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Interesting discussion about religion and evolution

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
As I have been saying, the way scientists describe it, it is mindless. It's a bunch of chemical reactions without mindful purpose. It is supposed to do what it does mindlessly.
The article does not necessarily agree with your view Careful., yes the concept of the scientific nature of our physical existence does neither determine whether there is a mind behind the universe or not. Science is neutral here and may be described as mindless because it can not falsify anything beyond the physical nature of our universe. It is a given that science cannot determine an anthropomorphic God exists and right or wrong that there is a mind that created our universe.

The article more asks questions and not conclusions.
 
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YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I agree. I'm not saying that he is rejecting actual, objective truth. What I am saying is that he is taking something that he already accepts as probably true in favor of lying to himself. As he continues on...

"Let me live on, in my simple ignorance, as my fathers lived before me, and when I shall at length be summoned to my final repose, let me still be able to fold the drapery of my couch about me, and lie down to pleasant, even if they be deceitful, dreams."

Let me emphasize that last bit.

"and lie down to pleasant, even if they be deceitful, dreams."

He is actively trying to shelter himself from what he thinks is true in favor of what he describes as self deception. That is delusional thinking
It comes down to this: either a person has faith in God or he does not. It's simple. We make choices, also based on rationality. And because there is no PROOF for some in terms of God, it's up to each one of us to do what he perceives is the right thing to do. If I were convinced that the Bible is not true, I'd go along with that. I figured that out a long time ago. It's kind of like taking smallpox vaccinations. Either you believe it could hurt you and therefore don't take it and run the risk of getting smallpox, or you do not. Your choice.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I did explain my thoughts in more detail further down



The quote "Much as I love truth in the abstract, my hope of immortality still more" encapsulates this perfectly

If you have to say to yourself "This one thing is probably true, but I'm going to actively try to pretend that it's not and try to convince myself instead that this other thing is true because it's what I want to be true" - that's delusional thinking
I understand his reasoning. He's still wrong for various reasons. That does not mean he will not live forever.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Just like every other force of nature
thank you for admitting the truth about the theory of evolution. Evolution is mindless, has no purpose. According to evolution, humans and turtles just are, by the force of evolution. Some people think they can combine the two -- salvation and evolution. I have noticed, however, that those who believe that way are very reluctant to explain. But it's ok. Have a good one. Not that you should try to ask those who do believe in the combination of the theory of evolution with the idea of salvation but maybe you can try to see how or if they figure it. Take care. :)
 

Brian2

Veteran Member

Not wanting to distract from the point of your OP, and also seeing the scientific beginnings of life as really an evolution of atoms and molecules into the first things that can be said to be alive, I also realise that evolution and biogenesis are seen as different topics in science, or at least on this forum, and have different mechanisms since initially there were no genes.
Anyway, just responding to what A P Barnard wrote, here is an interesting interview, and I am talking about the first half (11 minutes) of this video and an interview with Dr James Tour.

 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
It comes down to this: either a person has faith in God or he does not. It's simple. We make choices, also based on rationality. And because there is no PROOF for some in terms of God, it's up to each one of us to do what he perceives is the right thing to do. If I were convinced that the Bible is not true, I'd go along with that. I figured that out a long time ago. It's kind of like taking smallpox vaccinations. Either you believe it could hurt you and therefore don't take it and run the risk of getting smallpox, or you do not. Your choice.

Not based on rationality. A very tight circular reason and self-justification. This post does not address the reasons you make decisions. Basically, you were likely raised as a Christian.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Not wanting to distract from the point of your OP, and also seeing the scientific beginnings of life as really an evolution of atoms and molecules into the first things that can be said to be alive, I also realise that evolution and biogenesis are seen as different topics in science, or at least on this forum, and have different mechanisms since initially there were no genes.
Anyway, just responding to what A P Barnard wrote, here is an interesting interview, and I am talking about the first half (11 minutes) of this video and an interview with Dr James Tour.

Very interesting.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
thank you for admitting the truth about the theory of evolution. Evolution is mindless, has no purpose.

And this is why you aren’t really educated in biology.

You are still thinking only Evolution in terms of humans only, and ignoring all other life forms.

Evolution is biodiversity, it is biology and a large part of diversity, comes from genetic variation.

You don’t need “mind” and “purpose” to reproduce, to pass physical traits through genetics.

Do you think plants have mind and purpose? How about with algae, or fungi or bacteria?

None of these organisms that I listed in both questions have “intent” (thus purpose), nor do require thinking, as it is already built into their systems to reproduce. You are ignoring all these other organisms.

You should not be thinking biology in anthropomorphically. Plants and fungi don’t have any of human characteristics.

You will continue to fail to understand Evolution, as long as you are chained to narrow-thinking of JW version of creationism.

I thought the Discovery Institute was moronic organisation, filled with intellectual dishonest and faith-bankrupt people, but JW is following the road, as an organization and as a religion.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Not based on rationality. A very tight circular reason and self-justification. This post does not address the reasons you make decisions. Basically, you were likely raised as a Christian.

There are nothing wrong with being Christians. Many working biologists are Christians, and accepted that Evolution is science.

But people in Jehovah’s Witnesses are not known for their intellectual geniuses, nor for their brilliant scientific researches or works.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
There are nothing wrong with being Christians. Many working biologists are Christians, and accepted that Evolution is science.

But people in Jehovah’s Witnesses are not known for their intellectual geniuses, nor for their brilliant scientific researches or works.

I believe by the evidence there is a severe problem in the relationship between those who believe differently, science, and the contemporary world with Judaism, Christianity, and Islam based on the claims literally as described in their ancient tribal scriptures. Many resorts to a selective citation of the scriptures to justify a 'liberal interpretation' to try and make it fit our contemporary world. Jews are the most successful in negating the importance of the Pentateuch lineage of Hebrew origins, appealing to Midrash and tradition nonetheless remaining exclusively tribal. Unfortunately, Christianity and Islam are anchored in a literal Genesis and in some ways the Pentateuch as directly defined in their scriptures. The Koran directly states that the Pentateuch is literal scripture. Christian fundamental beliefs are anchored in the Original Sin and the Fall of Adam and Eve. Both Christianity and Islam trace their lineage to the Messiah's prophethood as the exclusive and only true prophet or Messianic manifestation of God. These factors and others will always call the faithful home to a version of a literal scripture and tribal foundation.

White Wash comes off in the rain.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
So... logically speaking, in your view, death is the absolute end without doubt of life according to the scientific theory, do I understand your view correctly about evolution? (Being mindless...)
Death is the end of your life, you will be remembered by family and friends but brutal as it sounds, it is the end for you.
I'm not aware it is a scientific theory, it is just common sense.
Have you ever watched a dead bird decompose over a period of days, the same happens to humans. Unless you are cremated.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Not wanting to distract from the point of your OP, and also seeing the scientific beginnings of life as really an evolution of atoms and molecules into the first things that can be said to be alive, I also realise that evolution and biogenesis are seen as different topics in science, or at least on this forum, and have different mechanisms since initially there were no genes.
Anyway, just responding to what A P Barnard wrote, here is an interesting interview, and I am talking about the first half (11 minutes) of this video and an interview with Dr James Tour.


ALL of the abiogenesis and evolution is the natural process involving atoms and molecules, but the atoms and molecules in pre-life or life cannot be considered alive. Yes in a sense evolution and abiogenesis are considered different topics, but As far as science is concerned the boundary between abiogenesis and evolution is continuous driven by the environment and environmental change. Abiogenesis did not take place and evolution begin until the ideal environment existed in vents associated with the ocean floor spreading after continental drift began.

The video on Intelligent Design lacks intelligence. It is fast talking 'arguing from ignorance' without an science to back it up. The problem with proposals of Intelligent Design is that it cannot falsify a hypothesis that all observed natural cause and effect outcomes could not have come about naturally including abiogenesis an evolution. In the history of the Discovery Institute they have never came up with a falsifiable hypothesis for Intelligent Design. As far as science goes the complexity of life comes about naturally by Natural Laws and processes.
 
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gnostic

The Lost One
I also realise that evolution and biogenesis are seen as different topics in science, or at least on this forum, and have different mechanisms since initially there were no genes.

as I said to you before, the majority of biologists are only focused on today’s extant and living species of organisms.

Not as many are involved in search for fossils of some earlier extinct species. Most biologists are not paleontologists, because paleontology is a specialised field, so not every universities around the world would offer paleontology as a course.

But even fewer people are investigating Abiogenesis, which are about the hypothesis for origins of life, because it is also specialised field, requiring far more advanced knowledge of chemistry and of biochemistry.

And the thing you need reminding, is that inorganic matters and organic matters, are all chemistry.

Chemical reactions and molecular interactions are all natural occurrence & natural processes, whether it be inorganic or organic chemistry.

I know I don’t have the experiences and knowledge in chemistry to even know how to begin the research in Abiogenesis, I am quite sure you are in the same boat as me. But the differences between you and me, is that you’re allowing your religious belief to cloud and to bias your thought processes.

Like every other creationists, here and elsewhere, your arguments against either Evolution or Abiogenesis, are -
  • based on superstitions of some invisible powerful entity can transform dust (or some sorts of soil) into living fully grown human male, that require some unnatural and unnecessary magic
  • or based on arguments from ignorance, straw man arguments, and all sorts of
  • and the overuse of irrelevant analogies or metaphors for either creationism or Intelligent Design that are not relevant to explain biological processes
And none of your arguments or from your fellow-creationists have any observable and verifiable empirical evidence to support any one’s of your arguments. Instead of finding evidence to support your arguments, you all rely on circular reasoning, confirmation biases and misinformation to base your arguments on.

What you really don’t understand about Evolution, as I have witnessed among other creationists, is that biodiversity, which may or may not cause speciation, though genetic variation and adaptation, which involve evolutionary mechanisms, such as
  • mutations,
  • genetic drift,
  • gene flow,
  • genetic hitchhiking,
  • natural selection.

…each of these mechanisms, involved natural processes; there are no unnatural magic or miracles in these processes.

Evolution was never about the origin of life. It was always about how life change over time, not about “first life”.

And Evolution is just about human evolution, but about every other animals, as well as about plants, fungi, protists, archaea and bacteria. These are all living “cellular” organisms, whether it be multicellular organisms or unicellular organism, or whether it be eukaryotes or prokaryotes. Evolution deals with speciation of each these organisms.

While Abiogenesis is indeed about the origin of life, but the studies isn’t limited to origin of life, it is about the origins of biological molecules, such as proteins (which are made of biopolymer chains of amino acids), nuclei acids (eg RNA, DNA), carbohydrates, lipids, etc. Every cells of every living organisms, are made made from these four fundamental biological macromolecules.

Abiogenesis is about unlocking how these biological macromolecules form, in the first place.

There are nothing magical or supernatural about chemistry and biochemistry.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
I believe by the evidence there is a severe problem in the relationship between those who believe differently, science, and the contemporary world with Judaism, Christianity, and Islam based on the claims literally as described in their ancient tribal scriptures. Many resorts to a selective citation of the scriptures to justify a 'liberal interpretation' to try and make it fit our contemporary world. Jews are the most successful in negating the importance of the Pentateuch lineage of Hebrew origins, appealing to Midrash and tradition nonetheless remaining exclusively tribal. Unfortunately, Christianity and Islam are anchored in a literal Genesis and in some ways the Pentateuch as directly defined in their scriptures. The Koran directly states that the Pentateuch is literal scripture. Christian fundamental beliefs are anchored in the Original Sin and the Fall of Adam and Eve. Both Christianity and Islam trace their lineage to the Messiah's prophethood as the exclusive and only true prophet or Messianic manifestation of God. These factors and others will always call the faithful home to a version of a literal scripture and tribal foundation.

White Wash comes off in the rain.

The thing is, if you have read about, from Adam to Solomon, and even after Solomon, the relationship between the biblical figures and their God, was that all rewards and punishments were done while each people were alive, there are nothing about there being afterlife. Sure, Sheol were mentioned a few times in the Tanakh (or what Christians called it the Old Testament), but these allusions were very vague, it could means anything or nothing.

The whole “afterlife”, and the departed spirits being judged, only exist in more ancient polytheistic religions, from Egypt, Mesopotamia, Persia and Greece, than from Christianity (eg Jesus and his apostles) and Islam (eg Muhammad).

During the Exile to Babylon, and the early centuries of the Second Temple period (especially the Hellenistic period), Jews have been surrounded by foreign and pagan cultures, because Jews have been living not just in Judaea, but aboard like in Alexandria in Egypt and Antioch in Seleucid Syria, where the languages of trades were either Koine Greek or Aramaic in the eastern Mediterranean.

Greek and Egyptian cultures were intermixed in Alexandria, which was not only the birthplace of Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures, it was also where a number of apocryphal texts and pseudepigraphal texts (eg the highly influential books of Enoch and the Book of Jubilees, etc) had very foreign ideas about heavens and hell that would later influence the gospels, epistles and Revelation of Christians, as well as in Gnostic texts.

like it or not, Islam did escape from these foreign cultures. Muhammad may not be able to read and write, but religious teaching to the illiterate masses were achieved through preaching of Christian preachers and through Jewish storytellers. And since Arabia was place of trades, Muhammad must have heard of many stories from the mouth of Christians and Jews living in Arabia. Despite what some muslims might say, Muhammad wasn’t ignorant to stories of Christians and Jews, prior to self-promoting himself as a prophet. From the Christians, it was the most likely sources to Muslim versions of heaven and hell, the afterlife.

such afterlife didn’t exist in early Judaism.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
such afterlife didn’t exist in early Judaism.
Probably true, but as an added note when I visited Israel and had an opportunity to dialogue with many different Jews I found several interesting beliefs. It was common for them to not consider Judaism a religion. They seemed indifferent to the question of an afterlife, or Heaven and Hell. In fact a few actually ridiculed the standard Christian beliefs.
 
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YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Death is the end of your life, you will be remembered by family and friends but brutal as it sounds, it is the end for you.
I'm not aware it is a scientific theory, it is just common sense.
Have you ever watched a dead bird decompose over a period of days, the same happens to humans. Unless you are cremated.
Humans have a different perspective about death from turtles, gorillas, ants and the like. We know we face death. So far I have not heard from a gorilla or parakeet that they wonder about death, have you? Only humans do.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
The thing is, if you have read about, from Adam to Solomon, and even after Solomon, the relationship between the biblical figures and their God, was that all rewards and punishments were done while each people were alive, there are nothing about there being afterlife. Sure, Sheol were mentioned a few times in the Tanakh (or what Christians called it the Old Testament), but these allusions were very vague, it could means anything or nothing.

While it is often known as the Old Testament in many translations even though it was never really called the "Old Testament" while being written, for many it is not an accurate description anyway.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Not wanting to distract from the point of your OP, and also seeing the scientific beginnings of life as really an evolution of atoms and molecules into the first things that can be said to be alive, I also realise that evolution and biogenesis are seen as different topics in science, or at least on this forum, and have different mechanisms since initially there were no genes.
Anyway, just responding to what A P Barnard wrote, here is an interesting interview, and I am talking about the first half (11 minutes) of this video and an interview with Dr James Tour.

I happened to be looking over your post again -- and I have been reading about some older experiments figuring about biologic elements and non-living matter, it is very, very inteesting. As I considered this, I remember two things Jesus said about this in a way: 1. is that he is LIVING WATER. and 2. is that if the disciples would not cry out, the stones would. Yes of course these were allusions but God can make life from non-life. It is all very interesting.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
as I said to you before, the majority of biologists are only focused on today’s extant and living species of organisms.

Not as many are involved in search for fossils of some earlier extinct species. Most biologists are not paleontologists, because paleontology is a specialised field, so not every universities around the world would offer paleontology as a course.

But even fewer people are investigating Abiogenesis, which are about the hypothesis for origins of life, because it is also specialised field, requiring far more advanced knowledge of chemistry and of biochemistry.

And the thing you need reminding, is that inorganic matters and organic matters, are all chemistry.

Chemical reactions and molecular interactions are all natural occurrence & natural processes, whether it be inorganic or organic chemistry.

I know I don’t have the experiences and knowledge in chemistry to even know how to begin the research in Abiogenesis, I am quite sure you are in the same boat as me. But the differences between you and me, is that you’re allowing your religious belief to cloud and to bias your thought processes.

Like every other creationists, here and elsewhere, your arguments against either Evolution or Abiogenesis, are -
  • based on superstitions of some invisible powerful entity can transform dust (or some sorts of soil) into living fully grown human male, that require some unnatural and unnecessary magic
  • or based on arguments from ignorance, straw man arguments, and all sorts of
  • and the overuse of irrelevant analogies or metaphors for either creationism or Intelligent Design that are not relevant to explain biological processes
And none of your arguments or from your fellow-creationists have any observable and verifiable empirical evidence to support any one’s of your arguments. Instead of finding evidence to support your arguments, you all rely on circular reasoning, confirmation biases and misinformation to base your arguments on.

What you really don’t understand about Evolution, as I have witnessed among other creationists, is that biodiversity, which may or may not cause speciation, though genetic variation and adaptation, which involve evolutionary mechanisms, such as
  • mutations,
  • genetic drift,
  • gene flow,
  • genetic hitchhiking,
  • natural selection.

…each of these mechanisms, involved natural processes; there are no unnatural magic or miracles in these processes.

Evolution was never about the origin of life. It was always about how life change over time, not about “first life”.

And Evolution is just about human evolution, but about every other animals, as well as about plants, fungi, protists, archaea and bacteria. These are all living “cellular” organisms, whether it be multicellular organisms or unicellular organism, or whether it be eukaryotes or prokaryotes. Evolution deals with speciation of each these organisms.

While Abiogenesis is indeed about the origin of life, but the studies isn’t limited to origin of life, it is about the origins of biological molecules, such as proteins (which are made of biopolymer chains of amino acids), nuclei acids (eg RNA, DNA), carbohydrates, lipids, etc. Every cells of every living organisms, are made made from these four fundamental biological macromolecules.

Abiogenesis is about unlocking how these biological macromolecules form, in the first place.

There are nothing magical or supernatural about chemistry and biochemistry.

OK thanks
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Some people think they can combine the two -- salvation and evolution. I have noticed, however, that those who believe that way are very reluctant to explain.
What specifically do you think I'm unwilling to explain?

I believe that if God exists and God is just, God won't punish us for being the product of nature and our environment, neither of which are our fault.

Therefore salvation would be awarded by a just God to all who desire it.
 
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