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Interesting discussion about religion and evolution

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Extremely well said! Thank you!
Yes, there is absolutely no documented historical evidence for Exodus or the Pentateuch as a whole including important figures like Abraham, Noah, and Moses, Hebrew as a written language evolved from more ancient Ugarit, Canaanite, and Phoenician languages. The archaeological evidence is the large Ugarit libraries that contain the source materials for the Pentateuch. The problem I cited is the overwhelming evidence that the Pentateuch was compiled and edited after 600 BCE from more ancient non-Hebrew sources There is room for any evidence of the maximalist position except for 'faith.' Even compromised positions that maintain a historical Abraham, Noah, and Moses have little basis for maintaining their view.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Yes, there is absolutely no documented historical evidence for Exodus or the Pentateuch as a whole including important figures like Abraham, Noah, and Moses, Hebrew as a written language evolved from more ancient Ugarit, Canaanite, and Phoenician languages. The archaeological evidence is the large Ugarit libraries that contain the source materials for the Pentateuch. The problem I cited is the overwhelming evidence that the Pentateuch was compiled and edited after 600 BCE from more ancient non-Hebrew sources There is room for any evidence of the maximalist position except for 'faith.' Even compromised positions that maintain a historical Abraham, Noah, and Moses have little basis for maintaining their view.

I disagree with your interpretation of comparing the Torah with other non-Hebrew sources.

Of COURSE the Hebrew language evolved from older languages (or visa-versa - I wasn't there).

Where did Abraham come from? Where did he live during his life? I don't see the relevance.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I disagree with your interpretation of comparing the Torah with other non-Hebrew sources.

Disagree as you may, but no Hebrew sources are found before 600 BCE. It is not my opinion it is based on actual real archaeological and linguistic evidence.
Of COURSE the Hebrew language evolved from older languages (or visa-versa - I wasn't there).

You were not there, but the evidence as cited is. Fundamentally there is nothing significant in Hebrew before 600 BCE except for a few primitive transitional pieces of writing on pottery. The silver Ketef Hinnom scrolls are dated 600 BCE

"Where did Abraham come from? Where did he live during his life? I don't see the relevance."

Good question, because there is absolutely no records of Abraham before 600 BCE.
 
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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Disagree as you may, but no Hebrew sources are found before 600 BCE

And????

Good question, because there is absolutely no records of Abraham before 600 BCE.

Hmmmm... really? This is the basis for your position? The absence of archaeological means that it didn't exist? That is what they did with King David.... until.... they found evidence?

Were you looking for a "library of the Torah" for the time period you are wanting?

I suppose you wanted Abraham to carry it around with him so that he would satisfy your curiosity?

Shunyadragon - let's be a little more logical here.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
And????



Hmmmm... really? This is the basis for your position? The absence of archaeological means that it didn't exist? That is what they did with King David.... until.... they found evidence?

The evidence for King David is marginal at best and does not confirm the Pentateuch record. Arguing from ignorance' gets you a free cup of coffee at McDonalds if you are over 55.
Were you looking for a "library of the Torah" for the time period you are wanting?

You're delusional. I go by the evidence. There is no such thing as a Hebrew library at the time by the evidence. There is documented archaeological evidence for the Ugarit libraries.
I suppose you wanted Abraham to carry it around with him so that he would satisfy your curiosity?

Shunyadragon - let's be a little more logical here.

I am very logical and go by the evidence. You have a problem being delusional with believing in ancient tribal scripture as factual that is not known to have existed before 600 BCE.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
The evidence for King David is marginal at best and does not confirm the Pentateuch record. Arguing from ignorance' gets you a free cup of coffee at McDonalds if you are over 55.

Nice two step. Avoiding the point doesn't give you a point. The point was that at one time "there was no evidence" - archaeology is slow and not readily available. Absence of evidence doesn't translate that it never happened.

You're delusional. I go by the evidence. There is no such thing as a Hebrew library at the time by the evidence.
Please review above

There is documented archaeological evidence for the Ugarit libraries.

Great...

I am very logical and go by the evidence. You have a problem being delusional with believing in ancient tribal scripture as factual that is not known to have existed before 600 BCE.
You seem to be delusional in believing that absence of evidence that are thousands of years old is translated into not being true. Very illogical.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
That indicates that they were written later than that. The language used too is a clue as to when they were written.
Hmmmm... really? This is the basis for your position? The absence of archaeological means that it didn't exist? That is what they did with King David.... until.... they found evidence?

Were you looking for a "library of the Torah" for the time period you are wanting?

I suppose you wanted Abraham to carry it around with him so that he would satisfy your curiosity?

Shunyadragon - let's be a little more logical here.
As I pointed out there is more than just not finding the Torah older than that. There are
Nice two step. Avoiding the point doesn't give you a point. The point was that at one time "there was no evidence" - archaeology is slow and not readily available. Absence of evidence doesn't translate that it never happened.


Please review above



Great...


You seem to be delusional in believing that absence of evidence that are thousands of years old is translated into not being true. Very illogical.
Absence of evidence can be evidence of absence. Almost everyone gets that wrong. If one would expect the evidence that is missing that can be evidence of absence. For example the Noah's Ark story predicts massive evidence for it if it happened and all that we can find is evidence that it did not. The absence of evidence for it is clear evidence against it.

Now should highly cherished religious beliefs that were written down have been preserved over the centuries. I would say yes. We do have examples of far older religious beliefs that were preserved in writing elsewhere yet a group that supposedly consists of God's chosen people cannot keep records, even though their own stories claim that they were. Frankly it does not look good for the Bible.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Nice two step. Avoiding the point doesn't give you a point. The point was that at one time "there was no evidence" - archaeology is slow and not readily available. Absence of evidence doesn't translate that it never happened.

Yes, there was a King David. What I claim and still stand is there is absolutely no record of Abraham Noah and Moses and no Hebrew writing or library before 600 BCE.
Please review above



Great...


You seem to be delusional in believing that absence of evidence that are thousands of years old is translated into not being true. Very illogical.
No delusions at all. I go by the evidence. It is not entirely just an absence of evidence. It is well-documented that the Pentateuch was compiled and edited after 600 BCE and the Hebrew written language did not exist before.

The Creation 1 and 2 stories of Genesis are compiled and written by different individuals.

Noah's Ark and the flood are literally impossible events as described adopted from more ancient stories of the Tigris Euphrates flood not involving Hebrews.

I do not consider them translated into being true.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
This source gives a lot of details on the literary origin of the Pentateuch beginning a little earlier in the North to the 7th century BCE where the Ugarit libraries are found. This is a little long Inope itt posts. It details the times the Pentateuch was compiled.


Ajrud (for the latter see recently Ahituv, Eshel, and Meshel 2012). Therefore the early phase of the Iron IIB in the first half of the eighth century seems to be the earliest possible period in which we might expect to see the compilation of those northern literary texts that found their way into the Pentateuch and other biblical works. In Judah, the main expansion of scribal activity and literacy occurred in the seventh century BCE Most corpora of ostraca—Arad, Lachish, Uza, Malhata, Kadesh-rnea—belong to this period (see e.g. Ahituv 2008; for details see Finkelstein 2020). Most significantly, the spread of literacy is also attested in the proliferation of seals, seal impressions, and bullae. It is noteworthy that the many bullae from the area of the Gihon Spring in Jerusalem, dated slightly earlier, to c .800 BCE, are not inscribed (Reich, Shukron and Lernau 2007). The seventh century BCE
is, therefore, the moment when Judah becomes a “writing society,” beyond the Jerusalemite circles of temple and palace. This was probably an outcome of the century (c .730–630 BCE) when Judah was dominated by Assyria and was incorporated into the sphere of Assyrian administration, global economy, and culture. New evidence for the scope of literacy in the closing years of the Iron Age has emerged from interdisciplinary research on digital methods for comparing handwriting in ostraca. York on sixteen Arad inscriptions has revealed a minimum of six authors (Faigenbaum-Golovin et al.
2016; more according to Shaus et al. 2020). The contents of the examined ostraca reveal that literacy had spread to the smallest forts in the Beer-Sheba Valley and all the way down the bureaucratic ladder to the second-in-command in the Arad storehouse. This kind of proliferation of scribal activity is unattested in the Babylonian and Persian periods when the southern highlands show almost no evidence of Hebrew inscriptions. In fact, beyond the possibility that the Ketef Hinnom silver plates ate from after 586 BCE (Na’aman 2011a), the only (meager) evidence comes from the few Yehud coins, which date to the fourth century BCE, and coins can hardly attest to genuine scribal activity.This means that (again, apart possibly from etef Hinnom) not a single inscription hasbeen found for the period between 586 and c 350 BCE; not an ostracon, not a seal, not a seal impression, not a bulla. This does not mean that the (p. 407)
knowledge of writing Hebrew disappeared, but the scribal activity must have declined—and significantly.

This should come as no surprise: the destruction of Judah brought about the collapse of the kingdom’s bureaucracy and the deportation of many of the educated intelligentsia, the literati. The reduced population in the remaining villages (see above) was hardly capable of producing a massive number of literary works. Of course, there must have been some continuity in the production of literary works in Yehud and early Judea; one can imagine, for instance, a secluded educated priestly group near the temple. Even so, however, activity on the Temple Mount appears to have remained limited, and one wonders why writing did not trickle into daily life (ostraca, bullae, etc.). As of today, then, the archaeological evidence seems to challenge the tendency to place the compilation of much biblical material in Yehud-Judea of the Persian and early Hellenistic periods. It seems to me safer to take a different, twofold approach: first, to try to date as much material as possible to periods in Judah/Judea that evince widespread scribal activity and literacy in all media and all forms of inscriptions—that is, the latest phase of the Iron Age and the Late Hellenistic period after c 200 BCE. The latter date raises a question: is it possible that material was added to the Pentateuch as late as the second century BCE? The answer seems to be positive for minor revisions (Finkelstein andRömer 2014a) but negative for major literary works. Second, for the Babylonian and Persian periods, it is advisable to place the compilation of as much material as possible in Babylonia (see e.g. Albertz 2003).

Bethel
The archaeology of Bethel is of considerable significance for the discussion here, because
some scholars see it as the place where many of the northern biblical texts were originally authored (e.g. Knauf 2006; Davies 2007). A study of the findings retrieved from this site(Finkelstein and Singer-Avitz 2009) indicated that the settlement history of Bethel was not continuous, as maintained by the excavators. Rather, it was characterized by settlement oscillations, with three phases of strong activity (in the Iron I, Iron IIB, and Hellenistic periods); two periods of decline (in the late Iron IIA and the Iron IIC); and two periods of probable abandonment (in the early Iron IIA and—most significantly—in the Babylonian and Persian periods). This evidence cannot be brushed aside as stemming from excavations of limited scope, as significant sectors of the small mound—larger than may appear at first glance—were excavated. These data are of crucial importance. They seem to reject the possibility of the transmission of northern texts to Yehud after 586. They strengthen the likelihood that the northern literary works were brought to Judah after 720 BCE, and that the intermingling of northern and southern texts in Jerusalem could have taken place as early as the seventh century BCE, as part of an effort to construct an identity for the mixed population of a “United” Judahite–Israelite monarchy within Judah.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Yes, there was a King David. What I claim and still stand is there is absolutely no record of Abraham Noah and Moses and no Hebrew writing or library before 600 BCE.

Yes... the oldest copied version of the Torah is dated around 600 BCE...

I'm not quite sure why this is such a big issue for you. Obviously time destroys older version through natural composition. We also know that copying was done meticulously to preserve the original writings.

But when what is written says,
Exodus 17:14
And the Lord said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.

Why would we think that the word "write" didn't mean "write"?

Why the aversion that it might just be what it says?

No delusions at all. I go by the evidence. It is not entirely just an absence of evidence. It is well-documented that the Pentateuch was compiled and edited after 600 BCE and the Hebrew written language did not exist before.

The Creation 1 and 2 stories of Genesis are compiled and written by different individuals.

Is this really "evidence" or "personal viewpoints by scholars"?
Noah's Ark and the flood are literally impossible events as described adopted from more ancient stories of the Tigris Euphrates flood not involving Hebrews.

I do not consider them translated into being true.

Which I am fine with. I think the word "impossible" is correct if we try to view things in today's application by what we see. I find it plausible if what was back then wasn't as we see it now.

For an example, the plates tectonic are separating continental bodies. We assume it is at a constant rate... but was it at a constant rate? If we reverse time, do the continents come back together?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Yes... the oldest copied version of the Torah is dated around 600 BCE...

I'm not quite sure why this is such a big issue for you. Obviously time destroys older version through natural composition. We also know that copying was done meticulously to preserve the original writings.
The known text clearly documents the Hebrew written language did not exist before 700-600 BCE. Not known that it may have been a copied version before this except for the Ugarit, Sumerian, Babylonian Phoenician, and Canaanite writings. It is well documented that the Hebrew written language evolved later than the above.
But when what is written says,
Exodus 17:14
And the Lord said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.

Yes that is what is in the Pentateuch compiled and edited after 700-600 BCE from different sources including the traditions of the Northern Hebrews and Southern Judah.
Why would we think that the word "write" didn't mean "write"?

Actually, the first source is handed down oral traditions like in all primitive cultures.
Why the aversion that it might just be what it says?

"Might be" does not qualify as evidence.
Is this really "evidence" or "personal viewpoints by scholars"?

Really evidence! It is based on specific and documented archaeological evidence from many sources,
Which I am fine with. I think the word "impossible" is correct if we try to view things in today's application by what we see. I find it plausible if what was back then wasn't as we see it now.

Not plausible as far as Noah's Ark and the flood.
For an example, the plates tectonic are separating continental bodies. We assume it is at a constant rate... but was it at a constant rate? If we reverse time, do the continents come back together?

The rate of continental drift is a measured uniform rate based on depositional rings in the ocean floor rock which is the same rate for millions of years.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
No prior records of Exodus or the Pentateuch prior to 600-500 BCE and no Egyptian records to support the exodus to the event described in Exodus.

You seem to be a Biblical Minimalist. Why is it that with minimalists the record of the Bible is seen as untrue until proven by other sources to be true, but other ancient records are not treated the same as the Bible in that respect?

No concerned the reference I provided.

The reference you provided has not got much about archaeology in it, as I said before.

No it is evidence of the destruction of Jericho and not the invasion.

How is the destruction of Jericho in the manner that the Bible describes (walls collapsing and it being burned) and at the date that the Bible tells us, not evidence that the Biblical record is true? This would be even greater evidence for the conquest if the archaeology finds the other cities burned and destroyed which are mentioned in the conquest account as cities that were burned and destroyed.


The concept of 'Truth' is based on faith and belief, not the evidence, and archaeological evidence is required and it is lacking for not only Exodus but the entire Pentateuch including no evidence for the existence of Abraham.

That the existence of Abraham has no archaeological evidence means nothing really in relation to the truth. It could be considered surprising imo if Abraham, as a nomadic pastoralist, even a wealthy one, would be recorded in the records of Canaan etc of the day. So the lack of evidence for Abraham is nothing important.
The Biblical account however does show an accurate depiction of the times.
There should be no serious judgement by archaeologists or historians that Abraham did not exist.
I imagine that as a Baha'i you would accept the existence of Abraham, Noah, Moses and Adam since Baha'u'llah did, not depending on archaeological evidence. Baha'u'llah is supposed to have descended from David.
 
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Brian2

Veteran Member
Yes, there is absolutely no documented historical evidence for Exodus or the Pentateuch as a whole including important figures like Abraham, Noah, and Moses, Hebrew as a written language evolved from more ancient Ugarit, Canaanite, and Phoenician languages. The archaeological evidence is the large Ugarit libraries that contain the source materials for the Pentateuch. The problem I cited is the overwhelming evidence that the Pentateuch was compiled and edited after 600 BCE from more ancient non-Hebrew sources There is room for any evidence of the maximalist position except for 'faith.' Even compromised positions that maintain a historical Abraham, Noah, and Moses have little basis for maintaining their view.

There is evidence of paleo Hebrew before the later Hebrew writing style developed. The earliest known inscription is from the 10th century BC.
This developed from the earlier proto Canaanite script.
Israel was a nation and there would have been plenty of writing around in the Government and Temple of the 10th century.
Certainly the Bible record tells us that plenty of writing existed before this time also.
It seems to be a minimalist presumption to justify their position, that there was no writing in Israel till about 600BC and cannot be justified archaeologically.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
You seem to be a Biblical Minimalist. Why is it that with minimalists the record of the Bible is seen as untrue until proven by other sources to be true, but other ancient records are not treated the same as the Bible in that respect?

I do not consider other ancient records under any different standards. I like most historians and academics consider all religious texts on a factual basis, and not what those who 'believe' is true based on their religious text. If there are claims in the text that cannot be confirmed objectively they are considered as believed by the followers.

Believers often confuse what historians do not consider as factually based on evidence, ie the Resurrection, or the existence of Noah or Moses as being not true. In reality, historians consider them as not confirmed historically based on evidence outside the text, and not true or false.

The reference you provided has not got much about archaeology in it, as I said before.

The references I provided are indeed based on archaeology, ie the known text that has been found to exist at a given time. Also the evolution of language is based on the actual text found in archaeological sites such as the Ugarit libraries, and the Babylonian and Sumerian Cuneiform tablets. Also, tablets like Tel Dan which confirmed the existence of David as the ruler of Judah, were carved by the army that defeated King David and not Hebrews.
How is the destruction of Jericho in the manner that the Bible describes (walls collapsing and it being burned) and at the date that the Bible tells us, not evidence that the Biblical record is true? This would be even greater evidence for the conquest if the archaeology finds the other cities burned and destroyed which are mentioned in the conquest account as cities that were burned and destroyed.

The history of Jericho is more complex and seized more than once. It is acknowledged that Jericho was taken by siege, but who? There is no evidence of the numbers claimed by Exodus that left Egypt or the existence of Moses. There is no evidence that the walls collapsed.
Yes, there are problems that a large army came out of Egypt and captured Jericho.

That the existence of Abraham has no archaeological evidence means nothing really in relation to the truth. It could be considered surprising imo if Abraham, as a nomadic pastoralist, even a wealthy one, would be recorded in the records of Canaan etc of the day. So the lack of evidence for Abraham is nothing important.
The Biblical account however does show an accurate depiction of the times.
There should be no serious judgement by archaeologists or historians that Abraham did not exist.
I imagine that as a Baha'i you would accept the existence of Abraham, Noah, Moses and Adam since Baha'u'llah did, not depending on archaeological evidence.

This is a religious belief and yes it remains unconfirmed or documented by archaeology. I do not necessarily expect that ALL my beliefs will be confirmed by archaeology. or historical records. Remember the role of Academic history is NOT to necessarily confirm religious beliefs.

I have been able to separate academic history and science in terms of what can be factually confirmed from religious beliefs which may not be confirmed. Also, academic history and science cannot confirm the existence of God or miracles.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
There is evidence of paleo Hebrew before the later Hebrew writing style developed. The earliest known inscription is from the 10th century BC.
These finds only represent scrapes of primitive Canaanite/Hebrew texts and nothing that would indicate complex writing for religious or government text.
This developed from the earlier proto Canaanite script.
Yes, it helps to document the later evolution of Hebrew text,
Israel was a nation and there would have been plenty of writing around in the Government and Temple of the 10th century.

Claim without evidence. The current evidence indicates that the Hebrews were a pastoral tribe in the hills of Judah. Actually, ancient peoples before writing had various forms of temples and tribal government structures.

Jericho has been a continuously inhabited city for over 10,000 years.

There are other ancient cities I can find references for.
Certainly the Bible record tells us that plenty of writing existed before this time also.
No evidence for this. The Pentateuch was compiled, edited, and redacted between 700 and 200 BCE
It seems to be a minimalist presumption to justify their position, that there was no writing in Israel till about 600BC and cannot be justified archaeologically.

It seems to me . . . not a valid argument. The history of writing in the Middle East and around the world is extremely well documented archaeologically.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
These finds only represent scrapes of primitive Canaanite/Hebrew texts and nothing that would indicate complex writing for religious or government text.

Yes, it helps to document the later evolution of Hebrew text,


Claim without evidence. The current evidence indicates that the Hebrews were a pastoral tribe in the hills of Judah. Actually, ancient peoples before writing had various forms of temples and tribal government structures.

Jericho has been a continuously inhabited city for over 10,000 years.

There are other ancient cities I can find references for.

No evidence for this. The Pentateuch was compiled, edited, and redacted between 700 and 200 BCE


It seems to me . . . not a valid argument. The history of writing in the Middle East and around the world is extremely well documented archaeologically.
And from what I have seen the date of 700 BCE is very generous. As you have pointed out the works came into their present day form mostly (for the Torah at least) in 539 - 333 BCE.

 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
And from what I have seen the date of 700 BCE is very generous. As you have pointed out the works came into their present day form mostly (for the Torah at least) in 539 - 333 BCE.


I cited a reference that indicated the Hebrews in the North may have begun the compilation a little early, They likely had access to the Ugarit libraries. Also, some of the compilation possibly took place in Babylonia. Your estimate is the most accepted including editing and additions as late as 200 BCE.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Claim without evidence. The current evidence indicates that the Hebrews were a pastoral tribe in the hills of Judah. Actually, ancient peoples before writing had various forms of temples and tribal government structures.

It is strange that the Bible as an ancient text from various parts of the BC era, is dismissed as evidence for complex religious writing in the time of the Kings and associated prophets.

No evidence for this. The Pentateuch was compiled, edited, and redacted between 700 and 200 BCE

Possibly. That sometimes means that the Pentateuch was made up then. That however is just opinion of people who dismiss the archaeology of the conquest and what is recorded in the Bible itself.
The Bible record itself does however give reasons for why the archaeological record of Canaan is the way it is. There is no reason to make up other reasons.

It seems to me . . . not a valid argument. The history of writing in the Middle East and around the world is extremely well documented archaeologically.

The history of Moses being raised in a royal court and so knowing writing is there also.
The history of Moses being told by God to write certain things is there also.
It is all part of the history of writing in the Middle East.
Then modern historians come along and say "Ahh, we know better".
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
I do not consider other ancient records under any different standards. I like most historians and academics consider all religious texts on a factual basis, and not what those who 'believe' is true based on their religious text. If there are claims in the text that cannot be confirmed objectively they are considered as believed by the followers.

Believers often confuse what historians do not consider as factually based on evidence, ie the Resurrection, or the existence of Noah or Moses as being not true. In reality, historians consider them as not confirmed historically based on evidence outside the text, and not true or false.

Possibly but the history books are not written that way. The history books are written as if the historians know what happened and what they are saying is actually the true account and the Bible record is not true.

The references I provided are indeed based on archaeology, ie the known text that has been found to exist at a given time. Also the evolution of language is based on the actual text found in archaeological sites such as the Ugarit libraries, and the Babylonian and Sumerian Cuneiform tablets. Also, tablets like Tel Dan which confirmed the existence of David as the ruler of Judah.

Maybe we are talking about different references.

The history of Jericho is more complex and seized more than once. It is acknowledged that Jericho was taken by siege, but who? There is no evidence of the numbers claimed by Exodus that left Egypt or the existence of Moses. There is no evidence that the walls collapsed.

Of course there is evidence of the collapsed walls of Jericho. Which archaeology are you reading?

The numbers in the Exodus story may be smaller than usually translated but that is no big deal imo.
There are possible evidences for Joseph and the Hebrews in Egypt and for Moses.
But even if there was none, that does not give the historians the right to claim that it did not happen.

Yes, there are problems that a large army came out of Egypt and captured Jericho.

When was that meant to have happened?

This is a religious belief and yes it remains unconfirmed or documented by archaeology. I do not necessarily expect that ALL my beliefs will be confirmed by archaeology. or historical records. Remember the role of Academic history is NOT to necessarily confirm religious beliefs.

I have been able to separate academic history and science in terms of what can be factually confirmed from religious beliefs which may not be confirmed. Also, academic history and science cannot confirm the existence of God or miracles.

It's nice to be able to separate what can be confirmed and what cannot, but that does not mean that academic history and science can make up their own version of events and tell everyone that the Bible is BS and did not happen,,,,,,,,,,,,,, just because confirming evidence has not been found yet.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
"Where did Abraham come from? Where did he live during his life? I don't see the relevance."

31 And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son's son, and Sarai his daughter in law, his son Abram's wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there.

32 And the days of Terah were two hundred and five years: and Terah died in Haran.

 
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