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Investigating Bahaullah's Book of Iqan

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
So it is the "key" to understanding the ancient scriptures then, not the entirety of the scriptures, that is contained in the Iqan.
It is the key to understand whatever has been revealed before also. When we think about it, everything is claimed to be in this Book in the condensed form. If a topic or a teaching is not found to be explained in the book, then, the claim of Bahaullah would be false. My intention is more about discovering this. It means, Bahaullah must have been aware of the all teachings or symbolic expressions, so, He could explain them in this Book.
What might be noteworthy is, for example in this Book which one may think is only to defend the Bab, Bahaullah talks about showing kindness to animals!



So, following on from my comment in reply to Adrian above, what it really is is a re-interpretation of scriptural symbolism. So why can't Baha'u'llah's own highly symbolic message be re-interpreted in a way that is more appropriate to the early 21st century as opposed to the late 19th? Certainly there are grave concerns for humanity about which humans were largely unaware back then - global NCD pandemics, climate change...etc. Can we not reinterpret the whole lot again to focus on healthy lifestyles and ecological responsibility? The "temple" as the body and the earth as the "courtyard" of the temple, and the "footstool" of the divine...and all that?
It is not that Bahaullah just reinterpreted the concepts, such as Resurrection, Rebirth, Return, and etc. He, in each case, through both logical arguments, as well as referring to past Scriptures, shows and proves, that, the literal interpretation which is current among most people has not been intended by the Author of previous scriptures, and then He shows, what the intended meaning has been! In another words He shows that, He is not introducing an invented interpretation, but, rather the interpretation that Bahaullah is explaining is the original intended interpretation by the Authors of Bible for example. He does that by providing evidences from old scriptures and religious traditions, as well as logical arguments.
 
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siti

Well-Known Member
Certainly the majority of examples are from the Quran, as would be expected for a work written to a Muslim trying to understand how his nephew could the Promised Qa'im.
Then why does he claim have condensed "all scriptures" into such a work? And why, with the exception of Sufi poetry and relatively few well-known passages from the gospels, does he so rarely quote from or cite directly any other scriptures? Does he ever, in any of his works quote directly from, say, Paul's letters or the Book of Revelation? (I honestly don't know the answer to that question, but I do know that the Gospels were more readily available in the Persian language than the rest of the NT).

Propitiary atonement is one exegesis amidst others that has the problems of most likely being pagan inspired and making God appear tyranical.
It is not "one exegesis" to Christians, it is the exegesis. And this is yet another example of how counterproductive Baha'i thinking is to interreligious harmony. You just summarily dismissed an absolutely vital tenet of the faith of millions of Christians and - as far as they are concerned - blasphemed against God in the process - in one sentence.

The warning is inherent within the Gospel with the parable of the tares and wheat.
And how, exactly, do you know that it is propitiation that was inserted by the enemies of faith and not this parable - perhaps the devil deliberately sowed this weed parable to confuse the minds of people and doubt the love of God in sending his own Son to pay the price for our sins? (John 3:16; Matthew 26:28). Of course the answer is you don't know. And neither did Baha'u'llah - he chose to go with the Qur'an on this and no wonder - what further need would there be of other Messiahs to lead us to the life that "knoweth no death" if the price for the remission of sins had already been paid? Its no use agreeing with Jesus or Muhammad about the finality of their respective Messianic missions if one aspires to Messianic status oneself.

In every age and century, the purpose of the Prophets of God and their chosen ones hath been no other but to affirm the spiritual significance of the terms “life,” “resurrection,” and “judgment.” If one will ponder but for a while this utterance of ‘Alí in his heart, one will surely discover all mysteries hidden in the terms “grave,” “tomb,” “ṣiraṭ,” “paradise” and “hell.” But oh! how strange and pitiful! Behold, all the people are imprisoned within the tomb of self, and lie buried beneath the nethermost depths of worldly desire! Wert thou to attain to but a dewdrop of the crystal waters of divine knowledge, thou wouldst readily realize that true life is not the life of the flesh but the life of the spirit. For the life of the flesh is common to both men and animals, whereas the life of the spirit is possessed only by the pure in heart who have quaffed from the ocean of faith and partaken of the fruit of certitude. This life knoweth no death, and this existence is crowned by immortality. Even as it hath been said: “He who is a true believer liveth both in this world and in the world to come.
This is confused - it mixes up realities with symbols and reifies notions of 'spiritual' aspects of reality - like 'self' for example. Its just confused IMO. And who said that people who have 'impure' hearts, lack faith and elevate reasonable doubt above credulous 'certitude' do not have a 'life of the spirit' - or animals for that matter? This all departs significantly from other scriptural traditions - not to mention common sense.

The unique feature of the Baha'i revelation is the Covenant that establishes both authoritative interpretation through Abdu'l-Baha and the Guardian as well as the capacity to resolves difficult problems through the Universal House of Justice. The legitimate appointment of successors to Moses, Christ, and Muhammad through Joshua, Peter and Ali and the provisions to define their scope of authority was insufficient to prevent divisions and schism. The authority of Baha'i succession and its role and functions is derived from the pen of Baha'u'llah Himself.
Indeed - the pen of 19th century Persian man. Just as Joshua, Peter and Ali (assuming that they all actually existed at all) derived their authority from the humans who preceded them. And please don't pretend that after Shoghi Effendi (or even before) there was no division. That just isn't true - is it?
 

siti

Well-Known Member
If a topic or a teaching is not found to be explained in the book, then, the claim of Bahaullah would be false.
Well then it is false. We already proved that with respect to the central biblical teaching of propitiatory atonement - it simply is not there in Iqan.

He, in each case, through both logical arguments, as well as referring to past Scriptures, shows and proves, that, the literal interpretation which is current among most people has not been intended by the Author of previous scriptures, and then He shows, what the intended meaning has been!
Again, a bold, sweeping statement with no supporting evidence. He did not refer to 'past scriptures' and explain them, he reinterpreted the Qur'an.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
And who said that people who have 'impure' hearts, lack faith and elevate reasonable doubt above credulous 'certitude' do not have a 'life of the spirit' - or animals for that matter? This all departs significantly from other scriptural traditions - not to mention common sense.

It is understood when we consider the levels of Spirit.

There is the Vegatable Spirit and Animal Spirit to which we share when we are born of the Human Spirit.

The Human spirit is at the end of darkness and beginning of light. All these levels of spirit contain Gods' Virtues in varying degrees. The human Spirit in this reality has the potential of all virtue, that is what it means to be at the end of darkness and beginning of light.

To bring the potential out requires us to connect with the next level of Spirit which is the 'Spirit of Faith'. This is the medium we use when we take up the offer of Christ to be Born Again. When we take up that offer, we can then connect with the Holy Spirit and bring all the potential from us.

This takes effort and sacrafice of the animal self for the good of all.

This concept will be found in all scriptures from God, explained in various different ways, suited to the audience of the time.

Regards Tony
 
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siti

Well-Known Member
This is the medium we use when we take up the offer of Christ to be Born Again.
Good Lord! Now who is invoking...
...one exegesis amidst others that has the problems of most likely being pagan inspired
...born again indeed! The fact is, all these "rebirth", "reincarnation" and "resurrection" themes have "pagan" origins. Look up Mithras, Horus and sol invictus if you don't believe me. So what? If you are dismissing "propitiation" as a "God-dishonouring" pagan teaching then so are all the others. And if that's the case, then what really is the ultimate source of Baha'u'llah's teaching on these matters?
 
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TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Good Lord! Now who is invoking......born again indeed! The fact is, all these "rebirth", "reincarnation" and "resurrection" themes have "pagan" origins. Look up Mithras, Horus and sol invictus if you don't believe me. So what? If you are dismissing "propitiation" as a "God-dishonouring" pagan teaching then so are all the others. And if that's the case, then what really is the ultimate source of Baha'u'llah's teaching on these matters?

One could also choose to see what it is offering in a spiritual sense.

This body we have, has one life.

Regards Tony
 

siti

Well-Known Member
This body we have, has one life.
Indeed! And the best response to that is 'get over it' and then 'get on with it' - Ecclesiastes 9:10 - whatever may or may not happen thereafter is anyone's guess and I honestly don't see why Baha'u'llah's guess would be better than any other.

But the origin of all the concepts of the hereafter he mentions...'resurrection', 'reincarnation' etc. etc. are surely 'pagan'. So is Baha'u'llah also embracing paganism? I mean its great if he is - but @adrian009 seemed to be speaking very disparagingly of paganism - in fact he used the term as a pejorative to describe the corrupting influence of the Bible's message of salvation by faith in the sin-atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. I'm wondering what he really meant by "pagan" - because in one sentence in his last post he denounced the beliefs of both pagans and Christians - on some definitions that wouldn't leave very many would it - Jews, Muslims and Baha'is is about all - but then he also got rid of the Jewish succession and Muslim succession a couple of sentences later. So much for unity.
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Then why does he claim have condensed "all scriptures" into such a work? And why, with the exception of Sufi poetry and relatively few well-known passages from the gospels, does he so rarely quote from or cite directly any other scriptures? Does he ever, in any of his works quote directly from, say, Paul's letters or the Book of Revelation? (I honestly don't know the answer to that question, but I do know that the Gospels were more readily available in the Persian language than the rest of the NT).

It doesn't matter if he is writing to a Christian, Jew, Hindu or Buddhist providing examples from their scriptures. What does matter is the principles outlined are universal and transends any single religious tradition.

As you will appreciate most Muslims believe the original Gospel of Jesus was lost and instead the Christians have a false Gospel in their possession. Baha'u'llah addressed this in the Kitib-i-Iqan and implicitly, through not explicitly gives legitamcy to the entire New Testament. The issue of establishing the authenticity of the Gospels takes precedence over elaborating on Paul's letters or the book of revelation.

Baha'u'llah elaborates on page 89 of the Iqan:

We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and living Providence! How could God, when once the daystar of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also? What would be left to that people to cling to from the setting of the daystar of Jesus until the rise of the sun of the Muhammadan Dispensation

Baha'u'llah says specifically of the Iqan itself:

the things We have already mentioned suffice the world and all that is therein. In fact, all the Scriptures, and the mysteries thereof are condensed into this brief account. So much so that were a person to ponder it a while in his heart, he would discover from all that hath been said the mysteries of the Words of God, and would apprehend the meaning of whatever hath been manifested by that ideal King. (Íqán 237, emphasis added)

Were you to ponder, but for a while, these utterances in your heart, you would surely find the portals of understanding unlocked before your face, and would behold all knowledge and mysteries thereof unveiled before your eyes. (ibid. 52, emphasis added, cf. 19)


The Station of the Kitab-i-Iqan

My understanding is that Baha'u'llah provides the door to being able to understand all scriptures through the Kitab-i-Iqan. Through reflection and meditation we can acquire a profound understanding of whatever sacred writings we choose. It requires effort on our part. The Kitab-i-Iqan is not a prescriptive and exhaustive list of every religious teaching, rather a means of acquiring an in depth knowledge of all the main religious teachings.

In response to your specific question about Baha'u'llah quoting directly from either the book of Revelation or the Apostle Paul, I'm not aware of one single verse. I suspect He didn't, once again on account of most of the early Baha'is being from an Islamic background. There are of course many references from both Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi to both the book of revelation and the Apostle Paul.

It is not "one exegesis" to Christians, it is the exegesis. And this is yet another example of how counterproductive Baha'i thinking is to interreligious harmony. You just summarily dismissed an absolutely vital tenet of the faith of millions of Christians and - as far as they are concerned - blasphemed against God in the process - in one sentence.

I agree the doctrine concerning propitiatory atonement is a fundamental and core belief to many Christians. Further many of those Christians would be single minded in their belief that there is just one way and one way only to view this doctrine. This will be one amongst a number of percieved core Christian beliefs that will differ from Baha'i beliefs. One criticism of the Baha'i Faith is that it leaves Christianity and other religions too theologically gutted.

What is the Baha'i faith?

Baha'is should look to build points of agreements and common ground with other faiths. We should not go out of our way to emphasise differences and certainly avoid offending. However when asked, Baha'is should be clear and honest about points of disagreement and be prepared to engage in discussion if need be, but agree to disagree when such discussions become fruitless.

And how, exactly, do you know that it is propitiation that was inserted by the enemies of faith and not this parable - perhaps the devil deliberately sowed this weed parable to confuse the minds of people and doubt the love of God in sending his own Son to pay the price for our sins? (John 3:16; Matthew 26:28). Of course the answer is you don't know. And neither did Baha'u'llah - he chose to go with the Qur'an on this and no wonder - what further need would there be of other Messiahs to lead us to the life that "knoweth no death" if the price for the remission of sins had already been paid? Its no use agreeing with Jesus or Muhammad about the finality of their respective Messianic missions if one aspires to Messianic status oneself.

Baha'is don't believe in a literal Satan. When a handful of Jews chose to follow Jesus rather than the beliefs and traditions of their ancestors sacrifices needed to be made. Some of what they had formerly believed was either not true or no longer relevant. Jesus put in very succintly when He said you can not put new wine into old wineskins (Mark 2:18-22). The old must die to give way to new life. Exactly the same principle applies for those who accept Muhammad or Baha'u'llah.

Having been formerly Christian before becoming a Baha'i, the problems with Christian theology were clear enough long before I heard about the Baha'i Faith. I believe we all need to pray, reflect and meditate and live in accordance with our highest values and beliefs.

This is confused - it mixes up realities with symbols and reifies notions of 'spiritual' aspects of reality - like 'self' for example. Its just confused IMO. And who said that people who have 'impure' hearts, lack faith and elevate reasonable doubt above credulous 'certitude' do not have a 'life of the spirit' - or animals for that matter? This all departs significantly from other scriptural traditions - not to mention common sense.

It makes perfect sense to me, along with the rest of the Kitab-i-Iqan. I have no problem with a significant departure from traditional Christianity and see it as necessary. We each need to read the reality of our own lives and do what we believe is right. What works for each one of us is very different and I whole heartedly accept our differences.

Indeed - the pen of 19th century Persian man. Just as Joshua, Peter and Ali (assuming that they all actually existed at all) derived their authority from the humans who preceded them. And please don't pretend that after Shoghi Effendi (or even before) there was no division. That just isn't true - is it?

I don't deny the history of my Faith and conflict that arose with succession of leadership from the Bab, Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice. I believe Moses, Christ, Muhammad and Baha'u'llah were all real people who brought to humanity a genuine Revelation from God. I appreciate you see them all as either no more than human or even myth. Diversity of belief is fine by me. At the end of the day, God if He exists, judges us all.
 

siti

Well-Known Member
The Kitab-i-Iqan is not a prescriptive and exhaustive list of every religious teaching, rather a means of acquiring an in depth knowledge of all the main religious teachings.
Apart from the "in depth" bit, that is exactly what I have been saying - it does not contain "all scripture" in condensed form but rather contains all the religious ideas that Baha'u'llah had learned about and thought were important.

In response to you specific question about Baha'u'llah quoting directly from either the book of Revelation or the Apostle Paul, I'm not aware of one single verse. I suspect He didn't, once again on account of most of the early Baha'is being from an Islamic background.
Well it can hardly be said to contain "all scripture" then can it? And in any case, how do you square that claim with this:
Baha'u'llah... implicitly... gives legitamcy to the entire New Testament.

I have no problem with a significant departure from traditional Christianityand see it as necessary
Me too - the difference being that I have not pretended otherwise.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Well it can hardly be said to contain "all scripture" then can it? And in any case, how do you square that claim with this:

Baha'u'llah affirmed the Gospel was protected by God and was true.

In the Gospels, Jesus appointed Peter as His successor (Matthew 16:18-19).

Peter affirmed the importance of Paul (2 Peter 3:15-18).

For a more detailed understanding of a Baha'i perspective, this letter is very useful.

Apostle Paul, a "False Teacher"?
 

siti

Well-Known Member
Baha'u'llah affirmed the Gospel was protected by God and was true.
So all this is true:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." - John 3:16

"The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." - John 1:29

"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." - Matthew 1:21

"For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many." - Mark 10:45

"...this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." - Matthew 26:28

In the Gospels, Jesus appointed Peter as His successor (Matthew 16:18-19).
And this:

"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed." 1 Peter 2:24

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust ..." 1 Peter 3:18

Peter affirmed the importance of Paul (2 Peter 3:15-18).
And this:

"For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ." - Romans 5:17

[URL='https://www.religiousforums.com/bible/galatians/3:13/']
[/URL]"Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree" - Galatians 3:13

I just don't see how you can have it both ways. If the Gospel is true, then propitiatory atonement is true. No question.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
So all this is true:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." - John 3:16

"The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." - John 1:29

"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." - Matthew 1:21

"For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many." - Mark 10:45

"...this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." - Matthew 26:28

And this:

"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed." 1 Peter 2:24

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust ..." 1 Peter 3:18

And this:

"For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ." - Romans 5:17

"Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree" - Galatians 3:13

I just don't see how you can have it both ways. If the Gospel is true, then propitiatory atonement is true. No question.

Abdu'l-Baha spoke of the meaning of sacrifice when in America.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promulgation of Universal Peace, Pages 449-452
 

siti

Well-Known Member
Abdu'l-Baha spoke of the meaning of sacrifice when in America.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promulgation of Universal Peace, Pages 449-452
But how - in view of the very obvious scriptural basis for such a doctrine - can anybody at one and the same time declare the Gospel to be true and its principal message to be unworthy of even a child's thinking? The Baha'i position on this is disingenuous and duplicitous as far as I can see. You want to say you believe in the Gospel and yet deny its principal doctrine.
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
But how - in view of the very obvious scriptural basis for such a doctrine - can anybody at one and the same time declare the Gospel to be true and its principle message to be unworthy of even a child's thinking? The Baha'i position on this is disingenuous and duplicitous as far as I can see. You want to say you believe in the Gospel and yet deny its principal doctrine.

We see the verses you provided in post #91 differently. There is clearly symbolism in phrases like 'Son of God' and 'Lamb of God' that has references to Hebrew scripture. Jesus spoke in parables to convey spiritual truth and to distinguish the faithful from the insincere (Matthew 13:10-17). The Gospel writers and Apostles took a similar approach. A central message of the Kitab-i-Iqan is look beyond literal meanings to discern the spiritual reality.

You can insist the verses in the New Testament have one meaning only but Baha'u'llah teaches in the Kitab-i-Iqan some verses have one and seventy meanings.

It is evident unto thee that the Birds of Heaven and Doves of Eternity speak a twofold language. One language, the outward language, is devoid of allusions, is unconcealed and unveiled; that it may be a guiding lamp and a beaconing light whereby wayfarers may attain the heights of holiness, and seekers may advance into the realm of eternal reunion. Such are the unveiled traditions and the evident verses already mentioned. The other language is veiled and concealed, so that whatever lieth hidden in the heart of the malevolent may be made manifest and their innermost being be disclosed. Thus hath Ṣádiq, son of Muḥammad, spoken: “God verily will test them and sift them.” This is the divine standard, this is the Touchstone of God, wherewith He proveth His servants. None apprehendeth the meaning of these utterances except them whose hearts are assured, whose souls have found favour with God, and whose minds are detached from all else but Him. In such utterances, the literal meaning, as generally understood by the people, is not what hath been intended. Thus it is recorded: “Every knowledge hath seventy meanings, of which one only is known amongst the people. And when the Qá’im shall arise, He shall reveal unto men all that which remaineth.” He also saith: “We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain.”

Kitab-i-Iqan p254-255

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 221-257

Perhaps that is what you mean by duplicitous and disingenuous?
 

siti

Well-Known Member
Thus hath Ṣádiq, son of Muḥammad, spoken: God verily will test them and sift them.

He also saith: “We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain.”

Do you know where these quotes come from? I mean can you identify Baha'u'llah's source for these quotes? You have underlined them presumably indicating you believe them to be important. I'm just wondering if you know the original source he is quoting (or rather misquoting) from? I'll give you a clue - he mentions his source on p.254.
 
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TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
I'm just wondering if you know the original source he is quoting (or rather misquoting) from?

That is another thing they could never get Baha'u'llah on. They always found that Baha'u'llah's quotes were correct. It was them that were not aware there was such a quote.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain.”

Do you know where these quotes come from? I mean can you identify Baha'u'llah's source for these quotes? You have underlined them presumably indicating you believe them to be important. I'm just wondering if you know the original source he is quoting (or rather misquoting) from? I'll give you a clue - he mentions his source on p.284.

I know one source was from Hebrew times;

The "Seventy Faces" of Torah

Regards Tony
 

siti

Well-Known Member
That is another thing they could never get Baha'u'llah on. They always found that Baha'u'llah's quotes were correct. It was them that were not aware there was such a quote.
Oh really! Well that's that then. So where did the two quotes @adrian009 highlighted come from?

I know one source was from Hebrew times
Maybe 'they' couldn't get Baha'u'llah but they certainly got Tony. Of course 70 is a number of special mystical significance and you might very well be correct in the sense that there probably is some connection between the ancient Hebrew numerology and the much later Shi'i that is the more direct source for Baha'u'llah's "quotes".

Anyway - he was "quoting" from the Bihar al anwar a Hadith (collection of Islamic traditions) written by the Twelver Shi'i cleric Mohammad Baqer Majlesi in the late 17th century - as he clearly indicates on p. 254

"...In the “Bihár” it is recorded: “In our Qá’im there shall be four signs..."

As far as I can make out, the original quote from which Baha'u'llah gets:

“We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain”

indicates that "one word [of the Prophet] can have 70 meanings (or aspects)" I cannot find a passage that emphasizes "explaining" as Baha'u'llah has apparently rendered his quotation (but as a non-Persian reader I'm dependent on Shoghi's translation of Baha'u'llah's quoted version so maybe that's not accurate?).

Anyway, it is very interesting nonetheless that Baha'u'llah bases his closing argument on fairly recently compiled collections of Twelver Shi'i Islamic tradition and not on the direct revelation of the Prophet himself. Maybe that fact too is open to "one and seventy" interpretations? It certainly shows that Baha'u'llah was deeply familiar with the Islamic scholarship of his era. He picked those quotes (either imperfectly remembered - or deliberately manipulated to suit his argument) from a book that was apparently published in a 110 volumes.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Oh really! Well that's that then. So where did the two quotes @adrian009 highlighted come from?

Maybe 'they' couldn't get Baha'u'llah but they certainly got Tony. Of course 70 is a number of special mystical significance and you might very well be correct in the sense that there probably is some connection between the ancient Hebrew numerology and the much later Shi'i that is the more direct source for Baha'u'llah's "quotes".

Anyway - he was "quoting" from the Bihar al anwar a Hadith (collection of Islamic traditions) written by the Twelver Shi'i cleric Mohammad Baqer Majlesi in the late 17th century - as he clearly indicates on p. 254

"...In the “Bihár” it is recorded: “In our Qá’im there shall be four signs..."

As far as I can make out, the original quote from which Baha'u'llah gets:

“We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain”

indicates that "one word [of the Prophet] can have 70 meanings (or aspects)" I cannot find a passage that emphasizes "explaining" as Baha'u'llah has apparently rendered his quotation (but as a non-Persian reader I'm dependent on Shoghi's translation of Baha'u'llah's quoted version so maybe that's not accurate?).

Anyway, it is very interesting nonetheless that Baha'u'llah bases his closing argument on fairly recently compiled collections of Twelver Shi'i Islamic tradition and not on the direct revelation of the Prophet himself. Maybe that fact too is open to "one and seventy" interpretations? It certainly shows that Baha'u'llah was deeply familiar with the Islamic scholarship of his era. He picked those quotes (either imperfectly remembered - or deliberately manipulated to suit his argument) from a book that was apparently published in a 110 volumes.

The way I see it, the Katab-i-iqan covers all past religious truths. Is that not the aim of the OP for us to consider and discover?

Thus it is not restricted to one source. The point of this verse is that there are many spiritual and other meanings within each passage of the religuous texts.

Another thing is that I see that they also traverse many worlds, not just this material world.

Regards Tony
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Do you know where these quotes come from? I mean can you identify Baha'u'llah's source for these quotes? You have underlined them presumably indicating you believe them to be important. I'm just wondering if you know the original source he is quoting (or rather misquoting) from? I'll give you a clue - he mentions his source on p.254.

I choose those passages from the Kitab-i-Iqan as they aligned nicely with what Jesus was quoted as saying in Matthew 13:10-17. I had considered the obvious meaning of His words first, a little like your approach to the Biblical verses you believe support Propitiatory atonement.
 
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