Interesting discussion about religion and evolution

[shunyadragon]

When it says all people in the land it means that.
When it says all animals in the land it means that.



Noah was left there as a prophet to tell the people of the coming disaster.

The authors of the NT believed it was a world flood.

 

[Sargonski]

No none of the above.

Kind of rambling without Coherent meaning. There is no proof.

No proof of anything, all of the above and the following is based on one of many diverse conflicting subjective human beliefs nothing more.


You apparently do not understand the basics of math and science. Your English is questionable.

The cause-and-effect outcomes in nature are based on Natural Laws and natural processes. Your misuse of probability reflects your ignorance of science and math. Probability is part of the statistics toolbox to confirm the outcome of research.

holy Carp what a rambling pile of insults .. which, I don't mind so much so long as they are not naked.. not backed up with anything.

"Ignorance in Science and Math" - "rambling without coherent meaning - there is no proof"

You have not addressed the proof I gave .. with anything other than incoherent rambling and unsupported accusations. So .. on this basis .. looks like you are the one ignorant in Science and Math .. projecting your failings onto me thinking this is some kind of valid argument for something.

How was probability misused ? --- all I said was "in an infinite amount of time .. all finite probabilities re-occur infinitely"

What is the problem with the above statement .. and what are your "Math-Science" credentials in this little pud measuring contest you wish to engage. Did you not realize that any moron with a computer can cut and past random definitional gibberish .. in some desperate attempt to win a debate by trying to appear knowledgable in a subject. ?! but then one day you run into a real Scientist .. and then your hoop ta dee duped.

What is the point of saying "Probabiity is part of the statistics toolbox to confirm the outcome of research" ? .. Who cares .. and completely irrelevant to calculation of reincarnation ? Cause and effect outcomes in nature are exactly what we are calculating .. based on natural laws and natural processes . How was "probability" misused ? and what are your credentials

 

[shunyadragon]

holy Carp what a rambling pile of insults .. which, I don't mind so much so long as they are not naked.. not backed up with anything.

"Ignorance in Science and Math" - "rambling without coherent meaning - there is no proof"

You have not addressed the proof I gave .. with anything other than incoherent rambling and unsupported accusations. So .. on this basis .. looks like you are the one ignorant in Science and Math .. projecting your failings onto me thinking this is some kind of valid argument for something.

How was probability misused ? --- all I said was "in an infinite amount of time .. all finite probabilities re-occur infinitely"

What is the problem with the above statement .. and what are your "Math-Science" credentials in this little pud measuring contest you wish to engage. Did you not realize that any moron with a computer can cut and past random definitional gibberish .. in some desperate attempt to win a debate by trying to appear knowledgable in a subject. ?! but then one day you run into a real Scientist .. and then your hoop ta dee duped.What is the point of saying "Probabiity is part of the statistics toolbox to confirm the outcome of research" ? .. Who cares .. and completely irrelevant to calculation of reincarnation ? Cause and effect outcomes in nature are exactly what we are calculating .. based on natural laws and natural processes . How was "probability" misused ? and what are your credentials

The point in saying "Probability is part of the statistics toolbox to confirm the outcome of research" because that is the only proper way probability is used. For example: The scientist calculated the probability of his research project to determine if his sample size is adequate to justify his conclusions.

No attempt the win a debate without a coherent proposal to debate. Nothing here has been proven here

I have a Masters in Geology. I have three college and graduate-level courses in statistics.

Probability and Statistics

www.math.net

Probability and Statistics​

Probability and statistics are two branches of mathematics concerning the collection, analysis, interpretation, and display of data in the context of random events. They are often studied together due to their interrelationship.

Basic probability terms​

In order to discuss probability, it is important to be familiar with the terminology used. Below are some of the terms commonly used in probability.

• Experiment - a procedure that results in well-defined outcomes. A random experiment is one in which it is not possible to determine which exact outcome will occur.
• Outcome - any possible result contained in a sample space, S.
• Sample space - all possible outcomes of an experiment form a sample space. The sample space for the flip of a fair coin is S = {heads, tails}.
• Event - an event is any subset of a sample space. Given an event, A, when an outcome that belongs to the subset A occurs, an event has occurred. For example, given that event A is the event that a fair six-sided die lands on an even number, the outcomes 2, 4, and 6 all satisfy event A. If any of those values are rolled, event A has occurred. If 1, 3, or 5, are rolled, event A does not occur.
• Trial - Each flip of a coin, roll of a die, or iteration of an experiment is referred to as a trial. In the experiment of flipping a coin to determine the number of heads, each flip of the coin is a trial in the experiment.

You are misusing probability

 

[Brian2]

Which was an exercise in futility since god would have known nobody would listen and they would end up dead anyway.


You can't weasel yourself out of this.
It's absurd from A to Z.

God gives people a chance. They then cannot say that they did not know or had not heard about it.

 

[John53]

God gives people a chance. They then cannot say that they did not know or had not heard about it.

What about Aboriginals 20,000 years ago? Or even 500 years ago?

 

[Kenny]

Please, just try for a little honesty. I did not tell "tales". I told you what historians know. But as usual you do not appear to want to know. You only want to believe in your personal myths.

Try? Honestly? I’m truly not sure if you know the meaning.

I understand you completely that you don’t believe in the historical references in the bible and so you relegate it to the broad paint-brush of “myths”.

Historians are wide a varying. I have no problem with you selecting the ones that line up with your position.

Where did I say that? I will say that no one seems to have a valid reason to believe in a god. At least from my experience. They always fail when it comes to their burden of proof.

You say it with every painting you brush with. Failing is only in the eyes of the beholder as far as God is concerned. It always amuses me when people say “There is no God because there is no proof” while billions declare that the believe through the infallible proofs that they see.

It comes down to my mantra that I have said again and again… two people looking at the same evidence and coming to different conclusions.

I have no problem with people holding on to the foolish statement that there is no God. It is your right that I support you in.

 

[Brian2]

To better understand your definition of "legitimate translation," please provide the source of your preferred translation of Genesis 7:21-23, as well as an informed justification of this translation.

Gen 7:21 Every living thing that moved on land perished—birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. 22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23 Every living thing on the face of the land was wiped out; people and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds were wiped from the land. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.
24 The waters flooded the land for a hundred and fifty days.

 

[Brian2]

Because that's what it says.

How do you personally interpret that to mean a "local" flood? Please explain in detail.

Give me a text as Jayhawker Soule did and I will do my best.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Try? Honestly? I’m truly not sure if you know the meaning.

I understand you completely that you don’t believe in the historical references in the bible and so you relegate it to the broad paint-brush of “myths”.

Historians are wide a varying. I have no problem with you selecting the ones that line up with your position.

We went over this. There are experts in the various fields. They earn respect by publishing in various professional journals. That is who I rely upon. These are people that want to know. "Belief" is not that important to them. You on the other hand do not refer to historians. You refer to apologists, and I have not see a Christian apologist that is not willing to lie to make a case. Apologists are not valid sources. Whether Christian apologists when discussing whether various aspects of the Bible are true or Muslim apologists, or Hindu or those of any other religion.

You say it with every painting you brush with. Failing is only in the eyes of the beholder as far as God is concerned. It always amuses me when people say “There is no God because there is no proof” while billions declare that the believe through the infallible proofs that they see.

Sorry, you are conflating a rational lack of belief with a positive affirmation. Irrational people will believe that things exist or even do not exist without sufficient evidence. I try to keep an open mind. You are just irritated because using rational thought reduces the various gods to other mythical creatures. The rules are the same for all of them. Show me some valid evidence and I can change my mind.

Did you watch the Ken Ham Bill Nye debate? Remembering the title of the debate do you know when Ken Ham lost it? He lost it so badly that one poll that I saw of Christians had him losing 80% to 20% roughly.

And once again, what you need to show is evidence not proof. You tip your own hand when you use improper terminology. You are showing that you are not reasoning rationally when you cannot avoid a strawman.

It comes down to my mantra that I have said again and again… two people looking at the same evidence and coming to different conclusions.

And there you go showing that you do not even understand the concept of evidence. Don't worry. Most believers do not. For example when it comes to evolution, there is only evidence for evolution. That is not the fault of scientists. That is the fault of creationists. Proper evidence points only one way. What you are seeing is probably not evidence.

I have no problem with people holding on to the foolish statement that there is no God. It is your right that I support you in.

And there goes the strawman argument again. If you have to use strawman arguments you are probably wrong.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Gen 7:21 Every living thing that moved on land perished—birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. 22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23 Every living thing on the face of the land was wiped out; people and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds were wiped from the land. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.
24 The waters flooded the land for a hundred and fifty days.

Do you realize that is a testable claim? Scientists can test that can see if it ever happened.

 

[Aupmanyav]

OP Link: "And to our atheist and agnostic readers, I ask an inverted form of the same question: Would it be possible to believe in a God who had set the universe running through processes such as evolution — including the reality that death was just the end of consciousness?"

Nothing new there. Muslims too say the same thing. Big Bang true, Evolution true, but God got it rolling.
Belief in God is essential. Because belief in Jesus or Muhammad or any of the propounders monotheist religions hinges on acceptance of existence of God, though they cannot provide any evidence for that.
No God means no prophet/son/messenger/manifestation/mahdi. That also denies their scriptures being the truth.
The concern is less about God but more about acceptance of the prophet/son/messenger/manifestation/mahdi.

 

[Brian2]

Nonsense. The letters are only correspondence with nations that Egypt was not at war with. When you are at war there is no correspondence. There were two types of letters: "Letters from the great powers (Babylonia, Assyria, Mitanni, and the Hittite court) are often preoccupied with the exchange of gifts and diplomatic marriages."

and letters from the occupied and colonized states of Canaan: "Those from the vassal states of Syro-Palestine deal with the local political and military situation and are often filled with complaints of inattention on the part of the Egyptian court."

Maybe it is how I express myself, and that is why you cannot seem to understand me.
I agree with what the highlighted part above says. In the Armana letters there are a lot of complaints from the vassal states of Syro-Palestine that Egypt is not being a good ruling overlord empire and coming to help deal with the problems those states were having with military problems.
IOW Canaan was having military trouble in the 14th century which Egypt was not dealing with. Was this the invasion by Israel or something else. It seems to be about the Happiru and so Israel could have been mistaken for them.

The objectively verifiable evidence of the dating of the buildings is through the 300-year-plus period Joshua claimed to invade and conquer Canaan.was there over the three hundred years during which the claim that Joshua invaded Canaan. There is absolutely no evidence. There are no records in Egypt or the other surrounding countries that Joshua's invasion and conquest took place. In fact no evidence or record anywhere except in the Bible. The date of the battle of Jericho being ~1400 BCE is not evidence. It is simply evidence that the battle took place.

The full scale conquest only lasted 6 or 7 years and then the land conquered was big enough for Israel to settle in peacefully for some time, and it seems that Egypt was too busy with other issues to worry much about it's vassal states in Canaan.
But the presence of Egyptian buildings shows that Egypt was important in Canaan yes, but that does not mean that they hindered the conquest.

No problem at all simply it is a record of past conquers and the occupation of these lands. These are simple facts recorded on the Stele supported by other Egyptian records and sources previously cited..

No the Mernepthah Stele is about the conquests of Mernepthah during his reign (1213-1203 BC)
From this site: Merneptah Stele - Wikipedia
"The text is largely an account of Merneptah's victory over the ancient Libyans and their allies, but the last three of the 28 lines deal with a separate campaign in Canaan, then part of Egypt's imperial possessions."

No not being contrary at all. It is simply a fact the Egyptian armies are the only known armies conquering and occupying Canaan between 1500 and 1200 BCE by the evidence.

Not true. The Armana letters show that Canaan was having trouble with other army/ies during the 14th century BC and that Egypt was not dealing with it.

The following previously cited shows an Egyptian relief dated ~1400 BCE showing Canaanite captives, and the article details much of the evidence for the Egyptian invasion and conquest.

Features - Egypt’s Final Redoubt in Canaan - Archaeology Magazine - July/August 2017

The fiery end of the last Egyptian colony

www.archaeology.org

Egypt’s Final Redoubt in Canaan

The fiery end of the last Egyptian colony

By ROGER ATWOOD

July/August 2017

(Image copyright © The Metropolitan Museum of Art/Art Resource, NY)
A fragment of a painted limestone relief dating to about 1400 B.C. from Thebes in Egypt depicts defeated Canaanites.

For three centuries, Egyptians ruled the land of Canaan. Armies of chariots and 10,000 foot soldiers under the pharaoh Thutmose III thundered through Gaza and defeated a coalition of Canaanite chiefdoms at Megiddo, in what is now northern Israel, in 1458 B.C. The Egyptians then built fortresses, mansions, and agricultural estates from Gaza to Galilee, taking Canaan’s finest products—copper from Dead Sea mines, cedar from Lebanon, olive oil and wine from the Mediterranean coast, along with untold numbers of slaves and concubines—and sending them overland and across the Mediterranean and Red Seas to Egypt to please its elites.

The artwork above is from around 1400BC (before the Israelite conquest) and shows defeated Canaanites from around 1458 or earlier when Egypt captured Canaan by conquering Megiddo. This was even before the Exodus.
In the book of Exodus the Pharaoh realised that the population of the Israelites was too big and that they could join forces with the other Canaanites and overcome the Egyptians, so the Israelites were made slaves, just as the other defeated Canaanites were slaves. Then in the Exodus it seems a lot of the slaves exited with Israel.

 

[Brian2]

That response was not adequate based on the citation from the Book of Joshua.

10:40 So Joshua subdued the whole region, including the hill country, the Negev, the western foothills and the mountain slopes, together with all their kings. He left no survivors. He totally destroyed all who breathed, just as the Lord, the God of Israel, had commanded. 41 Joshua subdued them from Kadesh Barnea to Gaza and from the whole region of Goshen to Gibeon. 42 All these kings and their lands Joshua conquered in one campaign, because the Lord, the God of Israel, fought for Israel.

So that gives an area of land that was subdued and Joshua later also gives areas of land that were not subdued. What's the problem?
And Israel only destroyed 3 cities and burned them and then dwelt in the cities they had conquered.

 

[Brian2]

Read your reference again you either cannot read or you are lying. It covers a range of historical conquests. The conquest of Canaan was between ~1500- 1200 BCE. as previously referenced citing evidence which confirms what is on the Stele.

Yes the conquest of Canaan was earlier than Mernephtah. It was in 1458 or earlier depending on the Egyptian Chronoly used.
Mernephtah's campaign on the Stele in Canaan was a long time after the conquest of Canaan and includes Israel a people who had not been in Canaan previously but were then (around 1200) there as a political force.
This is the problem, how did Israel get there? Was it through conquest around 1400BC as the Bible tells us or was it through slow migration or was it that parts of the Canaanites united and took over or what?

 

[Brian2]

Memnepthan is not known for any conquests in his short reign. Documentation already provided concerning the Conquest and colonization of Canaan over a period of over 300 years.

Memnethan was known for successfully defending occupied Canaan and Libya

Memnepthan may have attacked Israel because Israel was at this time trying to expand into the Region where the Canaan were defeated and the Egyptians were weakening.

From this site: Merneptah Stele - Wikipedia

Egypt was the dominant power in the region during the long reign of Merneptah's predecessor, Ramesses the Great, but Merneptah and one of his nearest successors, Ramesses III, faced major invasions. The problems began in Merneptah's 5th year (1208 BC), when a Libyan king invaded Egypt from the west in alliance with various northern peoples. Merneptah achieved a great victory in the summer of that year, and the inscription is mainly about this. The final lines deal with an apparently separate campaign in the East, where it seems that some of the Canaanite cities had revolted. Traditionally the Egyptians had concerned themselves only with cities, so the problem presented by Israel must have been something new – possibly attacks on Egypt's vassals in Canaan. Merneptah and Ramesses III fought off their enemies, but it was the beginning of the end of Egypt's control over Canaan – the last evidence of an Egyptian presence in the area is the name of Ramesses VI (1141–1133 BC) inscribed on a statue base from Megiddo.[13]

Israel may have, Israel may have that. Anything but the story in the Bible which fits the evidence for what happened.

 

[Brian2]

Do you realize that is a testable claim? Scientists can test that can see if it ever happened.

OK.

 

[Subduction Zone]

OK.

Okay.. So science refutes even your version of Genesis.

And of course history refutes much of the Bible too.

It is a mistake to read it literally.

 

[Brian2]

What about Aboriginals 20,000 years ago? Or even 500 years ago?

Why have they not been given a chance?
I don't believe that people have to believe in Jesus to be given eternal life, esp if they have not even heard of Jesus.

 

[Sargonski]

The point in saying "Probability is part of the statistics toolbox to confirm the outcome of research" because that is the only proper way probability is used. For example: The scientist calculated the probability of his research project to determine if his sample size is adequate to justify his conclusions.

No attempt the win a debate without a coherent proposal to debate. Nothing here has been proven here

I have a Masters in Geology. I have three college and graduate-level courses in statistics.

Probability and Statistics

www.math.net

Probability and Statistics​

Probability and statistics are two branches of mathematics concerning the collection, analysis, interpretation, and display of data in the context of random events. They are often studied together due to their interrelationship.

Basic probability terms​

In order to discuss probability, it is important to be familiar with the terminology used. Below are some of the terms commonly used in probability.

• Experiment - a procedure that results in well-defined outcomes. A random experiment is one in which it is not possible to determine which exact outcome will occur.
• Outcome - any possible result contained in a sample space, S.
• Sample space - all possible outcomes of an experiment form a sample space. The sample space for the flip of a fair coin is S = {heads, tails}.
• Event - an event is any subset of a sample space. Given an event, A, when an outcome that belongs to the subset A occurs, an event has occurred. For example, given that event A is the event that a fair six-sided die lands on an even number, the outcomes 2, 4, and 6 all satisfy event A. If any of those values are rolled, event A has occurred. If 1, 3, or 5, are rolled, event A does not occur.
• Trial - Each flip of a coin, roll of a die, or iteration of an experiment is referred to as a trial. In the experiment of flipping a coin to determine the number of heads, each flip of the coin is a trial in the experiment.

You are misusing probability

That is not the only way probability is used .. you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about .. and should be embarassed to have a quazi science degree and to have made such a nonsensical claim .. 3 graduate level courses in Statistics ??? how is it possible for you to speak such nonsense .. and then post a bunch of statistical gibberish --- none of which supports your claim says this Chemist and applied microbiologist with a minor in Math .. Absolute purile nonsense .. on steroids.

Probability is used for many things other than the outcome of "research" gambling being the first thing that comes to mind ..

and now that your have shown your pud pales in comparison to mine .. Sorry Rocks guy but you don't hold a candle to a chemist ... not even close .. never mind the applied microbiology and math.

My 4th year class in Quantum Mechanics -- full of probability distribution .. as the electron you have only a certain probability of finding it in a certain region of space .. known as an orbital.

So .. now that that is out of the way ... WTF are you talking about .. There is ZERO wrong with the claim -- in an infinite amount of time -- all finite probabilities occur. .. all events with a finite probability will not only happen .. but happen an infinite number of times. .. Just as in your coin flipping example sparky .. Flipping a coin once a minute has 50% chance of hitting heads on each flip .. in an infinite amount of time .. heads will hit lot of times .. Does the rocks guy not understand what "Finite Probability" is ? that if there is a 1 in 100 chance of an event happening .. over a finite time period .. that eventually .. over hundreds of time periods .. that event will happen many many times.

Now if you want to call this an experiment that is fine .. but to claim the only use of probability is to determine sample size .. is preposterously false nonsense on steroids.. and regardless of all this ridiculous pretending to have a clue .. in my experiment .. you were told the sample size .. so why are you saying probability is being used improperly .. my experiment meeting even all the ridiculous and false conditions and constraints you put forth.

Embarrassed to have a degree mentioning anything to do with Science .. Scientific method attached to it. That said the Rocks guys -- albeit on the surface do not appear to be "Real Scientists" .. in ways are bigger scientists than the pure applied guys ... but , the claim of Math and Scientifica Aptitude .. hit and miss with the rocks degree .. thats why they went into rocks and not science for the most part .. very smart choice of a degree though .. easy .. and if you are anywhere near oil geologists do very well.

I don't get it - "Finite probability" -- "Infinite time" == did I tell you I did a 4th year quantum mechanics class .. .. you know .. shrodinger wave equations .. Particle in a box problem .. Heisenburg uncertainty principle .. calculated the ground state energy of Hydrogen from first principle .. Lots of probability stuff.

Whats the problem ? "Finite Probability" what is so difficult here .. pick anything 1 in 1000 years .. Event X happens .. .. in an infinite amount of time .. how many times does Event X happen ? Infinity/1000 = what .. how many times will this event happen .. surly your mathematical skills can answer that equation Infinity/1000 = (X) Solve for X ? Now calculate Infinity/1 million Solve for X?

Prove your claim true by coming up with a finite probabilty where the solution X does not Equal infinity ?! and good luck with that .. but at least now the word "Finite" ..as opposed to Infinite in the definition is understood... As infinity/infitity would = 1 .. and your claim would be proven - but such is not allowed.. in this region of space Brother "Da Rock" gonna see what this Chemist got cooking .. show you how to live forever .. the holy Grail mon ... Jah .. Rastafa remember dat .. or in the words of Freddie M .. who wants to live forever.

U understand Rocks man ? who claims to have vast understanding of english language in addition to Math and Science... If event X has a finite probability of occuring in a finite period of time .. then in an infinite period of time .. event x will happen how many times ?

What we callan If/Then Statement .. Logic - Computer Science - all that good stuff .. or "Sove for X" Answer - Infinity - every time - on every plane of reality .. "Except What" ?? ding ding ding .. on what plane of reality is this claim false .. certainly not the one here on Earth .. gravity pulls you to it rather than push you away ..

Now .. is your chance to shine ... Fact - one of the few things you know for sure - unless you believe in the "Life is but a Dream" fairy tale - is that you are composed of matter and energy -- and if you want to get technical .. these are two different forms of the same thing .. and the subatomic level able to transition back and forth .. as per .. Ding ding E=MC2 .. the twin brother of Godwin's law .. "Einsteins Law" .. Har har.

Call it "Stuff" if you wish .. is as good a term as any. One day .. this Stuff .. was arranged into a certain configuration .. that opened up its eyes .. and became aware of its own existence.

Do you understand Rocks Man ?? .. one day the rocks came together .. for who knows what reason .. opened up eyes and became aware of their own collective existence .. Just like your bacteria is aware of their collective existence .. and symbiosis with your electromagnetic wave output ..aka .. thoughts. .. and don't worry if you were thrown for a loop de hoop .. but remember applied microbiological specialist .. at your service .. expert in the ways of lower forms of life .. and their amazing feats .. including your creation .... the builders of the human to a large extent .. but that is another story .. way off the path... to your enlightenment.

A) Goop opened eyes knew of its own existence. What is the probability of event (A) happening again .. in the future ? Smarty pants Rocks man ..with with the big self proclaimed expertice in Math - Science - and the English Language. Put this Lowly Chemist ..in rightful Place

 

[John53]

Why have they not been given a chance?
I don't believe that people have to believe in Jesus to be given eternal life, esp if they have not even heard of Jesus.

I would assume they would have to at least know which God is giving them a chance. I'm open to hearing why my assumption could be wrong.