Interviewing @Debater Slayer

[The Sum of Awe]

How do you stay disciplined in your work, when you were in school studying, meditating 1-2 hours a day, and everything else while maintaining a social life? Do you ever burn out from it all?

What are some noticeable changes meditation has had on you? How long did it take to start noticing these changes?

 

[Vee]

Here's my question: what makes you genuinely happy?

 

[JustGeorge]

DBT is more focused on intense emotions than many other therapies, although there are many other differences, including nuanced ones. There are also common factors between DBT and some other therapies (it's based on CBT, for example).

DBT, just like other evidence-based therapies, doesn't work for everyone or for all situations, so its usage depends on the person, their issues, and their specific circumstances. I have encountered a misconception that if a therapy is evidence-based or if a specific approach helps someone, then it must also help everyone else or be applicable to their situation. That is a stark oversimplification.

That's interesting. There wouldn't be much point in developing other therapies if they all worked for everyone!

I will preface what I'm about to say here by pointing out that, as I said above, even among medically validated approaches, not everyone will respond the same way to any given approach or find it effective. I'm just talking about my own experience, what I have learned in my own therapy, and what has worked for me. I don't intend to speak as if I were a medical authority or a qualified professional, because I'm neither.

To answer the question: Both, but not necessarily (or even usually) at the same time. Mindfulness encompasses awareness of one's thoughts and other inner experiences as well as one's surroundings and other external experiences. During meditation, the focus could be on either, or it could be on the breath and nothing else, among other things.

If someone is being overwhelmed, they don't have to focus on many things at once. They can compartmentalize the objects of their focus and gradually expand the scope of their mindfulness as they practice more often and have more experience with it. Part of it is kind of analogous to muscle memory, whereby after a while, one simply knows how to assume that "mental posture" of mindfulness and doesn't need to exert a lot of effort and risk being overwhelmed in order to be mindful of multiple things at the same time.

I like the analogy.

How long after beginning your meditation practices did it take to start 'feeling' those muscles?

One of the ways to do this is to switch what one is focusing on depending on where they are and what they are doing. For instance, if someone walks into, say, a grocery store, they can be mindful by noting what they can smell, see, and hear, without getting lost in their own thoughts. If they're walking, they can do the same and also be especially aware of their surroundings. Ditto for driving.

That's a game I've used with the kids to keep them aware of their surroundings.

On the other hand, if someone finds themselves getting angry or losing patience, that can be a good time to be mindful of the changes in their emotions and to anchor themselves using their breath, a hand movement (more on that below), etc.

Have you used the practice of mudras or other hand movements personally?

 

[JustGeorge]

Continued.

Let's take the feeling of being overwhelmed as an example: let's assume that someone is feeling strongly overwhelmed, perhaps to a point bordering on panicking at an extreme end. Like other emotions, it has a "half-life," which means that if not suppressed or dwelled on, it will usually take its time and dissipate. One of the ways in which mindfulness can help many people with weathering it until it passes is a therapeutic skill called anchoring. This is not some pseudoscientific or armchair-psychology approach; it's part of ACT, which is also an evidence-based therapeutic approach.





The article further describes the skill and explains what it is as well as how to employ it:

Dropping Anchor; an ACT skill | Flourish Mindfully — Flourish Mindfully

Use dropping anchor when you're in the middle of an emotional storm; including an anxiety attack, a panic attack, flash backs, and chronic pain.

www.flourishmindfully.com.au

The description goes further, but I have limited the amount of text I quoted in accordance with Rules 4 and 7.

This is what I was referring to when I mentioned the hand movement, but different people use all sorts of different anchors that they find effective and suitable for them. Focusing on the breath is one of those, as is mindfulness of sensory input. Another is moving any part of the body. Another and particularly well-known example is the half-smile, which is one of the skills I was taught in DBT (and Thich Nhat Hanh also discussed it in The Miracle of Mindfulness).

Ah yes! I remember talking about that one.

For me, my anchors are a reminder that I'm grounded in the present and can take action, which means that I'm in control at this very moment. They don't have to be extraordinary feats or extreme movements (like, say, deadlifting very heavy weights, or running for miles, although if those things work well for someone else, then that's good too!); they only have to signal control and regulation within the present.

At control... what does that mean to you?

Since the half-smile and willing hands (both of which I learned about via DBT) are relevant to this conversation, here's an excerpt about both:

Half-Smiling & Willing Hands | DBT Center of Orange County

DBT skills come in many varieties. Some of them take advantage of our mind-body connection to help us regulate emotions. Two examples of this are the skills Half-Smile and Willing Hands, which come from the Distress Tolerance module. These skills can be very effective in increasing our...

www.dbtcenteroc.com

(Maybe these skills could even be useful while browsing or reading posts on RF and other forums! )

If we all practiced the half smile while posting on RF, I wonder if we'd notice any difference..

It depends on what I intend to do: If I want to observe my thoughts, for example, I often prefer to sit still or lie down somewhere quiet and dimly light, although I have also learned to meditate in noisier environments (which is pretty much a necessary skill to learn given that I live in a big, highly populated city with a massive amount of noise pollution). If I want to meditate on my surroundings and focus on sensory input during the session, I don't have a specific preference for quieter settings.

For me, any meditation session usually involves uninterrupted focus, though. It's true that one can meditate for just 10 minutes a day and see some results, but I strongly prefer to meditate for longer. My usual is anywhere from an hour to two hours a day, and I find that near bedtime is one of the most suitable times for me to do it.

Wow! That's quite a duration. How long has it taken you to work up to that?

I think that varies from person to person. I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, it mainly involves observation of my feelings and thoughts toward certain people and objects, identifying why I'm attached to them, and then gradually dislodging the reasons for the attachment whether through meditation on why they don't justify the attachment or on other reasons that attachment itself is unhelpful (e.g., impermanence, the suffering that attachment could lead to, the negative effects attachment could have on one's inner peace, etc.).

What, if any, affect have you found this has on your relationships?

From religious to irreligious? About a year and a half, but they have changed since I became irreligious too, such as by going from anti-religious to not being so.

I love how you stay open to change(maybe from your open hands?).

A lot of my views, whether religious or otherwise, have changed over the years, and I consider openness to new evidence and arguments to be essential to a healthy worldview. The day I stop being open to learning is the day I become intellectually and personally ossified.

I fully agree.

I have encountered that assumption a lot too, both from theists and atheists. I think it's because belief in spirits, demons, etc., is usually correlated with religious belief, so the idea is that if someone rejects the core beliefs of a religion (e.g., that a god exists), then they must also reject all other parts thereof. There's also the fact that the two most popular religions in the world are Abrahamic, so their concepts of spirits, demons, the "supernatural," etc., often dominate conversations about those subjects and, again, anyone who doesn't believe in one of those religions is assumed to also not believe in spirits or the like.

It can sometimes be stressful to be surrounded long term with people who have such a different worldview. How have you coped with this?

I know some atheists who believe in djinn/unseen entities (whether benevolent, neutral, or malevolent), though, and I'm highly open to the idea that they exist (as part of the natural world, as I said earlier).

What are some of your favorite parts of the natural world?

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Do you have a favourite ancient Egyptian god/dess?

 

[Debater Slayer]

How do you stay disciplined in your work, when you were in school studying, meditating 1-2 hours a day, and everything else while maintaining a social life? Do you ever burn out from it all?

I have had procrastination issues since childhood, so developing discipline when it comes to school and work has been a major challenge for me. I have gotten better at it by following specific steps when focusing on a task:

• Minimizing distractions and staying away from most of them. For example, I tend to keep my phone in another room when working on something on my PC, and I have "no-phone" times during the day when I don't touch my phone at all until I have finished the day's work.

• Relegating all thoughts, like ones about pending obligations and deadlines, to the background when I need to focus on something else. In my experience, this can be extremely difficult to do, especially when what you're setting aside is a source of stress. My previous therapist told me that one's head doesn't need to be free of worries or even distress in order for them to be able to focus and get work done, which has stuck with me since and proven to be an immensely helpful insight.

• Keeping in mind that sometimes you will just have to modify your plans for the day if, for example, you can't finish what you wanted to finish. Sometimes you will have to leave it for the time being and come back to it with a clearer head, and sometimes you will have to cancel or delay other plans (e.g., going outside) in order to finish what you're doing.

As for meditation, it hasn't been an issue because I usually do it in bed, the shower, etc., which are times when I'm not doing anything else anyway. Plus I think of it as an essential part of my daily routine because it is one of the main components of my therapy, so making time for it is just as important for me as making time for work and studying. If anything, it allows me to focus better on other things.

My social activities usually happen on weekends, and again, they're important for me to make time for because I feel drained when I don't hang out with people at least once or twice a week—the burnout in this case can happen when I don't hang out with people for extended periods. I have had to cancel going out before in order to stay home and finish school or work stuff, but that thankfully doesn't happen often. I just try my best to manage my time so that I don't end up in that situation except rarely.

And yes, I do experience burnout sometimes, especially when it comes to deadlines. I have always struggled with those, although I have gotten much better at managing them this year. I'm still working on improving further in that regard, though.

What are some noticeable changes meditation has had on you? How long did it take to start noticing these changes?

It has definitely made me feel a lot calmer in general, although I have never been a particularly angry person anyway. Still, I think the effects have been noticeable, at least going by comments I have gotten from others. Even on RF, I think some changes may be noticeable if you compare my posts now to many of my posts from a few or several years ago.

Another thing it has helped with a lot has been with fostering composure while dealing with major difficulties. It feels deeply relieving to know that I can gain a considerable measure of satisfaction and calm from something I can do anywhere, on my own, and for free to boot.

I don't remember exactly how long it took until I started noticing changes after learning to meditate, and perhaps that's because I can't think of any changes it has produced that haven't been gradual. I would say that a breakthrough point was in early 2023, though, as that was when I was able to withdraw from medication (per my psychiatrist's guidance, of course) and no longer have debilitating distress on a persistent basis.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Here's my question: what makes you genuinely happy?

Oh... That's a great question! It's also kinda hard to answer, because there are a lot of things I could list here. I think the main one would be quality time with family and close friends, though. I rarely feel as happy, content, and comfortable as when I spend time with either doing something we both enjoy, even if it's as simple as having a conversation.

 

[Debater Slayer]

That's interesting. There wouldn't be much point in developing other therapies if they all worked for everyone!

Yep, exactly!

How long after beginning your meditation practices did it take to start 'feeling' those muscles?

I think after about a year of consistent practice, and by "consistent" I mean daily practice. It becomes noticeable when you find yourself adjusting your "mental posture" without actively having to think about how to do so; the practices just become ingrained at that point.

That's a game I've used with the kids to keep them aware of their surroundings.

That's great! How do they respond to it, usually?

Have you used the practice of mudras or other hand movements personally?

Yes, frequently. The one I use the most is the Anjali Mudra, but sometimes just touching something and feeling its texture, for example, can be effective as a grounding technique.

 

[Debater Slayer]

At control... what does that mean to you?

It primarily means that I have the capacity to "move"—take action—and that I possess use of my faculties, which means that I can tackle and work to change anything that is causing discomfort, distress, or any emotion that can induce suffering. When I move my hand, I can use it to type on my keyboard and post this response, and I can do work, take a shower, or do many other things that are beneficial for me and others. Moving one's hand (or performing any similar grounding exercise, really) can be a good reminder of that.

If we all practiced the half smile while posting on RF, I wonder if we'd notice any difference..

That's an interesting thought. I definitely think it would make a difference!

Wow! That's quite a duration. How long has it taken you to work up to that?

A few years. I used to meditate less frequently, and when I did meditate, I usually meditated for shorter periods than that.

What, if any, affect have you found this has on your relationships?

It has made direct communication a lot easier for me, especially because I can directly communicate with people with the realization that we're either compatible with each other and can talk through issues or we're incompatible and would best go our separate ways. Avoidance doesn't solve anything—and I learned that the hard way after dealing with an avoidant person and telling myself that perhaps things could work out even if we didn't talk about any problems and set them aside.

I have several close friendships, all of which have involved direct communication and been consistent for a few years or more. The lack of attachment has contributed to this, although it is definitely not the only factor—long-term relationships require reciprocity and mutual effort, after all.

I love how you stay open to change(maybe from your open hands?).

I try my best! I would say that has served me quite well over the years.

I fully agree.

It can sometimes be stressful to be surrounded long term with people who have such a different worldview. How have you coped with this?

I have yet to find any definition of free will that I see as coherent or sustainable under scrutiny, and I also believe that people's beliefs are primarily a product of material conditions and circumstances such as upbringing, socioeconomic conditions, one's life experiences, what ideas one is exposed to, etc. If I hadn't learned the English language or joined RF, my beliefs would have almost certainly been different. If I had been born in poverty and grown up illiterate, the same applies. If I had severe social anxiety, a learning disability, or even a different skin color, I would have had different experiences and, consequently, different beliefs.

From a strictly logical standpoint, being upset that people have specific different beliefs seems to me more or less the same as being upset that the sun rises in the east or that lions are carnivores rather than herbivores. The very constitution of human nature is such that different beliefs are inevitable—whether or not some of them are harmful, untenable, etc.

Still, it can be stressful and upsetting to deal with the effects of certain beliefs, but I regard the existence of the beliefs themselves as simply a fact of life. That makes it far easier to process being surrounded by them.

What are some of your favorite parts of the natural world?

Cats!

Okay, aside from cats, I think trees are magnificent, especially ones that grow to be a century or older. I have stood next to a 150-year-old tree recently, and seeing the sheer size of it and thinking about how its existence had spanned so many major historical events was awe-inspiring. It may not be a sapient form of life (as far as we know, anyway), but I find it quite humbling and important to remember that, while many people believe that this world was created specifically for humans, there are so many other lifeforms that are both older and more beneficial for other species than humans tend to be.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Do you have a favourite ancient Egyptian god/dess?

Not really, although all of my keychains have been scarabs for almost a decade now; I quite like Khepri.

I also like Bastet, Hathor, and Horus, among others. I find the symbolism of ancient Egyptian deities fascinating in general.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Also, sorry to everyone who asked questions for taking a while to reply here. I have been getting busier lately.

 

[JustGeorge]

Also, sorry to everyone who asked questions for taking a while to reply here. I have been getting busier lately.

Life happens!

 

[JustGeorge]

I think after about a year of consistent practice, and by "consistent" I mean daily practice. It becomes noticeable when you find yourself adjusting your "mental posture" without actively having to think about how to do so; the practices just become ingrained at that point.

How did you find the motivation to stick with it?

That's great! How do they respond to it, usually?

Provided we're not in emergency state, they respond pretty well! Its fun, and it keeps them from running into things.

Yes, frequently. The one I use the most is the Anjali Mudra, but sometimes just touching something and feeling its texture, for example, can be effective as a grounding technique.

I just tried it to see... yes, I can notice an instant change. Subtle, but there.

I've heard petting animals is grounding... do you suspect that may be why?

(And good for the animal, too!)

It primarily means that I have the capacity to "move"—take action—and that I possess use of my faculties, which means that I can tackle and work to change anything that is causing discomfort, distress, or any emotion that can induce suffering. When I move my hand, I can use it to type on my keyboard and post this response, and I can do work, take a shower, or do many other things that are beneficial for me and others. Moving one's hand (or performing any similar grounding exercise, really) can be a good reminder of that.

Yes, I suppose we have 'control' more than we think... Just keep moving forward...

It has made direct communication a lot easier for me, especially because I can directly communicate with people with the realization that we're either compatible with each other and can talk through issues or we're incompatible and would best go our separate ways. Avoidance doesn't solve anything—and I learned that the hard way after dealing with an avoidant person and telling myself that perhaps things could work out even if we didn't talk about any problems and set them aside.

You are a very direct(but compassionate) speaker, and I appreciate that about you.

I have several close friendships, all of which have involved direct communication and been consistent for a few years or more. The lack of attachment has contributed to this, although it is definitely not the only factor—long-term relationships require reciprocity and mutual effort, after all.

Do you find your closest friends also practice this? How do they feel about your views?

I have yet to find any definition of free will that I see as coherent or sustainable under scrutiny, and I also believe that people's beliefs are primarily a product of material conditions and circumstances such as upbringing, socioeconomic conditions, one's life experiences, what ideas one is exposed to, etc. If I hadn't learned the English language or joined RF, my beliefs would have almost certainly been different. If I had been born in poverty and grown up illiterate, the same applies. If I had severe social anxiety, a learning disability, or even a different skin color, I would have had different experiences and, consequently, different beliefs.

What circumstances were you born into that you are grateful for? Which would you might wish to have been different?

From a strictly logical standpoint, being upset that people have specific different beliefs seems to me more or less the same as being upset that the sun rises in the east or that lions are carnivores rather than herbivores. The very constitution of human nature is such that different beliefs are inevitable—whether or not some of them are harmful, untenable, etc.

When someone has a harmful belief, how would you handle that? I assume from your name, Debater Slayer, that you do try to change the minds of others at times... how do you balance it all out?

Still, it can be stressful and upsetting to deal with the effects of certain beliefs, but I regard the existence of the beliefs themselves as simply a fact of life. That makes it far easier to process being surrounded by them.



Cats!

There simply is no better!

Okay, aside from cats, I think trees are magnificent, especially ones that grow to be a century or older. I have stood next to a 150-year-old tree recently, and seeing the sheer size of it and thinking about how its existence had spanned so many major historical events was awe-inspiring. It may not be a sapient form of life (as far as we know, anyway), but I find it quite humbling and important to remember that, while many people believe that this world was created specifically for humans, there are so many other lifeforms that are both older and more beneficial for other species than humans tend to be.

Humanity's just a small piece in a larger picture, it seems to me.