Interesting discussion about religion and evolution

[Jayhawker Soule]

My sources are accurate and specific and do not support any biases.
This reference is not available to me. Need one that is available

Bye ...

 

[shunyadragon]

Skeptics like to say that about the flood and to take the YEC position on what the Bible says about the creation.
But if you believe an alternative to a creation then it is by faith, since it is not known by any other means.

Belief in an alternative does not help your case without independent evidence The description in Genesis is clear and specific and supported by what the authors of the NT believed.

 

[shunyadragon]

Bye ...

OK, you cannot provide a reference I can have access to. If you have access please cite the specifics you have plenty of room in one or more posts. One should do.

I want to confirm that the texts cited were or were not Phoenician variations common all over the Levant.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Skeptics like to say that about the flood and to take the YEC position on what the Bible says about the creation.

Because the story in the Bible is clearly talking about a global flood.

Genesis 6:9-9:17​

​

9 This is the account of Noah and his family.
Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God. 10 Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth.
11 Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. 14 So make yourself an ark of cypress[a] wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. 15 This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be three hundred cubits long, fifty cubits wide and thirty cubits high.[b] 16 Make a roof for it, leaving below the roof an opening one cubit[c] high all around.[d] Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks. 17 I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish. 18 But I will establish my covenant with you, and you will enter the ark—you and your sons and your wife and your sons’ wives with you. 19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. 21 You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them.”
22 Noah did everything just as God commanded him.
7 The Lord then said to Noah, “Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation. 2 Take with you seven pairs of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and one pair of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven pairs of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth. 4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made.”
5 And Noah did all that the Lord commanded him.



That's a description of a global flood, not a local flood.

But if you believe an alternative to a creation then it is by faith, since it is not known by any other means.

I thought you were talking about the flood story??

 

[shunyadragon]

Because the story in the Bible is clearly talking about a global flood.

Genesis 6:9-9:17​

​

9 This is the account of Noah and his family.
Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God. 10 Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth.
11 Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. 14 So make yourself an ark of cypress[a] wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. 15 This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be three hundred cubits long, fifty cubits wide and thirty cubits high.[b] 16 Make a roof for it, leaving below the roof an opening one cubit[c] high all around.[d] Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks. 17 I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish. 18 But I will establish my covenant with you, and you will enter the ark—you and your sons and your wife and your sons’ wives with you. 19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. 21 You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them.”
22 Noah did everything just as God commanded him.
7 The Lord then said to Noah, “Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation. 2 Take with you seven pairs of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and one pair of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven pairs of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth. 4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made.”
5 And Noah did all that the Lord commanded him.



That's a description of a global flood, not a local flood.

I thought you were talking about the flood story??

An important issue is the authors of the NT endorsed the literal world flood of Noah and they were well aware of a much more expansive known world including the Mediterranean, Middle East, and Africa. Some based on the argument that those who compiled and wrote Genesis did not know of an expansive world beyond their local world, but this argument fails.

 

[shunyadragon]

I presume you are talking about the Merneptah Stele, which is about a Pharaoh who had a short reign (1213 to 1204 according to current chronology) and did not live for 300 years.
I'm not sure what you are talking about.

Merneptah | Pharaoh of Egypt, 19th Dynasty Ruler, & Israel Stela | Britannica

Merneptah was a king of the 19th dynasty of ancient Egypt and a son of Ramses II. After his victory over the Libyans and Sea Peoples, four commemorative stelae were made, one of which is the earliest attestation of a people called Israel.

www.britannica.com

Reread the reference to the Merneptah Stele carefully. It is a historical record covering the conquests beginning with Libya and then describing the Conquest of Canaan and Israel.

Like many monuments in history, it was bragging about its history of conquests. Unfortunately, it was put up at a time when Egypt was retreating from Canaan, and Israel was becoming a Kingdom.

 

[YoursTrue]

Well. Fearing death is a healthy instinct, for a biological organism, or maybe, the biologic organic part of a much more complex and unknown entity. As some would suggest. I do not know, but I do know that the universe is a lot more mysterious and weird, than some very skeptical people might appreciate.

I am moderately skeptical, but with caveats.

Caveat number 1 is simple, I don't have access to all possible information about reality/the universe.

Me either, but it makes sense to me that man is different from, let's say, gorillas or fish, in their desire and ability to heal themselves with things like splints, operations, also write history books. There is, in my mind, a vast difference between humans in general==assuming they are of reasonable mental capabilities--and chimpanzees or, as I say, fish.

 

[shunyadragon]

Me either, but it makes sense to me that man is different from, let's say, gorillas or fish, in their desire and ability to heal themselves with things like splints, operations, also write history books. There is, in my mind, a vast difference between humans in general==assuming they are of reasonable mental capabilities--and chimpanzees or, as I say, fish.

Differences are simply a product of evolution in response to changing environments over billions of years.

 

[YoursTrue]

The question is what motivates you to believe in a God only because Christins claim you will live forevr if you do?

And it's not just belief in a God, but a set of other ideas that Jesus was executed so humans will have salvation. None of these are plausible nor make sense. So what led to belief?

Why need any of these? What is the intention if not emotional needs, and to offset fear of death?

Really, not Jesus as savior?

Really, no everlasting life in heaven? Why do so many Christian claim they have it because they believe they are saved through Jesus?

Yes. You don't seem to have thought out why you believe in Christianity. Your answers are contradictory.

Every theists should be able to answer why they believe what they do, vrsis not believing at all. Let's note that every believer rejects a long list of other religions, so why did the believer pick the one they did, and not another? Did they even have a choice, lik kids who grew up Catholic and had no option to be Muslim or reject religion?

The idea of living forever can be enticing for some I am sure, but before I believed in God as written in the Bible and studying it, the idea of living forever was foreign to me. Yet I didn't want to die. Since I studied the Bible and meditated on it, I no longer believe it is impossible to live forever.
John 17:3 - "This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ."

 

[shunyadragon]

The idea of living forever can be enticing for some I am sure, but before I believed in God as written in the Bible and studying it, the idea of living forever was foreign to me. Yet I didn't want to die. Since I studied the Bible and meditated on it, I no longer believe it is impossible to live forever.
John 17:3 - "This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ."

There is, of course. comfort in illusions of subjective beliefs, and desire for immortality as long as human culture has been around for all cultures.

 

[Little Dragon]

There is, in my mind, a vast difference between humans in general==assuming they are of reasonable mental capabilities--and chimpanzees or, as I say, fish.

Chimpanzees are vastly more intelligent than the average fish. Compared to fish, humans and chimps are not much different, intellectually, both are tool using problem solving species.

 

[shunyadragon]

Chimpanzees are vastly more intelligent than the average fish. Compared to fish, humans and chimps are not much different, intellectually, both are tool using problem solving species.

Actually, cephalopods like the octopus are far more intelligent than most of the above and possibly equivalent to the Chimps

 

[Little Dragon]

Actually, cephalopods like the octopus are far more intelligent than most of the above and possibly equivalent to the Chimps

They certainly are! Wonderful animals. Not fish of course. Smartest invertebrates on Earth, possibly.

 

[F1fan]

The idea of living forever can be enticing for some I am sure, but before I believed in God as written in the Bible and studying it, the idea of living forever was foreign to me. Yet I didn't want to die. Since I studied the Bible and meditated on it, I no longer believe it is impossible to live forever.
John 17:3 - "This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ."

Well, there's no reason to think we live forever, because we do die. It's a fact. We are better off accepting that fact.

 

[Sargonski]

Well, there's no reason to think we live forever, because we do die. It's a fact. We are better off accepting that fact.

Existence is eternal .. "So it is written - So it shall be done !!" Worry not bout what kills the body .. but what kills the soul ..

 

[Subduction Zone]

The Bible justifies itself because it is reliable for archaeological finds and its prophetic capacity. Now... you personally don't have to agree with me but no one has provided me with evidence contrary to my position.

Is it? Besides the rather minor ones, such as evidence that there really was a King David, I do not know of very many, if any, that support the more outrageous claims of the Bible. That evidence appears to be missing. I have seen "evidence" that was rather quickly refuted, but believers still keep using it even though those that study archaeology can tell you why it is wrong or even fraudulent.

 

[SavedByTheLord]

Because the story in the Bible is clearly talking about a global flood.

Genesis 6:9-9:17​

​

9 This is the account of Noah and his family.
Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God. 10 Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth.
11 Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. 14 So make yourself an ark of cypress[a] wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. 15 This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be three hundred cubits long, fifty cubits wide and thirty cubits high.[b] 16 Make a roof for it, leaving below the roof an opening one cubit[c] high all around.[d] Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks. 17 I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish. 18 But I will establish my covenant with you, and you will enter the ark—you and your sons and your wife and your sons’ wives with you. 19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. 21 You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them.”
22 Noah did everything just as God commanded him.
7 The Lord then said to Noah, “Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation. 2 Take with you seven pairs of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and one pair of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven pairs of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth. 4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made.”
5 And Noah did all that the Lord commanded him.



That's a description of a global flood, not a local flood.

I thought you were talking about the flood story??

Great point as the passage is clearly speaking of a global flood.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Great point as the passage is clearly speaking of a global flood.

Yes, and we know that that did not happen.

 

[Kenny]

Is it? Besides the rather minor ones, such as evidence that there really was a King David, I do not know of very many, if any, that support the more outrageous claims of the Bible. That evidence appears to be missing. I have seen "evidence" that was rather quickly refuted, but believers still keep using it even though those that study archaeology can tell you why it is wrong or even fraudulent.

I disagree. I would hold that people time and time again have tried to refute the evidence but end up being refuted.

What was "outrageous" centuries ago is today's reality. It is more like two people looking at the same evidence and coming to two different conclusions. Like you are touching an elephant's tail as a blind man and saying their trunk is abnormally small.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I disagree. I would hold that people time and time again have tried to refute the evidence but end up being refuted.

You are just telling yourself stories again. Please give some examples. Do you remember about a year or two about the meteor strike and Sodom and Gomorrah? That was refuted. Do you remember about the "cursing tablet". That was refuted.

What was "outrageous" centuries ago is today's reality. It is more like two people looking at the same evidence and coming to two different conclusions. Like you are touching an elephant's tail as a blind man and saying their trunk is abnormally small.

Don't give me that "same evidence" nonsense. That has never worked out well for believers. The fact is that there are severe problems with many Bible tales. And not just in the Old Testament. The two nativity myths have a birth date ten years apart. f one reads them in parallel the differences become irreconcilable.


It is better to try to focus on the message of the Bible rather than trying to act as if it were infallible in any way at all.