International endocrinologists speak out against US gender transition medicine

[Debater Slayer]

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[Debater Slayer]

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[We Never Know]

You said governments should stay out of it. It being medicine.

See post #9..I said..

"And IMO governments should stay out of it period. Its a medical desicion, not a political decision."

"It" being transgender care

 

[Subduction Zone]

You can find a group of scientists against anything. What matters is what the actual science says.

Scientific literacy is rare these days amongst the average folk.

And one can always find some "scientists" that make claims. The problem is are they scientists in the first place. Most doctors are not scientists. Scientists are the people studying particular problems and presenting evidence about them. If one is merely a doctor in the field that is not all that impressive since with many thousands of such doctors it is easy to find a few voices in opposition.

To @We Never Know , what research in this field have these people done? Where are their publications? If they have none then why should anyone pay any attention to them?

 

[We Never Know]

And one can always find some "scientists" that make claims. The problem is are they scientists in the first place. Most doctors are not scientists. Scientists are the people studying particular problems and presenting evidence about them. If one is merely a doctor in the field that is not all that impressive since with many thousands of such doctors it is easy to find a few voices in opposition.

To @We Never Know , what research in this field have these people done? Where are their publications? If they have none then why should anyone pay any attention to them?

To @Subduction Zone. The people are endocrinology clinicians. So I would think they have experience in the field.

Opinion | Youth Gender Transition Is Pushed Without Evidence

Psychotherapy, not hormones and surgery, is increasingly the first line of treatment abroad.

www.wsj.com

 

[Subduction Zone]

To @Subduction Zone. The people are endocrinology clinicians. So I would think they have experience in the field.

Opinion | Youth Gender Transition Is Pushed Without Evidence

Psychotherapy, not hormones and surgery, is increasingly the first line of treatment abroad.

www.wsj.com

They will have experience in the field, but they are not automatically scientists. Creationists can always dig up a few loons too. Twenty one of them are just a drop in the bucket. For all scientists it does not matter what one believes. It matters what one can support. How do they support their claims? Even if one cannot read their articles in the primary literature they should have at least some.

 

[Revoltingest]

It seems to be more about politics than care.

"A group of 21 international endocrinology clinicians and researchers from nine countries signed an open letter published yesterday arguing that gender transition medicine for minors has been pushed in the United States for political reasons rather than based on medical evidence.

"Every systematic review of evidence to date, including one published in the Journal of the Endocrine Society, has found the evidence for mental-health benefits of hormonal interventions for minors to be of low or very low certainty," wrote the group of endocrinologists in the letter published on Thursday in the Wall Street Journal.

The letter comes in response to the public letter from the President of the Endocrine Society, Stephen Hammes, expressing resounding support for hormonal gender transition, such as treatments like puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones.

Hammes specifically criticized organizations like Do No Harm, an organization of medical professionals and advocates against gender transition medicine for minors, as being politically motivated rather than driven by scientific evidence.

The letter published on Thursday, however, highlights that the risks of life-long sterility and medical dependency, as well as continued mental trauma, have greater certainty than the little-supported evidence in favor of hormonal transition.

For this reason, more and more European countries and international professional organizations now recommend psychotherapy rather than hormones and surgeries as the first line of treatment for gender-dysphoric youth," wrote the international team of physicians.

Four of the physicians who signed the letter are from the United States, and the letter ends with a specific statement on the way politics is detrimentally affecting medical practice.

"The politicization of transgender healthcare in the U.S. is unfortunate," wrote the 21 endocrinologists. "The way to combat it is for medical societies to align their recommendations with the best available evidence — rather than exaggerating the benefits and minimizing the risks."

Ari Wolf, Director of Outreach at Do No Harm, told the Washington Examiner that part of the reason for the politicization of transgender medicine is that the issue is taking "a personal human form in almost every American household."

"I meet grandmothers and fathers and everyone in between who has someone in their immediate family who is struggling with this issue," said Wolf. "It is now so pervasive."

Although the majority of the legislative response to transgender medical issues is taking place on the state level, Wolf thinks that youth gender transition medicine will have a "very important role to play" at the national level in the 2024 election cycle.

"It's framing the direction both parties or ideologies are going and what kind of mantle they want to wrap themselves in," said Wolf."

MSN

www.msn.com

The article provides no analysis to support their claim.
There are issues I'd want to see considered....
- Rate of regretting transition.
- Problems of transitioning after puberty.
- Possibilities (other than banning) to address
problems of early transition.

Some experts taking a stand in opposition
to other experts requires enuf info for us to
evaluate their reasoning.

 

[We Never Know]

The article provides no analysis to support their claim.
There are issues I'd want to see considered....
- Rate of regretting transition.
- Problems of transitioning after puberty.
- Possibilities (other than banning) to address
problems of early transition.

Some experts taking a stand in opposition
to other experts requires enuf info for us to
evaluate their reasoning.

They are not saying ban transgender treatment. If you want to know the hows, whys, etc.. Ask them.

They are saying.....

""A group of 21 international endocrinology clinicians and researchers from nine countries signed an open letter published yesterday arguing that gender transition medicine for minors has been pushed in the United States for political reasons rather than based on medical evidence."

"Every systematic review of evidence to date, including one published in the Journal of the Endocrine Society, has found the evidence for mental-health benefits of hormonal interventions for minors to be of low or very low certainty," wrote the group of endocrinologists in the letter published on Thursday in the Wall Street Journal."

"Hammes specifically criticized organizations like Do No Harm, an organization of medical professionals and advocates against gender transition medicine for minors, as being politically motivated rather than driven by scientific evidence"


"The letter published on Thursday, however, highlights that the risks of life-long sterility and medical dependency, as well as continued mental trauma, have greater certainty than the little-supported evidence in favor of hormonal transition.

For this reason, more and more European countries and international professional organizations now recommend psychotherapy rather than hormones and surgeries as the first line of treatment for gender-dysphoric youth," wrote the international team of physicians"

"The politicization of transgender healthcare in the U.S. is unfortunate," wrote the 21 endocrinologists. "The way to combat it is for medical societies to align their recommendations with the best available evidence — rather than exaggerating the benefits and minimizing the risks"

 

[Revoltingest]

They are not saying ban transgender treatment. If you want to know the hows, whys, etc.. Ask them.

They are saying.....

""A group of 21 international endocrinology clinicians and researchers from nine countries signed an open letter published yesterday arguing that gender transition medicine for minors has been pushed in the United States for political reasons rather than based on medical evidence."

"Every systematic review of evidence to date, including one published in the Journal of the Endocrine Society, has found the evidence for mental-health benefits of hormonal interventions for minors to be of low or very low certainty," wrote the group of endocrinologists in the letter published on Thursday in the Wall Street Journal."

"Hammes specifically criticized organizations like Do No Harm, an organization of medical professionals and advocates against gender transition medicine for minors, as being politically motivated rather than driven by scientific evidence"


"The letter published on Thursday, however, highlights that the risks of life-long sterility and medical dependency, as well as continued mental trauma, have greater certainty than the little-supported evidence in favor of hormonal transition.

For this reason, more and more European countries and international professional organizations now recommend psychotherapy rather than hormones and surgeries as the first line of treatment for gender-dysphoric youth," wrote the international team of physicians"

"The politicization of transgender healthcare in the U.S. is unfortunate," wrote the 21 endocrinologists. "The way to combat it is for medical societies to align their recommendations with the best available evidence — rather than exaggerating the benefits and minimizing the risks"

OK.

 

[Watchmen]

See post #9..I said..

"And IMO governments should stay out of it period. Its a medical desicion, not a political decision."

"It" being transgender care

And transgender care being a medical decision. So you want governments to stay out of medical decisions.

 

[We Never Know]

And transgender care being a medical decision. So you want governments to stay out of medical decisions.

"And IMO governments should stay out of it period. Its a medical desicion, not a political decision."

"It" being transgender care

I thought I was clear but..I reckon not to you so....

I do not think.that the government should tell someone whether or not they can recievce or can't receive transgender treatment. Its up to their medical professionals, not politics.

I sure hope that is clear for you.

 

[Watchmen]

"And IMO governments should stay out of it period. Its a medical desicion, not a political decision."

"It" being transgender care

I thought I was clear but..I reckon not to you so....

I do not think.that the government should tell someone whether or not they can recievce or can't receive transgender treatment. Its up to their medical professionals, not politics.

I sure hope that is clear for you.

I get it. You want governments to stay out of transgender care. But you also know that transgender care equates to a medical decision. This, you want government to stay out of medical decisions. Where do you draw the line?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Actually I think its saying its too political and to take the government and politics out of it.

Hence...

"Hammes specifically criticized organizations like Do No Harm, an organization of medical professionals and advocates against gender transition medicine for minors, as being politically motivated rather than driven by scientific evidence."

"Four of the physicians who signed the letter are from the United States, and the letter ends with a specific statement on the way politics is detrimentally affecting medical practice."

"Although the majority of the legislative response to transgender medical issues is taking place on the state level, Wolf thinks that youth gender transition medicine will have a "very important role to play" at the national level in the 2024 election cycle."

The problem I see here is that the physicians who signed the letter are NOT the physicians who are actually treating patients who are (or may be) experiencing gender disphoria. I don't know who these physicians are, nor what their specialties or fields of expertise are -- nor do I know whether they may be proceeding from religious precepts. I think that we should know something about that, don't you? Because after all, who is to say that their opinions are not likewise politically motivated?

 

[SkepticThinker]

I guess so much for what the experts say.. lol

Really? Based on 21 endocrinologists who signed a letter?

I guess so much for what the experts say.. lol

What do the other thousands of endocrinologists think and what does their work show?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

The problem I see here is that the physicians who signed the letter are NOT the physicians who are actually treating patients who are (or may be) experiencing gender disphoria. I don't know who these physicians are, nor what their specialties or fields of expertise are -- nor do I know whether they may be proceeding from religious precepts. I think that we should know something about that, don't you? Because after all, who is to say that their opinions are not likewise politically motivated?

One must also note that the letter in question (by the 21 members of the Endocrine Society) was issued to contradict a letter written by the President of that Society -- and that the Society itself has 18,000 members. 21 out of 18,000 is not a really solid representative sample, now is it?

 

[icehorse]

@SkepticThinker and @Evangelicalhumanist -

Here's a key excerpt from the report:

"Every systematic review of evidence to date, including one published in the Journal of the Endocrine Society, has found the evidence for mental-health benefits of hormonal interventions for minors to be of low or very low certainty," wrote the group of endocrinologists in the letter published on Thursday in the Wall Street Journal."

This is a factual claim, correct? It matters not who said it, or how many people said it. If you're going to criticize the claim, you must criticize it based on its merits. And it IS falsifiable. In other words, if it's not true, you COULD find evidence that it's not true.

Let's step back for a minute.

The people who first proposed using puberty blockers for trans youth were in fact making an extraordinary claim, whether they acknowledged it or not. The claim I've heard repeatedly could be summarized as this:

"Despite the know problematic side effects of puberty blockers, we believe their use will reduce the suicide rate of trans youths."

Listen, if that's correct, then it's probably a good call. But if they are NOT correct, then it's a really bad call. If they're wrong on the benefits, they are subjecting a lot of youths to a lifetime of health issues.

So the underlying claim of "saving lives" IS and extraordinary AND consequential claim.

As such, the evidence in support of the claim must be of the highest caliber. If the evidence is dubious, the practice ought to be suspended, at the very least.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

The article provides no analysis to support their claim.
There are issues I'd want to see considered....
- Rate of regretting transition.
- Problems of transitioning after puberty.
- Possibilities (other than banning) to address
problems of early transition.

Some experts taking a stand in opposition
to other experts requires enuf info for us to
evaluate their reasoning.

I rather think that some study regarding the potential consequences of doing absolutely nothing until after puberty would also be of value. Things like attempts at suicide, self-harm, which can also lead to permanent psychological damage.

Because it seems that is the avenue being prescribed by these 21 endocrinologists, the Republicans in about 19 states, and @icehorse.

 

[Revoltingest]

I rather think that some study regarding the potential consequences of doing absolutely nothing until after puberty would also be of value. Things like attempts at suicide, self-harm, which can also lead to permanent psychological damage.

Because it seems that is the avenue being prescribed by these 21 endocrinologists, the Republicans in about 19 states, and @icehorse.

You mean to say that alternatives should have
their results compared? How radical !!!!

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

You mean to say that alternatives should have
their results compared? How radical !!!!

Yeah, well, you know me...way out there!

 

[icehorse]

I rather think that some study regarding the potential consequences of doing absolutely nothing until after puberty would also be of value. Things like attempts at suicide, self-harm, which can also lead to permanent psychological damage.

Because it seems that is the avenue being prescribed by these 21 endocrinologists, the Republicans in about 19 states, and @icehorse.

I don't think that that's what the endrocrinologists and I are thinking. I will NOT accept being lumped in with GOP lawmakers

I think the answer is psychotherapy - of some sort. At least until a person is 21.

Remember, the rates of suicidal thoughts and suicides are sharply up across ALL youths. Also remember that for most every youth, sexuality is confusing, uncomfortable and traumatic.