[Brian2]

TSU "degrees" are worthless. I mean that literally. The "school" is unaccredited. That means a "doctorate" from them is not real. Did you see the picture that I posted of the TSU campus yesterday? I could probably find it again.

I don't even know where I used something from TSU.

 

[Brian2]

No the archeological evidence for Jericho does not correspond to the dates of Exodus and Joshua .I will cite the references again.

Examining the Evidence for the Destruction of Jericho | with Dr. Titus Kennedy

Dr. Titus Kennedy joins Frank to discuss his new eye-opening research article entitled 'The Bronze Age Destruction of Jericho, Archaeology, and the Book of Joshua', where he analyzes the currently existing evidence for the historical destruction of Jericho.

crossexamined.org

The evidence of one battle for Jericho is not evidence of an invasion and a mass migration which there is none. I will post references again. The Book of Joshua claims he defeated all of Canaan later books like Numbers contradict this and there is no archaeological evidence that this happened.

The evidence at Jericho of the fallen wall and to dating of that is exactly what is in Joshua and dating from other parts of the Bible.
Of course this one event does not prove the invasion and mass migration. and why would you think that it should? It is a part of the evidence however.
Other archaeology of the 14th century in Canaan also contributes. The only towns in Canaan said to have been burned for eg are Jericho, Ai and Hazor. That is what is found.
A more careful reading of Joshua that you seem willing to do tells us about large areas that were not conquered.
In Exodus we are told that Israel was to go in and not destroy the buildings (unless told to do that) but to live in them.
Israel fought and gave land and cities for the people to live in but did not kick out all the people. In fact God said that He would drive them out as He actually eventually did.
IOW the archaeology of Canaan in the 14th century is what we would expect on a careful reading of Joshua and other evidence in the Bible.
As for the large numbers of Israelites coming from Egypt, that is a problem and can be translated legitimately to a smaller number. Titus Kennedy says this and says that it leaves only one passage problematic.
Here is an interview that might help you understand some evidence for Israel in Egypt and the Exodus.

 

[Brian2]

Your personal beliefs have no relation to a historian’s approach to these texts, which is what we are discussing.

The scholarly consensus on the exodus story is it did not happen as related in the bible:The Exodus - Wikipedia

The thing is that my beliefs on the Exodus are based on Archaeological evidence and how it fits with the Bible story and the Biblical time of about 1450 BC for the Exodus.

 

[Brian2]

One archaeologist's analysis of the history related to the battle of Jericho fits the accepted academic view.

How Archaeological Findings at Jericho Date the Exodus

An explanation for why Jericho's archaeological findings have been misunderstood and overlooked by some scholars, and thus the Exodus' date is being overlooked by many scholars

www.academia.edu

18 May 2022 Several dates have been proposed by scholars for dating the Bible’s Exodus, with scholars offering various reasons in support of their proposals. My own research has concluded that archaeological findings suggest that TWO EVENTS have been conflated into ONE EVENT, and the failure to realize this by some scholars is why the confusion on establishing the correct date for the Exodus.The Golden Key to establishing the correct date of the Exodus turned out to be what was found at the Jericho excavations undertaken by Dame Kathleen Kenyon. Surprisingly, she did NOT REALIZE the importance of what she had found! She had been schooled to accept Exodus to be a 13
th century BC event, so when she excavated that 13th century BC portion of Tell es-Sultan (ancient Jericho’s present name), she found no evidence of a 13th century BC walled city, nor any evidence of burning (she also found no walled city and burning for the 15th century BC (the 1406 BC burning for some scholars implied by 1 Kings 6:1). She did report that in the 16 th century BC the defensive walls had collapsed apparently by an earthquake and besiegers burned the city, she noting that this was the LAST DEFENSIVE WALL for Jericho. Later ages saw occupations but no new defensive walls. She dated the fallen walls and ashes found throughout the city to be circa 1550 BC, and understood the burning was the doing of Egyptian armed forces under Pharaoh Ahmoses I, in pursuit of the Hyksos hehad expelled from Avaris. in Egypt. Because she reported to the Scholarly World there was no collapsed and burned defensive wall for the15th or 13th
centuries BC, many scholars concluded the Bible was in error about an Exodus circa the 15th or 13th
centuries BC. Found at Jericho were two scarabs of the last Hyksos Pharaoh, Khamudy, who apparently lead his expelled people (the Hyksos) back to Canaan (cf. Wikipedia, Khamudi, for the two scarabs found atJericho).It is my understanding that the last Hyksos Pharaoh, Khamudy, was recast in the Bible as Moses (aroyal prince of Egypt) who leads an expelled Israel to Canaan and Joshua, who ordered the burning ofJericho and its collapsed defensive wall circa 1406 BC (as per 1 Kings 6:1).That is to say, Hyksos Pharaoh Khamudy (being a Pharaoh, he was recast as Moses PRINCE OFEGYPT in the Bible) was recast as two characters, Moses, as a former prince of Egypt, leading Israel to Canaan and Joshua, the burner of Jericho and conqueror of Canaan.So the Exodus is a recast of the 16th
Century BC Hyksos Expulsion, as has been CORRECTLY NOTED by an Egyptologist, Professor Donald B. Redford:

“Despite the lateness...of the story in Exodus...There is only one chain of historical events that can accommodate this late tradition, and that is the Hyksos descent and occupation of Egypt (see chapter five)...in fact it is in the Exodus account that we are confronted with the Canaanite version of this event...in sum, therefore, we may state that the memory of the Hyksos expulsion did indeed live on in the folklore of the Canaanite population of the southern Levant.” (pp. 412-413. Donald B. Redford.
Egypt, Canaan and Israel in Ancient Times.

Princeton University Press. Princeton, New Jersey. 1992)I highly recommend Redford’s book, he provides in-depth arguments for why and how the Hyksos Expulsion was recast as Israel’s Exodus. Why all this confusion among scholars on the date of the Exodus? Is Exodus 1446 BC (1 Kings 6:1) or 1260 BC Ramesside? Some locations in Edom, Moab, and Canaan upon excavation, did not exist, or were abandoned for 1446 or 1260 BC, so some scholars concluded Exodus did not happen. However, some sites did exist, mostly in Iron Age I-II, circa 1200-586 BC, that aligned somewhat with the biblical accounts.So the world being portrayed in the Exodus was Iron Age I, 1200-1100 BC. Some opted for Exodus’ World being Late Iron II, the 8th-6th centuries BC.My opinion? The Exodus account was probably composed in the Babylonian Exile circa 562-560 BC. The clue?The mention of the Babylonian King Evil Merodach (2 Kings 25:27) who was assassinated by 560 BC. This is the last datable event in Primary History (Genesis-2 Kings)

IMO people come up with some pretty fanciful stuff when telling their own fictional versions of what happened.
The fact is that the evidence do exist in the archaeology for what the Bible tells us happened.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I don't even know where I used something from TSU.

I had to go back and check and I could not see that you did either. You probably have in the past. Did you ever refer to the supposed meteor strike over Sodom and Gomorrah? That would have been from a TSU source, and it was more than refuted. It was shown to be more than a bit dishonest.

But your latest source does not appear to be any better. Dr. Titus Kennedy is associated with the Discovery Institute. They were proven in a court of law to have pretty much lied in a book that they tried to sneak into school systems. That was the case where Intelligent Design was essentially on trial and found not to be science by a conservative Christian judge.

The source that told me this did not understand how bad the Disco Toot's reputation was:

7 Controversial Archaeological Discoveries About Jesus with Dr. Titus Kennedy

No other figure has impacted history like Jesus. Yet today, he’s often seen as a mythical character whose legend increased over time. So what does the historical and archaeological evidence say about Jesus? Dr. Titus Kennedy is a field archaeologist working primarily with sites and materials of...

www.impact360institute.org

When the only "scholars" that you can find are either from diploma mills or have clear ethical problems when it comes to their work or support it should raise some huge red flags for you.

 

[shunyadragon]

IMO people come up with some pretty fanciful stuff when telling their own fictional versions of what happened.
The fact is that the evidence do exist in the archaeology for what the Bible tells us happened.

Yes, evangelical apologists come with pretty fanciful stiff based on askance evidence for an Exodus and Invasion of Canaan that never took place as the Bible describes it. More references to follow. As far as Jericho goes the only evidence found in the ruins is Egyptian, and the archaeological dates do not fit the Biblical dates as referenced.

Where is the evidence for an invasion and a mass migration described in the Bible?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

IMO people come up with some pretty fanciful stuff when telling their own fictional versions of what happened.
The fact is that the evidence do exist in the archaeology for what the Bible tells us happened.

The fact is:

1. "Even though this [conquest] model has been thoroughly discredited, it remains the dominant view in many religious circles. Indeed, the challenge faced by many conservative interpreters of the Bible is the sheer lack of evidence for such a military campaign." [source; Mullins, pg 518]
2. Your definition of "evidence" is "fringe views promoted by Christian apologists," while what you dismiss as "pretty fanciful stuff" is no more than the growing consensus of science, against which you seem fully vaccinated.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I highly recommend Redford’s book, he provides in-depth arguments for why and how the Hyksos Expulsion was recast as Israel’s Exodus.

That might be a bit simplistic. Nevertheless, it's a book well worth recommending, as I've been doing here (apparently with little effect) for some time. So, for example, his reference to the "yhw(in) the land of the Shasu" and his overview of the Exodus narrative.

 

[Brian2]

Yes, evangelical apologists come with pretty fanciful stiff based on askance evidence for an Exodus and Invasion of Canaan that never took place as the Bible describes it. More references to follow. As far as Jericho goes the only evidence found in the ruins is Egyptian, and the archaeological dates do not fit the Biblical dates as referenced.

The evidence in the ruins are Egyptian scarabs for various kings and ceramics and theses things can be used to help date the destruction to about 1400 BC, the Biblical dating for it.

Biblical Sites: Three Ways to Date the Destruction at Jericho

Children in Sunday School often sing, “Joshua fought the battle of Jericho, Jericho, Jericho. Joshua fought the battle of Jericho and the walls came a-tumbling down.” But did the walls of Jericho r…

biblearchaeologyreport.com

Where is the evidence for an invasion and a mass migration described in the Bible?

It sounds as if you reject the dating of the destruction of Jericho to about 1400 BC as evidence of for the Biblical story which also tells us 1400BC.
That is really weird both from you and from other scholars who do the same.
It is like saying "We know the Bible is wrong about the dating and that no large scale invasion happened, so who cares that both the Bible and archaeology say 1400BC"
Why can't you see that the dating of the destruction of Jericho is part of the evidence for the truth of the Bible story?

The numbers of Hebrews given in the Bible for the invasion might be too large, as translated, but that is no good reason to reject the whole story, which according to many archaeologists, fits with the archaeological evidence for Canaan of the 14th century.
Is the large number of Israelites all you have? Is there any evidence against the invasion apart from that?
Do you read Joshua and what it actually says?
The invaders lived in the same cities and houses. The invaders used the same stuff the Canaanites used. There were many areas that were not conquered. The archaeology shows that, it shows just what we should expect if the Bible account is correct, and only shows 3 cities that were burned down and completely destroyed, Jericho, Ai and Hazor.

 

[Brian2]

The fact is:

1. "Even though this [conquest] model has been thoroughly discredited, it remains the dominant view in many religious circles. Indeed, the challenge faced by many conservative interpreters of the Bible is the sheer lack of evidence for such a military campaign." [source; Mullins, pg 518]
2. Your definition of "evidence" is "fringe views promoted by Christian apologists," while what you dismiss as "pretty fanciful stuff" is no more than the growing consensus of science, against which you seem fully vaccinated.

Yes I'm fully vaccinated by the evidence I find that the Exodus did happen.
I hear about the Ipuwer Papyrus as evidence. I believe Egypt does not publish it's defeats. I see the dating of the Jericho destruction as evidence and the other archaeology of Canaan for the 14th century. I see the Nomads of YHWH (Shasu) as evidence. etc etc.
What makes people reject these things as evidence for the Exodus?
Certainly there has been vaccinating happening and it has led to blindness about what the real evidence is imo.

 

[blü 2]

So... logically speaking, in your view, death is the absolute end without doubt of life according to the scientific theory, do I understand your view correctly about evolution? (Being mindless...)

Humans are animals so they have a survival instinct.

They generally have a negative attitude to dying. They will however on occasions risk death in defense of children, family, group.

Neither of those things alters the fact that they'll die. Or the fact that the death of the individual when it's finished contributing to the breeding cycle is a good thing for the species.

There is no reason to think ants once dead go to judgment and eternal reward or woe.

There is no reason to think fish do either. Nor moluscs, snakes, birds, mammals, any other living thing.

What's so special about humans that an objective onlooker would think actual immortality was of any use to them or anyone else?

But (our onlooker might conclude) it may not do much harm, might occasionally even be helpful to those facing death or the possibility of death, if they think, or like to pretend, that they'll continue a self-aware existence once they're dead.

And perhaps such beliefs or pretenses might be some consolation to those of the living who are grieving a death.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

What makes people reject these things as evidence for the Exodus?

Stories -- with a capital 'S' -- are factoids and etiological myth and message stitched together for utility and polished throughout the process of transmission. Scholars "reject these things as evidence for the Exodus" because there are better informed explanations.

 

[shunyadragon]

The evidence in the ruins are Egyptian scarabs for various kings and ceramics and theses things can be used to help date the destruction to about 1400 BC, the Biblical dating for it.

Biblical Sites: Three Ways to Date the Destruction at Jericho

Children in Sunday School often sing, “Joshua fought the battle of Jericho, Jericho, Jericho. Joshua fought the battle of Jericho and the walls came a-tumbling down.” But did the walls of Jericho r…

biblearchaeologyreport.com

It sounds as if you reject the dating of the destruction of Jericho to about 1400 BC as evidence of for the Biblical story which also tells us 1400BC.
That is really weird both from you and from other scholars who do the same.
It is like saying "We know the Bible is wrong about the dating and that no large scale invasion happened, so who cares that both the Bible and archaeology say 1400BC"
Why can't you see that the dating of the destruction of Jericho is part of the evidence for the truth of the Bible story?

The numbers of Hebrews given in the Bible for the invasion might be too large, as translated, but that is no good reason to reject the whole story, which according to many archaeologists, fits with the archaeological evidence for Canaan of the 14th century.
Is the large number of Israelites all you have? Is there any evidence against the invasion apart from that?
Do you read Joshua and what it actually says?
The invaders lived in the same cities and houses. The invaders used the same stuff the Canaanites used. There were many areas that were not conquered. The archaeology shows that, it shows just what we should expect if the Bible account is correct, and only shows 3 cities that were burned down and completely destroyed, Jericho, Ai and Hazor.

I realize that dating is variable and controversial, but nonetheless, there is absolutely no evidence of an invading army led by Joshua. The extreme exaggeration of the numbers possibly involved and an army of Hebrews capturing all of Canaan cannot be justified by a battle for one city Jericho. The evidence indicates that it was the Egyptians that captured Jericho from Hyksos (Canaanites?).

I stand by the dating problems involving the whole time period when the battle likely took place.

You cannot justify the invasion of a Hebrew army led by Joshua based on one battle. for the city of Jericho.

 

[shunyadragon]

Yes I'm fully vaccinated by the evidence I find that the Exodus did happen.
I hear about the Ipuwer Papyrus as evidence. I believe Egypt does not publish it's defeats. I see the dating of the Jericho destruction as evidence and the other archaeology of Canaan for the 14th century. I see the Nomads of YHWH (Shasu) as evidence. etc etc.
What makes people reject these things as evidence for the Exodus?
Certainly there has been vaccinating happening and it has led to blindness about what the real evidence is imo.

You see Nomads as YHWH (Shasu?) Please explain why you reached this conclusion there is no such evidence.


There is absolutely no evidence of a Hebrew invasion under Joshua or a large enough migration in Exodus to explain an army invasion. There are numerous conflicts in the Pentateuch as to what Joshua actually conquered. There is absolutely no independent evidence that Joshua's army conquered

The overwhelming number of independent academic archaeologists and historians say no such invasion took place.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

You see Nomads as YHWH (Shasu?) Please explain why you reached this conclusion there is no such evidence.

I'm not at all sure what you're saying here.