Interesting discussion about religion and evolution

[Brian2]

I disagree.

@SkepticThinker quoted a few passages to illustrate. I don't see how you can "re-interprete" those passages to mean something opposite to what they say.

It's not re interpretation it is re translating so that when it says "earth" it is changed to "land" and when it says "mountains" it is changed to "hills" etc.
The whole meaning can be changed with legitimate translation changes like that.

 

[Brian2]

No. Nor does it falsify claims concerning Area 51. You continue to demonstrate that these discussions with you are hopeless.​

Yes we all demonstrate that to each other I guess.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Does any of that show that Joshua's conquest did not happen?

Does anything show that Thor did not slay the ice giants?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It's not re interpretation it is re translating so that when it says "earth" it is changed to "land" and when it says "mountains" it is changed to "hills" etc.

And when it says "all people" it is changed to "some people"
And when it says "all animals" it is changed to "some animals"

And off course, there would be exactly zero point to take "pairs of animals" on the boat if it was just a local flood.
In fact.... the entire idea of a boat would be pointless if it was just a local flood.

As we are speaking, a big storm is raging in Scotland causing massive flooding.
The governing bodies didn't ask those people to "build a boat".
Instead, they asked to move to other area's.

That's the sensible thing to do.

The entire story makes zero sense even if it concerns only a local flood. In fact even more so then with a global flood.
According to the story, Noah spend years / decades building this physically impossible boat.
He had enough time to move half way accross the globe in that time frame.

It is completely absurd.
The only way the whole boat thing even only makes remotely sense, is if there was no escape from the water. And that could only be the case if the flood were global.

Bottom line is that it matters not from which angle you approach this. ALL angles are utterly absurd.

The whole meaning can be changed with legitimate translation changes like that.

And even if you bend over backwards like that, it stays equally absurd.

 

[F1fan]

Great point as the passage is clearly speaking of a global flood.

In a book guilty of massive embellishment and copying of other stories and symbols.

 

[Brian2]

You're ignoring the actual archaeological evidence of the presence of Egypt all over Canaan. There are forts, mansions, temples, and other structures all over Canaan dating from before 1500 BCE to about 1200 BCE.

Check the dates Egypt was there for more than 300 years over the period that Joshua was supposed to invade Canaan. No the devastation of the plagues(?) did not stop the conquest and colonization which started before the plagues.

The Armana letters show that Egypt was not there in Canaan fighting to enemies of the Canaanite states Egypt had conquered. I guess the forts and mansions etc were still there but the presence of the helping army of Egypt was not there while Joshua was conquering around 1400 BC.

Excellent reference om the history of languages found in the tablets at this site, but it does not remotely address the issue of Egypt in Canaan between 1500 BCE and about 1200 BCE. The communication with Letters from the great powers (Babylonia, Assyria, Mitanni, and the Hittite court) and not Canaan. This reference describes an important archaeological site Akhetaton on the Nile River

The Merneptah Stele does cover that period as referenced because it began with the conquest of Libya

It is about Mernepthah's problems and fights and victories in his very short reign.

Merneptah Stele - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The ~1400 BCE date is okay for the battle of Jericho when the Egyptians captured the city. That date is right in the middle of Egypt's Conquest of Canaan as referenced. Egypt's colonization of Canaan ended about 1200-1100 BCE when Israel arose and first became a kingdom and occupied much of Canaan territory. Yes, the evidence is overwhelming that the kingdom of Israel arose after Egypt retreated from Canaan about 1200-1000 BCE the archaeological evidence and the first primitive Hebrew written language evolved.

Thutmose 111 conquered Megiddo and so Canaan around 1457 or before, depending which chronology is used. I think you are just quessing that it also conquered Jericho also, just to be contrary.

You still have not responded to the problem of Joshua's claim of the conquest of Canaan I cited, which conflicts with your statements and later references in the Torah. It remains there is absolutely no evidence of Joshua's army and the conquest of Canaan as described in the reference I provided,

Still waiting . . .

I thought I gave some sort of answer here #246

 

[Brian2]

And when it says "all people" it is changed to "some people"
And when it says "all animals" it is changed to "some animals"

When it says all people in the land it means that.
When it says all animals in the land it means that.

And off course, there would be exactly zero point to take "pairs of animals" on the boat if it was just a local flood.
In fact.... the entire idea of a boat would be pointless if it was just a local flood.

As we are speaking, a big storm is raging in Scotland causing massive flooding.
The governing bodies didn't ask those people to "build a boat".
Instead, they asked to move to other area's.

That's the sensible thing to do.

The entire story makes zero sense even if it concerns only a local flood. In fact even more so then with a global flood.
According to the story, Noah spend years / decades building this physically impossible boat.
He had enough time to move half way accross the globe in that time frame.

It is completely absurd.
The only way the whole boat thing even only makes remotely sense, is if there was no escape from the water. And that could only be the case if the flood were global.

Bottom line is that it matters not from which angle you approach this. ALL angles are utterly absurd.


And even if you bend over backwards like that, it stays equally absurd.

Noah was left there as a prophet to tell the people of the coming disaster.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Noah was left there as a prophet to tell the people of the coming disaster.

Which was an exercise in futility since god would have known nobody would listen and they would end up dead anyway.


You can't weasel yourself out of this.
It's absurd from A to Z.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The whole meaning can be changed with legitimate translation changes like that.

To better understand your definition of "legitimate translation," please provide the source of your preferred translation of Genesis 7:21-23, as well as an informed justification of this translation.

 

[SkepticThinker]

That's nice, you are fighting for the honour of the Word of God.
But the Bible can be translated and understood in such a way that it represents a large local flood.

How? Details please.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Yes as translated it is a global flood.

Because that's what it says.

How do you personally interpret that to mean a "local" flood? Please explain in detail.

 

[shunyadragon]

The Armana letters show that Egypt was not there in Canaan fighting to enemies of the Canaanite states Egypt had conquered. I guess the forts and mansions etc were still there but the presence of the helping army of Egypt was not there while Joshua was conquering around 1400 BC.

Nonsense. The letters are only correspondence with nations that Egypt was not at war with. When you are at war there is no correspondence. There were two types of letters: "Letters from the great powers (Babylonia, Assyria, Mitanni, and the Hittite court) are often preoccupied with the exchange of gifts and diplomatic marriages."

and letters from the occupied and colonized states of Canaan: "Those from the vassal states of Syro-Palestine deal with the local political and military situation and are often filled with complaints of inattention on the part of the Egyptian court."

The objectively verifiable evidence of the dating of the buildings is through the 300-year-plus period Joshua claimed to invade and conquer Canaan.was there over the three hundred years during which the claim that Joshua invaded Canaan. There is absolutely no evidence. There are no records in Egypt or the other surrounding countries that Joshua's invasion and conquest took place. In fact no evidence or record anywhere except in the Bible. The date of the battle of Jericho being ~1400 BCE is not evidence. It is simply evidence that the battle took place.

It is about Mernepthah's problems and fights and victories in his very short reign.

Merneptah Stele - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

No problem at all simply it is a record of past conquers and the occupation of these lands. These are simple facts recorded on the Stele supported by other Egyptian records and sources previously cited..

Thutmose 111 conquered Megiddo and so Canaan around 1457 or before, depending which chronology is used. I think you are just quessing that it also conquered Jericho also, just to be contrary.

No not being contrary at all. It is simply a fact the Egyptian armies are the only known armies conquering and occupying Canaan between 1500 and 1200 BCE by the evidence.

The following previously cited shows an Egyptian relief dated ~1400 BCE showing Canaanite captives, and the article details much of the evidence for the Egyptian invasion and conquest.

Features - Egypt’s Final Redoubt in Canaan - Archaeology Magazine - July/August 2017

The fiery end of the last Egyptian colony

www.archaeology.org

Egypt’s Final Redoubt in Canaan

The fiery end of the last Egyptian colony

By ROGER ATWOOD

July/August 2017

(Image copyright © The Metropolitan Museum of Art/Art Resource, NY)
A fragment of a painted limestone relief dating to about 1400 B.C. from Thebes in Egypt depicts defeated Canaanites.

For three centuries, Egyptians ruled the land of Canaan. Armies of chariots and 10,000 foot soldiers under the pharaoh Thutmose III thundered through Gaza and defeated a coalition of Canaanite chiefdoms at Megiddo, in what is now northern Israel, in 1458 B.C. The Egyptians then built fortresses, mansions, and agricultural estates from Gaza to Galilee, taking Canaan’s finest products—copper from Dead Sea mines, cedar from Lebanon, olive oil and wine from the Mediterranean coast, along with untold numbers of slaves and concubines—and sending them overland and across the Mediterranean and Red Seas to Egypt to please its elites.

 

[shunyadragon]

I thought I gave some sort of answer here #246

That response was not adequate based on the citation from the Book of Joshua.

10:40 So Joshua subdued the whole region, including the hill country, the Negev, the western foothills and the mountain slopes, together with all their kings. He left no survivors. He totally destroyed all who breathed, just as the Lord, the God of Israel, had commanded. 41 Joshua subdued them from Kadesh Barnea to Gaza and from the whole region of Goshen to Gibeon. 42 All these kings and their lands Joshua conquered in one campaign, because the Lord, the God of Israel, fought for Israel.

 

[Subduction Zone]

What part of all your tales is wrong? What part of "tales" do you not comprehend?

Please, just try for a little honesty. I did not tell "tales". I told you what historians know. But as usual you do not appear to want to know. You only want to believe in your personal myths.

Hey... you even say there is no God. Not THAT is a TALL tale.

Where did I say that? I will say that no one seems to have a valid reason to believe in a god. At least from my experience. They always fail when it comes to their burden of proof.

 

[shunyadragon]

Existence is eternal .. "So it is written - So it shall be done !!" Worry not bout what kills the body .. but what kills the soul ..

Depends on which of the many diverse and conflicting religious subjective human beliefs you choose as to what happens to the soul if it exists.

 

[shunyadragon]

The Merneptah Stele, the Only Ancient Egyptian Document that Mentions Israel : History of Information

The Merneptah Stele, the Only Ancient Egyptian Document that Mentions Israel

www.historyofinformation.com

No the Stele covers a fairly short period of time and Canaan is mentioned only for a couple of lines.

Read your reference again you either cannot read or you are lying. It covers a range of historical conquests. The conquest of Canaan was between ~1500- 1200 BCE. as previously referenced citing evidence which confirms what is on the Stele.

 

[John53]

I disagree. I would hold that people time and time again have tried to refute the evidence but end up being refuted.

What was "outrageous" centuries ago is today's reality. It is more like two people looking at the same evidence and coming to two different conclusions. Like you are touching an elephant's tail as a blind man and saying their trunk is abnormally small.

I disagree. It's like two people looking at the same evidence and one agreeing with what the evidence shows and the other saying I won't agree with anything that doesn't come to same conclusion as my religious beliefs.

 

[shunyadragon]

Looks like it is all about Mernepthah and his victories to me. Mernepthah bragging about his conquests, not about the conquests of Egypt over 300 years in Canaan. You need your glasses.

Memnepthan is not known for any conquests in his short reign. Documentation already provided concerning the Conquest and colonization of Canaan over a period of over 300 years.

Memnethan was known for successfully defending occupied Canaan and Libya

Memnepthan may have attacked Israel because Israel was at this time trying to expand into the Region where the Canaan were defeated and the Egyptians were weakening.

 

[Sargonski]

Depends on which of the many diverse and conflicting religious subjective human beliefs you choose as to what happens to the soul if it exists.

"subjective human beliefs" ? Please tell me we are not riding into existentialist fallacy land .. "Life is but a Dream" Row Row Row your boat .. ? is that it. Prove that life is not but a dream .. in which case existence is eternal so long as the la la land dream continues.

Objective - Empiracle Evidence - are words you should cling to- when I tell you true .. that existence is eternal .. Proven .. mathematically.. no religion required .. following the path of evolution to its logical conclusion .. making only one assumption .. can you guess what that is ?

"Time if Infinite" - as long a the universe exists .. like it or not .. you are here with it.

Definition -- "What is YOU" - as you must be defined .. in order to exist . or at least be shown to exist. - a not so random collection of molecules .. that somehow came together .. in some configuration of matter and energy .. that one day opened up its eyes .. and realized that it existence .. had what we will call the "I AM" moment. Where does the "I AM" go when you are dreaming btw ? pardon the digression .. has nothing to do with the proof

Now .. you might think you are special.... having all those unique qualities that make you human ... but looking around you find that there are a whole bunch more just like you out there .. so not so special ... Yet .. somehow .. in the sea of random chaos .. Energy and matter came together in the right configuration to create YOU .. "I AM"

The Proof ? The Empiracle evidence that this is True .. is that you exist.. and in fact the only thing you know for sure .. like the answer to "Life is but a dream" .. is that one day this did indeed happen .. you opened up eyes and realized " I Drink Therfor I AM" .. but that is it my precious

In order for you to exist -- there had to be a finite probability of all those molecules coming together in the right configuration to produce you.
Now it matters not what that probability is .. as .. in an infinite amount of time .. all finite probabilities repeat infinitly .. and so .. rather like the fellow in the moving that finds himself waking up on the same day over and over and over .. such is the soul .. cept unlike the poor fellow in the movie the soul wakes up at different points in time.

U understand ?

 

[shunyadragon]

"subjective human beliefs" ? Please tell me we are not riding into existentialist fallacy land .. "Life is but a Dream" Row Row Row your boat .. ? is that it. Prove that life is not but a dream .. in which case existence is eternal so long as the la la land dream continues.

No none of the above.

Objective - Empiracle Evidence - are words you should cling to- when I tell you true .. that existence is eternal .. Proven .. mathematically.. no religion required .. following the path of evolution to its logical conclusion .. making only one assumption .. can you guess what that is ?

"Time if Infinite" - as long a the universe exists .. like it or not .. you are here with it.

Definition -- "What is YOU" - as you must be defined .. in order to exist . or at least be shown to exist. - a not so random collection of molecules .. that somehow came together .. in some configuration of matter and energy .. that one day opened up its eyes .. and realized that it existence .. had what we will call the "I AM" moment. Where does the "I AM" go when you are dreaming btw ? pardon the digression .. has nothing to do with the proof

Kind of rambling without Coherent meaning. There is no proof.

Now .. you might think you are special.... having all those unique qualities that make you human ... but looking around you find that there are a whole bunch more just like you out there .. so not so special ... Yet .. somehow .. in the sea of random chaos .. Energy and matter came together in the right configuration to create YOU .. "I AM"

The Proof ? The Empiracle evidence that this is True .. is that you exist.. and in fact the only thing you know for sure .. like the answer to "Life is but a dream" .. is that one day this did indeed happen .. you opened up eyes and realized " I Drink Therfor I AM" .. but that is it my precious

No proof of anything, all of the above and the following is based on one of many diverse conflicting subjective human beliefs nothing more.

In order for you to exist -- there had to be a finite probability of all those molecules coming together in the right configuration to produce you.Now it matters not what that probability is .. as .. in an infinite amount of time .. all finite probabilities repeat infinitly .. and so .. rather like the fellow in the moving that finds himself waking up on the same day over and over and over .. such is the soul .. cept unlike the poor fellow in the movie the soul wakes up at different points in time.

U understand ?

You apparently do not understand the basics of math and science. Your English is questionable.

The cause-and-effect outcomes in nature are based on Natural Laws and natural processes. Your misuse of probability reflects your ignorance of science and math. Probability is part of the statistics toolbox to confirm the outcome of research.