Interesting discussion about religion and evolution

[Brian2]

You are still ignoring the fact that moses didn’t write the Genesis, Exodus & other books. There are no evidence that any of these books existing in the 15th century BCE, which is early 18th dynasty. You will only find appearances of these texts from 6th century BCE or later.

I don't think many writings survived unless written on stone or clay.
Egypt had a thriving culture with many things written and a lot of literature around compared especially with Israel who had nothing like that until the time of the Kings probably.

But there are contemporary texts to Egyptian kings, such as Ahmose I & Thutmose III, such as stone stelae. None of them mentioned Moses or the Israelites being slaves in Egypt.

It is not known definitely who the contemporary Egyptian Kings were. Dynasties changed, and even the Hyksos were governing for a time.
Egypt seems to have been renouned for destroying the real history if it was not liked or showed Egypt in a bad light or conquered etc.
Was Israel even known as Israel at that time?
Israel is mentioned as a political force in Canaan on the Merneptah Stele. 1205BC according to the current chronology. So if they were in Egypt the Conquest was a long time before 1205BC.

And Exodus 1 & 2 saying a king was built Rameses (Pi-Ramesses) during the 18th dynasty (15th century BCE), but the reality it is didn’t exist until the 19th dynasty (13th century BCE), is another indicator that the author of Exodus don’t know the real history of Egypt during that time.

That could easily be the result of later redactions so that people in later centuries would know which area and city was being spoken about. That sort of thing was common.

That’s how anyone with common sense know that Moses didn’t exist in the 18th dynasty. Nothing Exodus says match up with the actual timeline in Egypt.

That is what anyone without faith and who believes what the modern historians say, would think.
But as I have pointed out, a bit of common sense can point in other directions if someone has faith in God's Word.
There is a lot of discussion about when and if the Exodus happened and when and if the Conquest happened and if Israel can be found in Egypt and what the true chronology of Egypt is etc. There is more to it than common sense. It is a matter of which was we lean in our beliefs.

 

[viole]

Humans have a different perspective about death from turtles, gorillas, ants and the like. We know we face death. So far I have not heard from a gorilla or parakeet that they wonder about death, have you? Only humans do.

That is probably why only humans made up an afterlife. As far as I know.

ciao

- viole

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes. That is correct. Now why the bold one?

Does a gene or a collection of genes in an organism have a mind? What say you and I daresay you reflect modern scientific thinking on this.

 

[YoursTrue]

That is probably why only humans made up an afterlife. As far as I know.

ciao

- viole

Could be, because Eve wanted to know what God knows, maybe more. God never said to Adam that he would suffer after death. Adam knew he would not suffer based on what he saw around him--animals dying, not coming back from the 'dead' to speak to him. God never told Adam he would live on after death.

 

[viole]

Could be, because Eve wanted to know what God knows, maybe more. God never said to Adam that he would suffer after death. Adam knew he would not suffer based on what he saw around him--animals dying, not coming back from the 'dead' to speak to him. God never told Adam he would live on after death.

Do you believe in a literal Adam and Eve?

Ciao

- viole

 

[shunyadragon]

Does a gene or a collection of genes in an organism have a mind? What say you and I daresay you reflect modern scientific thinking on this.

Organisms with a complex nervous system have a mind like the Octopus.

 

[shunyadragon]

I don't think many writings survived unless written on stone or clay.

Egyptian writings survive on papyrus as old as 4000 BCE

Egypt had a thriving culture with many things written and a lot of literature around compared especially with Israel who had nothing like that until the time of the Kings probably.

The writings of the Pentateuch are not known until after the return from exile,

It is not known definitely who the contemporary Egyptian Kings were. Dynasties changed, and even the Hyksos were governing for a time.
Egypt seems to have been renowned for destroying the real history if it was not liked or showed Egypt in a bad light or conquered etc.
Was Israel even known as Israel at that time?

Archaeology has determined the Hebrews existed as one or more pastoral tribes.

Israel is mentioned as a political force in Canaan on the Merneptah Stele. 1205BC according to the current chronology. So if they were in Egypt the Conquest was a long time before 1205BC.

The Merneptah Stele did not describe Israel(?) as a political force at that time. Yes, the Hebrews existed as a pastoral tribe in the Hills of Judah at the time, but not a political force.

That is what anyone without faith and who believes what the modern historians say, would think.
But as I have pointed out, a bit of common sense can point in other directions if someone has faith in God's Word.
There is a lot of discussion about when and if the Exodus happened and when and if the Conquest happened and if Israel can be found in Egypt and what the true chronology of Egypt is etc. There is more to it than common sense. It is a matter of which was we lean in our beliefs.

Modern historians base their work on archaeological evidence and actual records available at the time. There is very little or not much evidence of Exodus documented in Egyptian records. Some sort of small-scale migration is likely, but not 40 years of wandering or conquest of Canaan

 

[Brian2]

Egyptian writings survive on papyrus as old as 4000 BCE


The writings of the Pentateuch are not known until after the return from exile,


Archaeology has determined the Hebrews existed as one or more pastoral tribes.



The Merneptah Stele did not describe Israel(?) as a political force at that time. Yes, the Hebrews existed as a pastoral tribe in the Hills of Judah at the time, but not a political force.

Modern historians base their work on archaeological evidence and actual records available at the time. There is very little or not much evidence of Exodus documented in Egyptian records. Some sort of small-scale migration is likely, but not 40 years of wandering or conquest of Canaan

The archaeological conquest evidence has to do with the date that one places the Exodus. 1450BC gives a good match imo and 1450BC is the Biblical timing for the Exodus.

 

[shunyadragon]

The archaeological conquest evidence has to do with the date that one places the Exodus. 1450BC gives a good match imo and 1450BC is the Biblical timing for the Exodus.

Dating has a possible range based on the archaeological evidence, and your date is okay, but that is not the real problem with the Exodus account. There was likely a much smaller migration of Jews and others around this date.

The Exodus - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Origins and historicity​

See also: Sources and parallels of the Exodus and Historicity of the Bible
There are two main positions on the historicity of the Exodus in modern scholarship.[1] The majority position is that the biblical Exodus narrative has some historical basis, although there is little of historical worth in it.[6][4][11] The other position, often associated with the school of Biblical minimalism,[24][25] is that the biblical exodus traditions are the invention of the exilic and post-exilic Jewish community, with little to no historical basis.[26]

The biblical Exodus narrative is best understood as a founding myth of the Jewish people, providing an ideological foundation for their culture and institutions, not an accurate depiction of the history of the Israelites.[27][11] The view that the biblical narrative is essentially correct unless it can explicitly be proved wrong (Biblical maximalism) is today held by "few, if any [...] in mainstream scholarship, only on the more fundamentalist fringes."[1] There is no direct evidence for any of the people or Exodus events in non-biblical ancient texts or in archaeological remains, and this has led most scholars to omit the Exodus events from the comprehensive histories of Israel.[28]

Reliability of the biblical account​

Most mainstream scholars do not accept the biblical Exodus account as history for a number of reasons. Most scholars agree that the Exodus stories were written centuries after the apparent setting of the stories.[3] The Book of Exodus itself attempts to ground the event firmly in history, dating the exodus to the 2666th year after creation (Exodus 12:40-41), the construction of the tabernacle to year 2667 (Exodus 40:1-2, 17), stating that the Israelites dwelled in Egypt for 430 years (Exodus 12:40-41), and including place names such as Goshen (Gen. 46:28), Pithom, and Ramesses (Exod. 1:11), as well as stating that 600,000 Israelite men were involved (Exodus 12:37).[29]

The Book of Numbers further states that the number of Israelite males aged 20 years and older in the desert during the wandering were 603,550, including 22,273 first-borns, which modern estimates put at 2.5-3 million total Israelites, a number that could not be supported by the Sinai Desert through natural means.[30] The geography is vague with regions such as Goshen unidentified,[e] and there are internal problems with dating in the Pentateuch.[14] No modern attempt to identify an historical Egyptian prototype for Moses has found wide acceptance, and no period in Egyptian history matches the biblical accounts of the Exodus.[32] Some elements of the story are miraculous and defy rational explanation, such as the Plagues of Egypt and the Crossing of the Red Sea.[33] The Bible did not mention the names of any of the pharaohs involved in the Exodus narrative, making it difficult for modern scholars to match Egyptian history and the biblical narrative.[34]

While ancient Egyptian texts from the New Kingdom mention "Asiatics" living in Egypt as slaves and workers, these people cannot be securely connected to the Israelites, and no contemporary Egyptian text mentions a large-scale exodus of slaves like that described in the Bible.[35] The earliest surviving historical mention of the Israelites, the Egyptian Merneptah Stele (c. 1207 BCE), appears to place them in or around Canaan and gives no indication of any exodus.[36] Archaeologist Israel Finkelstein argues from his analysis of the itinerary lists in the books of Exodus, Numbers and Deuteronomy that the biblical account represents a long-term cultural memory, spanning the 16th to 10th centuries BCE, rather than a specific event: "The beginning is vague and now untraceable."[37] Instead, modern archaeology suggests continuity between Canaanite and Israelite settlement, indicating a primarily Canaanite origin for Israel, with no suggestion that a group of foreigners from Egypt comprised early Israel.

Next post the possible historical basis for a possible event the exodus is based on.

 

[shunyadragon]

The Exodus - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Potential historical origins​

Ramesses II, one of several suggested pharaohs in the Exodus narrative
Despite the absence of any archaeological evidence, most scholars nonetheless hold the view that the Exodus probably has some sort of historical basis,[4][6] with Kenton Sparks referring to it as "mythologized history".[11] Scholars posit that a small group of people of Egyptian origin may have joined the early Israelites, and then contributed their own Egyptian Exodus story to all of Israel.[f] William G. Dever cautiously identifies this group with the Tribe of Joseph, while Richard Elliott Friedman identifies it with the Tribe of Levi.[40][41]

Most scholars who accept a historical core of the exodus date this possible exodus group to the thirteenth century BCE at the time of Ramses II, with some instead dating it to the twelfth century BCE at the time of Ramses III.[4] Evidence in favor of historical traditions forming a background to the Exodus myth include the documented movements of small groups of Ancient Semitic-speaking peoples into and out of Egypt during the Eighteenth and Nineteenth Dynasties, some elements of Egyptian folklore and culture in the Exodus narrative,[42] and the names Moses, Aaron and Phinehas, which seem to have an Egyptian origin.[43] Scholarly estimates for how many people could have been involved in such an exodus range from a few hundred to a few thousand people.[4]

Joel S. Baden[44] noted the presence of Semitic-speaking slaves in Egypt who sometimes escaped in small numbers as potential inspirations for the Exodus.[45] It is also possible that oppressive Egyptian rule of Canaan during the late second millennium BCE may have aided the adoption of the story of a small group of Egyptian refugees by the native Canaanites among the Israelites.[46] The expulsion of the Hyksos, a Semitic group that had conquered much of Egypt, by the Seventeenth Dynasty of Egypt is also frequently discussed as a potential historical parallel or origin for the story.[46][47][48] Alternatively, Nadav Na'aman argued that oppressive Egyptian rule of Canaan during the Nineteenth and especially the Twentieth Dynasty may have inspired the Exodus narrative, forming a "collective memory" of Egyptian oppression that was transferred from Canaan to Egypt itself in the popular consciousness.[49]

Many other scholars reject this view, and instead see the biblical exodus traditions as the invention of the exilic and post-exilic Jewish community, with little to no historical basis.[26] Lester Grabbe, for instance, argued that "[t]here is no compelling reason that the exodus has to be rooted in history",[50] and that the details of the story more closely fit the seventh through the fifth centuries BCE than the traditional dating to the second millennium BCE.[51] Philip R. Davies suggested that the story may have been inspired by the return to Israel of Israelites and Judaeans who were placed in Egypt as garrison troops by the Assyrians in the fifth and sixth centuries BCE.[52]

 

[YoursTrue]

That is probably why only humans made up an afterlife. As far as I know.

ciao

- viole

Porcupines haven't told you anything about this yet, have they? After life, btw, is death. Life is life and death is death.

 

[shunyadragon]

Porcupines haven't told you anything about this yet, have they? After life, btw, is death. Life is life and death is death.

At least the porcupines get the point.

 

[YoursTrue]

At least the porcupines get the point.

unless you're of a religion that claims they transfer into something else -- ok, squirrels maybe -- Life is life and death is death, it's not life. After life is -- zilch. Except for God, who is greater than lava and magma and silt and sediment. Have a good one!

 

[Brian2]

Dating has a possible range based on the archaeological evidence, and your date is okay, but that is not the real problem with the Exodus account. There was likely a much smaller migration of Jews and others around this date.

The Exodus - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Origins and historicity​

See also: Sources and parallels of the Exodus and Historicity of the Bible
There are two main positions on the historicity of the Exodus in modern scholarship.[1] The majority position is that the biblical Exodus narrative has some historical basis, although there is little of historical worth in it.[6][4][11] The other position, often associated with the school of Biblical minimalism,[24][25] is that the biblical exodus traditions are the invention of the exilic and post-exilic Jewish community, with little to no historical basis.[26]

The biblical Exodus narrative is best understood as a founding myth of the Jewish people, providing an ideological foundation for their culture and institutions, not an accurate depiction of the history of the Israelites.[27][11] The view that the biblical narrative is essentially correct unless it can explicitly be proved wrong (Biblical maximalism) is today held by "few, if any [...] in mainstream scholarship, only on the more fundamentalist fringes."[1] There is no direct evidence for any of the people or Exodus events in non-biblical ancient texts or in archaeological remains, and this has led most scholars to omit the Exodus events from the comprehensive histories of Israel.[28]

Reliability of the biblical account​

Most mainstream scholars do not accept the biblical Exodus account as history for a number of reasons. Most scholars agree that the Exodus stories were written centuries after the apparent setting of the stories.[3] The Book of Exodus itself attempts to ground the event firmly in history, dating the exodus to the 2666th year after creation (Exodus 12:40-41), the construction of the tabernacle to year 2667 (Exodus 40:1-2, 17), stating that the Israelites dwelled in Egypt for 430 years (Exodus 12:40-41), and including place names such as Goshen (Gen. 46:28), Pithom, and Ramesses (Exod. 1:11), as well as stating that 600,000 Israelite men were involved (Exodus 12:37).[29]

The Book of Numbers further states that the number of Israelite males aged 20 years and older in the desert during the wandering were 603,550, including 22,273 first-borns, which modern estimates put at 2.5-3 million total Israelites, a number that could not be supported by the Sinai Desert through natural means.[30] The geography is vague with regions such as Goshen unidentified,[e] and there are internal problems with dating in the Pentateuch.[14] No modern attempt to identify an historical Egyptian prototype for Moses has found wide acceptance, and no period in Egyptian history matches the biblical accounts of the Exodus.[32] Some elements of the story are miraculous and defy rational explanation, such as the Plagues of Egypt and the Crossing of the Red Sea.[33] The Bible did not mention the names of any of the pharaohs involved in the Exodus narrative, making it difficult for modern scholars to match Egyptian history and the biblical narrative.[34]

While ancient Egyptian texts from the New Kingdom mention "Asiatics" living in Egypt as slaves and workers, these people cannot be securely connected to the Israelites, and no contemporary Egyptian text mentions a large-scale exodus of slaves like that described in the Bible.[35] The earliest surviving historical mention of the Israelites, the Egyptian Merneptah Stele (c. 1207 BCE), appears to place them in or around Canaan and gives no indication of any exodus.[36] Archaeologist Israel Finkelstein argues from his analysis of the itinerary lists in the books of Exodus, Numbers and Deuteronomy that the biblical account represents a long-term cultural memory, spanning the 16th to 10th centuries BCE, rather than a specific event: "The beginning is vague and now untraceable."[37] Instead, modern archaeology suggests continuity between Canaanite and Israelite settlement, indicating a primarily Canaanite origin for Israel, with no suggestion that a group of foreigners from Egypt comprised early Israel.

Next post the possible historical basis for a possible event the exodus is based on.

I'm one of those Biblical maximalists and do not see a reason to deny the Exodus and conquest stories just because there is lack of historical evidence.
As you say, there are a number of hypotheses about the whole thing and the dating certainly has been messed up, both of the Exodus and the Conquest.
If the Bible is taken as history then the dating of the Exodus is 1450 BC ish. This means that there are anachronisms such as the mention of the city of Ramases, but these are easily answered by redactors changing the name of the city to Ramases so that people of a later period would know which city the Israelites were building in Egypt. So that name does not have to have anything to do with the dating of the Exodus. In fact the Bible is clear about when that happened. 480 years before Solomon began to build the Temple. So the Biblical dating is precise and is not in the 13th century but the 15th century BC. (1Kings 6:1).
Just which Pharaoh was ruling then is a topic of discussion because of the possible discrepencies in the Egyptian Chronology.
We don't know where that discussion will end up and how many hundred years the Egyptian chronology might be out.
There are things archaeologists have found in Egypt which could be the remains of the palace of Joseph and where his brothers and family lived, and their graves but it depends on the chronology thing.
It is no problem that official Egyptian records have nothing about Hebrew slaves and Moses and the defeat of all their gods with plagues that their gods could not stop. There is the Ipuwer Papyrus however which does mention plagues and events similar to the plagues of Moses day.
The understanding of the number of men 20 years old and over to be about 600,000 might be wrong. It seems the number can be interpreted different ways with smaller numbers at the end. Millions of people is very large for cities of that era.
It is interesting that interpretations and events have conspired to confuse the historicity of the Exodus and when the story was written.
What with the documentary hypothesis and the probably mistakes of Kathleen Kenyon about the archaeology of Jericho, things have been going sour for a long time.
But it amazes me how quickly the truth of the Bible is thrown out and replaced with theories that imo have been shown to be wrong.

 

[Kenny]

I'm one of those Biblical maximalists and do not see a reason to deny the Exodus and conquest stories just because there is lack of historical evidence.
As you say, there are a number of hypotheses about the whole thing and the dating certainly has been messed up, both of the Exodus and the Conquest.
If the Bible is taken as history then the dating of the Exodus is 1450 BC ish. This means that there are anachronisms such as the mention of the city of Ramases, but these are easily answered by redactors changing the name of the city to Ramases so that people of a later period would know which city the Israelites were building in Egypt. So that name does not have to have anything to do with the dating of the Exodus. In fact the Bible is clear about when that happened. 480 years before Solomon began to build the Temple. So the Biblical dating is precise and is not in the 13th century but the 15th century BC. (1Kings 6:1).
Just which Pharaoh was ruling then is a topic of discussion because of the possible discrepencies in the Egyptian Chronology.
We don't know where that discussion will end up and how many hundred years the Egyptian chronology might be out.
There are things archaeologists have found in Egypt which could be the remains of the palace of Joseph and where his brothers and family lived, and their graves but it depends on the chronology thing.
It is no problem that official Egyptian records have nothing about Hebrew slaves and Moses and the defeat of all their gods with plagues that their gods could not stop. There is the Ipuwer Papyrus however which does mention plagues and events similar to the plagues of Moses day.
The understanding of the number of men 20 years old and over to be about 600,000 might be wrong. It seems the number can be interpreted different ways with smaller numbers at the end. Millions of people is very large for cities of that era.
It is interesting that interpretations and events have conspired to confuse the historicity of the Exodus and when the story was written.
What with the documentary hypothesis and the probably mistakes of Kathleen Kenyon about the archaeology of Jericho, things have been going sour for a long time.
But it amazes me how quickly the truth of the Bible is thrown out and replaced with theories that imo have been shown to be wrong.

Extremely well said! Thank you!

 

[shunyadragon]

I'm one of those Biblical maximalists and do not see a reason to deny the Exodus and conquest stories just because there is lack of historical evidence.

You may not consider yourself a maximalist, but you take that perspective on many issues.
There is archaeological evidence that contradicts the Exodus record.

As you say, there are a number of hypotheses about the whole thing and the dating certainly has been messed up, both of the Exodus and the Conquest.
If the Bible is taken as history then the dating of the Exodus is 1450 BC ish. This means that there are anachronisms such as the mention of the city of Ramases, but these are easily answered by redactors changing the name of the city to Ramases so that people of a later period would know which city the Israelites were building in Egypt. So that name does not have to have anything to do with the dating of the Exodus. In fact the Bible is clear about when that happened. 480 years before Solomon began to build the Temple. So the Biblical dating is precise and is not in the 13th century but the 15th century BC. (1Kings 6:1).

Using the Bible to date itself is not sufficient.

Just which Pharaoh was ruling then is a topic of discussion because of the possible discrepancies in the Egyptian Chronology.
We don't know where that discussion will end up and how many hundred years the Egyptian chronology might be out.

'We do not know' is not a meaningful response. Despite claims of Egyptian record discrepancies, there is no contemporary Hebrew or other records to contradict the Egyptian records

There are things archaeologists have found in Egypt which could be the remains of the palace of Joseph and where his brothers and family lived, and their graves but it depends on the chronology thing.

'Could be' is an interpretation and not meaningful. The archaeological results are more meaningful.

It is no problem that official Egyptian records have nothing about Hebrew slaves and Moses and the defeat of all their gods with plagues that their gods could not stop. There is the Ipuwer Papyrus however which does mention plagues and events similar to the plagues of Moses day.

The problem with the Egyptian records is a problem concerning the Hebrew slaves and other issues is real. Yes, there were plagues, and some names and events in the memories and oral stories, but that does not resolve the problems cited in the reference,

The understanding of the number of men 20 years old and over to be about 600,000 might be wrong. It seems the number can be interpreted different ways with smaller numbers at the end. Millions of people is very large for cities of that era.

The numbers used in the Bible are a problem regardless.

It is interesting that interpretations and events have conspired to confuse the historicity of the Exodus and when the story was written.

There is no conspiracy involved here. It is a fact that the Exodus was compiled after ~600 to 500 BCE with absolutely no prior records.

What with the documentary hypothesis and the probable mistakes of Kathleen Kenyon about the archaeology of Jericho, things have been going sour for a long time. \

I go with the contemporary archaeological conclusions based on the evidence, and no evidence of an invasion of Canaan. Contemporary evidence of conflicts and wars within Canaan did occur. There was an Egyption invasion of Canaan it the 15th century BCE.

The current dating of the destruction of Jericho is ~~1400 BCE, but it remains that it has not been determined to be a part of a Hebrew invasion in part because the numbers and documentation do not determine that the Exodus involved any numbers to be called an invasion, In other words not confirming evidence of an invasion.

But it amazes me how quickly the truth of the Bible is thrown out and replaced with theories that imo have been shown to be wrong.

Please document 'Truth thrown out.' Over time the archaeological evidence stands. The reference gave several perspectives on the evidence, but nothing is 'thrown out.' I consider the archaeological evidence to stand without the different opinions of those references. The only change I see depends on future archaeological discoveries,

You may not consider yourself a maximalist, but you take that perspective on many issues.

 

[Brian2]

You may not consider yourself a maximalist, but you take that perspective on many issues.
There is archaeological evidence that contradicts the Exodus record.

You must have misunderstood what I said. I said I am a maximalist.
And yes there is archaeological evidence which contradicts the Exodus record but also evidence which supports it.

Using the Bible to date itself is not sufficient.

There is the precise dating of 480 years before the building of temple.
There is the mention of Pi Rameses.
There may be other things the Bible says about the dating of the Exodus and Conquest.
A maximalist like me takes the one that points to a date where the conquest archaeological evidence is found.

'We do not know' is not a meaningful response. Despite claims of Egyptian record discrepancies, there is no contemporary Hebrew or other records to contradict the Egyptian records

We can give a tentative yes or no for various pharaohs depending on various things that the Bible tells us.
There don't have to be records that contradict the Egyptian records. If discrepancies can be seen in the original dating of the Egyptian chronology can be seen then that can help reset the Chronology.

'Could be' is an interpretation and not meaningful. The archaeological results are more meaningful.

These are archaeological results but are interpreted wrong because of mistakes in archaeology and Egyptian chronology.
As I maximalist I see that as meaningful. THE archaeological results is meaningless. WHAT archaeological results are you talking about.
Maybe you just think that everyone should go along with what a mainstream consensus of OPINION says.

The problem with the Egyptian records is a problem concerning the Hebrew slaves and other issues is real. Yes, there were plagues, and some names and events in the memories and oral stories, but that does not resolve the problems cited in the reference,

This reference of yours has not got much archaeology in it.

The Exodus - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There is alternative opinions of what happened which seem to mainly be based on a false dating of the Exodus according to the Bible.
Lack of evidence for a conquest at that dating is because it is the wrong dating and the evidence for the conquest exists in the 1450BC dating and not 200 yrs later.

The numbers used in the Bible are a problem regardless.

Yes the numbers are a problem it seems.

There is no conspiracy involved here. It is a fact that the Exodus was compiled after ~600 to 500 BCE with absolutely no prior records.

No prior records does not mean that it was compined after 600 to 500BC. What sort of thinking is that?

I go with the contemporary archaeological conclusions based on the evidence, and no evidence of an invasion of Canaan. Contemporary evidence of conflicts and wars within Canaan did occur. There was an Egyption invasion of Canaan it the 15th century BCE.

There is archaeological evidence of the conquest 14th century and the archaeology of the Bible agrees with what the historical accounts in the Bible tell us.

The current dating of the destruction of Jericho is ~~1400 BCE, but it remains that it has not been determined to be a part of a Hebrew invasion in part because the numbers and documentation do not determine that the Exodus involved any numbers to be called an invasion, In other words not confirming evidence of an invasion.

The 1400BC destruction of Jericho is a confirmation of the invasion imo and part of the conquest evidence.

Please document 'Truth thrown out.' Over time the archaeological evidence stands. The reference gave several perspectives on the evidence, but nothing is 'thrown out.' I consider the archaeological evidence to stand without the different opinions of those references. The only change I see depends on future archaeological discoveries,

The "truth thrown out" is the documentation of what happened in the Biblical records.

 

[shunyadragon]

You must have misunderstood what I said. I said I am a maximalist.
And yes there is archaeological evidence which contradicts the Exodus record but also evidence which supports it.



There is the precise dating of 480 years before the building of temple.
There is the mention of Pi Rameses.
There may be other things the Bible says about the dating of the Exodus and Conquest.
A maximalist like me takes the one that points to a date where the conquest archaeological evidence is found.



We can give a tentative yes or no for various pharaohs depending on various things that the Bible tells us.
There don't have to be records that contradict the Egyptian records. If discrepancies can be seen in the original dating of the Egyptian chronology can be seen then that can help reset the Chronology.



These are archaeological results but are interpreted wrong because of mistakes in archaeology and Egyptian chronology.
As I maximalist I see that as meaningful. THE archaeological results is meaningless. WHAT archaeological results are you talking about.
Maybe you just think that everyone should go along with what a mainstream consensus of OPINION says.



This reference of yours has not got much archaeology in it.

The Exodus - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There is alternative opinions of what happened which seem to mainly be based on a false dating of the Exodus according to the Bible.
Lack of evidence for a conquest at that dating is because it is the wrong dating and the evidence for the conquest exists in the 1450BC dating and not 200 yrs later.



Yes the numbers are a problem it seems.



No prior records does not mean that it was compined after 600 to 500BC. What sort of thinking is that?

No prior records of Exodus or the Pentateuch prior to 600-500 BCE and no Egyptian records to support the exodus to the event described in Exodus.

There is archaeological evidence of the conquest 14th century and the archaeology of the Bible agrees with what the historical accounts in the Bible tell us.

No concerned the reference I provided.

The 1400BC destruction of Jericho is a confirmation of the invasion imo and part of the conquest evidence.

No it is evidence of the destruction of Jericho and not the invasion.

The "truth thrown out" is the documentation of what happened in the Biblical records.

The concept of 'Truth' is based on faith and belief, not the evidence, and archaeological evidence is required and it is lacking for not only Exodus but the entire Pentateuch including no evidence for the existence of Abraham.

 

[viole]

Porcupines haven't told you anything about this yet, have they? After life, btw, is death. Life is life and death is death.

Porcupines? I listen often to Porcupine Tree, but I am not sure that is what you mean.

You seem to be obsessed with the afterlife. Have you been hearing good things about decomposing, recently?

Ciao

- viole

 

[shunyadragon]

I'm one of those Biblical maximalists and do not see a reason to deny the Exodus and conquest stories just because there is lack of historical evidence.
As you say, there are a number of hypotheses about the whole thing and the dating certainly has been messed up, both of the Exodus and the Conquest.
If the Bible is taken as history then the dating of the Exodus is 1450 BC ish. This means that there are anachronisms such as the mention of the city of Ramases, but these are easily answered by redactors changing the name of the city to Ramases so that people of a later period would know which city the Israelites were building in Egypt. So that name does not have to have anything to do with the dating of the Exodus. In fact the Bible is clear about when that happened. 480 years before Solomon began to build the Temple. So the Biblical dating is precise and is not in the 13th century but the 15th century BC. (1Kings 6:1).
Just which Pharaoh was ruling then is a topic of discussion because of the possible discrepencies in the Egyptian Chronology.
We don't know where that discussion will end up and how many hundred years the Egyptian chronology might be out.
There are things archaeologists have found in Egypt which could be the remains of the palace of Joseph and where his brothers and family lived, and their graves but it depends on the chronology thing.
It is no problem that official Egyptian records have nothing about Hebrew slaves and Moses and the defeat of all their gods with plagues that their gods could not stop. There is the Ipuwer Papyrus however which does mention plagues and events similar to the plagues of Moses day.
The understanding of the number of men 20 years old and over to be about 600,000 might be wrong. It seems the number can be interpreted different ways with smaller numbers at the end. Millions of people is very large for cities of that era.
It is interesting that interpretations and events have conspired to confuse the historicity of the Exodus and when the story was written.
What with the documentary hypothesis and the probably mistakes of Kathleen Kenyon about the archaeology of Jericho, things have been going sour for a long time.
But it amazes me how quickly the truth of the Bible is thrown out and replaced with theories that imo have been shown to be wrong.

Yes, there is absolutely no documented historical evidence for Exodus or the Pentateuch as a whole including important figures like Abraham, Noah, and Moses, Hebrew as a written language evolved from more ancient Ugarit, Canaanite, and Phoenician languages. The archaeological evidence is the large Ugarit libraries that contain the source materials for the Pentateuch. The problem I cited is the overwhelming evidence that the Pentateuch was compiled and edited after 600 BCE from more ancient non-Hebrew sources There is room for any evidence of the maximalist position except for 'faith.' Even compromised positions that maintain a historical Abraham, Noah, and Moses have little basis for maintaining their view.