Inviting Yugo: Genocide Lawsuit, ruling on Monday

[Djamila]

I'm curious about your views on this subject, Yugo, before the final verdict is delivered on Monday.

As you know, Bosnia and Herzegovina has filed a lawsuit against Serbia with the World Court. The lawsuit basically charges, albeit in fancy legal language, the Serbian state with committing genocide against Bosnia and Herzegovina.

If found guilty, Serbia could and probably would be required to pay billions of dollars in damages. The cost of rebuilding Sarajevo alone has been estimated at 14 billion dollars and that's just infrastructure, it doesn't even include the lawsuits that will piggy back on this verdict - if Serbia is found guilty - seeking compensation for the families of the victims. Multiply that 1000 or more times and you'll have some idea what damages Bosnia and Herzegovina as a whole could force Serbia to pay.

Monday's ruling is expected to be a conditional ruling - "Yes, Serbia is guilty - but...". The International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia has already ruled that genocide was committed against Bosnian Muslims and has implicated the Serbian government and military in this regard. Thus, most analysts seem to believe it's rather unlikely that the court will return a "not guilty" verdict.

The conditional ruling will probably specify what sort of damages Bosnia and Herzegovina can collect, since full damages would push Serbia back to the dark ages - it would completely bankrupt the country.

The views about the lawsuit in Bosnia and Herzegovina are very mixed. You have, of course, Bosnian Serb nationalists who supported the genocide they still claim never happened and still do today. These people, and their representative political parties, are calling it persecution, not prosecution, because they suffered so much during the war and never hurt a fly and on and on and on... their opinions should be expected, and come as a surprise to absolutely no one.

What is interesting is that moderate Serbs in Sarajevo and Tuzla are also against the lawsuit. Their representatives say it's simply not helpful at this time - there's absolutely no good that will come out of it, everyone is still dead and Serbia won't be able to pay enough damages to make the common people happy, and overall it's just stirring up trouble.

You can find a few Bosniaks and Bosnian Croats who feel the same way, but they're a very, very small minority. Both peoples overwhelmingly support the lawsuit.

The Jewish community has officially come out in support of the lawsuit as well.

So... what do you hope will be the final outcome on Monday?

 

[Yugo]

Interesting, well, I am on the fence here.

I agree that Serbia committed crimes of genocide in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and there should be punishment, but as moderates in Tuzla and Sarajevo say, how would this punishment help our country at the moment? I believe it would just stir up trouble, and worsen our already fragile relationship with Serbia. I can imagine Bosnian Serb nationalists will use this to their advantage, coming up with a bunch of propaganda campaigns about ‘how they are all out to get us’. A part of me also feels for the Serbs of Serbia! Why should the population as a whole have to suffer because of the actions of a few men? My personal outlook on this subject revolves around how this would help us improve as a country and move on. So, if you can give me some reasons on how this would actually help, then I am 100% for it. I also feel this is more about the symbolism of the issue, and at getting back at Serbia for what they had done. I feel the only thing that can come out of it would be some kind of closer for Bosniaks and Croats, and most probably a rise in nationalism with the Bosnian Serbs. We all know Serbia would never be able to repay Bosnia for all of the damages it has caused during the war. I also feel that if Serbia is charged, than Croatia should be as well. I would also charge the Islamic countries that sent over mudjahadeen soldiers, but that is too far fetched. Although the amount of damage they had inflicted on Bosnia was not as great, I still believe that the victims of both Croatia’s and the Mudjahadeen’s aggression on Bosnia should also be repaid.

 

[Djamila]

Interesting, well, I am on the fence here.

Me too, though I'm about to fall over onto you-know-which side.

I agree that Serbia committed crimes of genocide in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and there should be punishment, but as moderates in Tuzla and Sarajevo say, how would this punishment help our country at the moment? I believe it would just stir up trouble, and worsen our already fragile relationship with Serbia.

I agree that it would - it already has, to a large extent. That I'm not worried about, though. I'm intelligent enought to realize that a prosperous and successful Serbia is better for us all in the Balkans, but I'm also not nearly forgiving enough to give a s**t about Serbia just yet - lol.

I can imagine Bosnian Serb nationalists will use this to their advantage, coming up with a bunch of propaganda campaigns about ‘how they are all out to get us’.

They already have, as well. The thing is, though - while this does worry and concern me more than any response within Serbia proper - these nationalists already feel this way. They use anything to pat each other on the back and justify a genocide in retrospect, so just by existing we're already offending them. So what can you do? We won't lie down and die, so it's really useless to be worrying about how they're going to abuse any situations that might arise.

A part of me also feels for the Serbs of Serbia! Why should the population as a whole have to suffer because of the actions of a few men?

Part of me does, part of me doesn't. I can never forget that the more Serbian media revealed about what was being done in Slovenia, Croatia, and Bosnia - the more popular Slobodan Milosevic became with the Serbian public. That's enough for me to simply write the whole country off at times. It really, really, really bothers me.

My personal outlook on this subject revolves around how this would help us improve as a country and move on. So, if you can give me some reasons on how this would actually help, then I am 100% for it. I also feel this is more about the symbolism of the issue, and at getting back at Serbia for what they had done.

I agree, it's probably just about the symbolism - but that means a great deal to me. The first guilty verdict handed down as a result of the genocide made me so happy.

I also feel that if Serbia is charged, than Croatia should be as well. I would also charge the Islamic countries that sent over mudjahadeen soldiers, but that is too far fetched.

Croatia could and probably should be charged by Croatian Serbs. As a Bosniak, I wouldn't support any charges against Croatia on behalf of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I realize that is very offensive to Bosniaks in areas like Mostar, where the Croatian Army was the one carrying out the genocide, but I think prosecuting individuals in these regions is enough. Croatia, overall as a state, helped Bosnia and Herzegovina - it even liberated most of the Bosanska Krajina from Serbian occupation.

Serbia, though, did no good in Bosnia and Herzegovina at all. Their only contribution was the genocide and they probably killed more Bosnian Serb civilians in Sarajevo alone than Bosniaks and Bosnian Croats forces did combined.

As for the mujahideen, it would be difficult to charge a particular country - we don't even know where half these men came from - but charging the individuals should've been done a long time ago. Bosnian Muslims took the wrong route with these proceedings. We rightly showed the massive scale and systematic character of Serbia's genocide against us, but we swept "what little" we did to the side, didn't acknowledge it.

We could've charged guilty parties in 1995 and gotten all that out of the way. Even though what we did matters greatly to the families affected by it, it's basically a footnote of the overall war and could've and should've been dealt with immediately.

 

[Yugo]

They already have, as well. The thing is, though - while this does worry and concern me more than any response within Serbia proper - these nationalists already feel this way. They use anything to pat each other on the back and justify a genocide in retrospect, so just by existing we're already offending them. So what can you do? We won't lie down and die, so it's really useless to be worrying about how they're going to abuse any situations that might arise.

I don't know, maybe because you live there, you have a better since of what is going on, and are immune to some acts of nationalism. But I can't help every time I visit Bosnia seeing signs saying "welcome to Republika Srpska", or Islamic flags in Zenica, it all makes me very nervous about the stability of the country. I feel like even though I can sit with a Muslim in a cafe half the night, nothing can prevent from a war braking up, and we all so quickly becoming enemies again.

Part of me does, part of me doesn't. I can never forget that the more Serbian media revealed about what was being done in Slovenia, Croatia, and Bosnia - the more popular Slobodan Milosevic became with the Serbian public. That's enough for me to simply write the whole country off at times. It really, really, really bothers me.

Maybe it's the fact that I am a Bosnian Serb, but I do feel for them. Even if I bash them non stop with friends, say things even a Bosniak woundn't, when it comes down to it, I can't help but feel connected in some way to them.

And also for the Serbian moderates, it must be extremely hard for them. With Kosovo, this lawsuit, economy is down the drain.. It's like you are hopeless in making anything good happen for your country, Bosnia isn't that far off ether.

Croatia could and probably should be charged by Croatian Serbs. As a Bosniak, I wouldn't support any charges against Croatia on behalf of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I realize that is very offensive to Bosniaks in areas like Mostar, where the Croatian Army was the one carrying out the genocide, but I think prosecuting individuals in these regions is enough. Croatia, overall as a state, helped Bosnia and Herzegovina - it even liberated most of the Bosanska Krajina from Serbian occupation.

Serbia, though, did no good in Bosnia and Herzegovina at all. Their only contribution was the genocide and they probably killed more Bosnian Serb civilians in Sarajevo alone than Bosniaks and Bosnian Croats forces did combined.

As for the mujahideen, it would be difficult to charge a particular country - we don't even know where half these men came from - but charging the individuals should've been done a long time ago. Bosnian Muslims took the wrong route with these proceedings. We rightly showed the massive scale and systematic character of Serbia's genocide against us, but we swept "what little" we did to the side, didn't acknowledge it.

We could've charged guilty parties in 1995 and gotten all that out of the way. Even though what we did matters greatly to the families affected by it, it's basically a footnote of the overall war and could've and should've been dealt with immediately.

I guess it depends where you are from. A Bosniak from Bihac would love Croatia, but a Bosniak from Mostar would want to burn anything with the want Croat in it.. As for the Mudjahadeens, it's strange now that it's 10 years after the war.. They already have families, and have made lives for themselves in Bosnia. You know, I wouldn't be half as worried about them, if they were to just keep to themselves, but radical Islam in Bosnia just plain disgusts me. I really can't help but feel annoyed at seeing one more Saudi Mosque go up.. To me, they are just as bad as the Serb, and Croat nationalists.

 

[Djamila]

As for the Mudjahadeens, it's strange now that it's 10 years after the war.. They already have families, and have made lives for themselves in Bosnia. You know, I wouldn't be half as worried about them, if they were to just keep to themselves, but radical Islam in Bosnia just plain disgusts me. I really can't help but feel annoyed at seeing one more Saudi Mosque go up.. To me, they are just as bad as the Serb, and Croat nationalists.

Well, most were deported after the war (don't be flattered, it was entirely a response to their responsibility for the murders of Muslim women who'd married non-Muslims, destruction of traditional Bosnian aspects of mosque decor, and also pressure from Europe that led to their deportation - not any crimes committed by them against non-Muslims). So, those that were allowed to stay were those who had married Bosnian women (most of whom were underage war orphans at the time they were married) - there was no loophole available to deport these people.

They bother me, but not as much anymore. They're so insular and they have so little contact with the outside world that I don't really care what they're doing. It's like fundamentalist sects in the United States, the polygamist sect and others. You never see them or have to deal with them so it's just... who cares?

What bothers me is the radical Muslims that have joined Bosnian society - like that idiot Imam at Careva Mosque - Jusuf whatever. I'd probably strangle him, to death, given an opportunity. I also feel they have no place in Bosnia, I just place the blame for their being here on the war, and on Serbia. Such people would never have been here if not for the war, and they certainly would never have had followers. The war created the conditions they need to exist.

But I'm sure they'll be just a memory eventually. Even though nationalism is increasing among our youth, religious extremism is not. A Bosnian Serb teenager is far more likely to be nationalist today than a teenager of the last generation, but he's far less likely to be religious. It's the same with Muslims. So I have no real fear of radical Islam becoming a dominant force here - but I just wish we didn't need Arab funding to rebuild what Serbia destroyed. If that funding wasn't required by us, you'd never see these hideous, enormous mosques or funding for things like Vehabije.

 

[Yugo]

What bothers me is the radical Muslims that have joined Bosnian society - like that idiot Imam at Careva Mosque - Jusuf whatever. I'd probably strangle him, to death, given an opportunity. I also feel they have no place in Bosnia, I just place the blame for their being here on the war, and on Serbia. Such people would never have been here if not for the war, and they certainly would never have had followers. The war created the conditions they need to exist.

Hehehe, didn't you once say that the Careva Dzamija was your favorite Mosque in Sarajevo?

I keep hearing about this situation with Wahhabis. To tell you the truth I know nothing of them, but I am pretty sure they are radical if they are in the news so much? I read in an article that the Careva Mosque locked their doors to them? Can you explain this to me?

And here's another question, maybe a bit silly, but did Bosniaks refer to each other as Bosniaks before the war? More, or less did you know you were Bosniak? Or did you guys consider each other Bosnian Muslims, and how come you weren't offended by that term then?

 

[Djamila]

Hehehe, didn't you once say that the Careva Dzamija was your favorite Mosque in Sarajevo?

I keep hearing about this situation with Wahhabis. To tell you the truth I know nothing of them, but I am pretty sure they are radical if they are in the news so much? I read in an article that the Careva Mosque locked their doors to them? Can you explain this to me?

And here's another question, maybe a bit silly, but did Bosniaks refer to each other as Bosniaks before the war? More, or less did you know you were Bosniak? Or did you guys consider each other Bosnian Muslims, and how come you weren't offended by that term then?

Yes, there's a big mess going on with Careva Mosque and the Vehabije - don't worry, I'll let everyone know with a thread once it's sorted, hahaha.

I was never and still am not offended by the term "Bosnian Muslim" or "Muslim" to reference my nationality. We did use the term Bosniak before the war - there was even a news magazine called "Bosniak" with news relevant to Muslims.

It was used mainly by Turks and in dealing with Turks, though. Turks have always called us "Bosnak". They adopted that term when they first conquered this region - their records contain references such as, "The people living in what is called Bosna call themselves Bosnak and their language Bosnjacki" - so it's obviously a very old term, dating to the period of the Bosnian Church.

 

[2nd2N1in12nd]

So... what do you hope will be the final outcome on Monday?

Hi DJamila, from DJ Jewpiter,
I know that everything Is God's will, and that people are not here to judge.
Everything came through God,
" Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made
that has been made. "
including end of individual life, or death ;

" I am the LORD, and there is no other;
apart from me there is no God.
I will strengthen you,
though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun
to the place of its setting
men may know there is none besides me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other.
I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things. "




So, If you could, try to relax, and don't get emotional :angel2:



much love



Jewpiter from YuPiter

 

[Yugo]

The UN court has ruled that Serbia did not commit genocide in Bosnia!

I am pleased with the UNs decision. Serbia would have had to go through an even greater struggle if the courts had gone in Bosnia's favour. Making a country and nation suffer for years to come for souly a symbolic reason is not fair. All sides suffered greatly in this war - the only people who benefited were the politicians. So if anything, they are the ones to blame. These politicians came from all religious backrounds, and countries in the Former Yugoslavia - not just Serbia.

How are reactions in Sarajevo, MIla?

Here's an article describing the current situation in the region:

UN court rules Serbia did not commit genocide in Bosnia

By Vesna Peric Zimonjic in Belgrade

Published: 27 February 2007



The sigh of relief in Serbia was almost audible as the International Court of Justice cleared the country of genocide in Bosnia. But the court further ruled that Serbia had failed to prevent genocide and had seriously violated international obligations by not handing over individuals accused of the crime. The three-hour session of the court, the UN's highest judicial body, was broadcast on several Serbian TV channels. The country feared being pronounced a genocidal nation, in the first such case against a state, and risked having to pay billions of dollars in war damages if the ruling had gone in Bosnia's favour.
The court president, Judge Rosalyn Higgins, said that the court defined only the massacre of more than 8,000 Muslim men and boys in Srebrenica in July 1995 as an act of genocide. Other mass killings in Bosnia Herzegovina at the time of 1992-95 war were not.
More than 100,000 people died in the war, most of them non-Serbs. "The court finds that Serbia has violated the obligation to prevent genocide in respect of genocide that occurred in Srebrenica ... Serbian leaders should have made the best effort within their power to try and prevent the tragic events then taking shape."
The court ordered Serbia to immediately hand over for a war crimes trial General Ratko Mladic, who led the Bosnian Serb Army attack against Srebrenica.
But if many in Serbia were heartened by the ruling, leading international human rights activists pointed out that genocide was confirmed to have occurred in Bosnia.
"The ICJ has ruled that genocide did occur and that fact should not be obscured or lost in the context of court's failure to find direct responsibility by Serbia," said Richard Dicker, the international justice director of Human Rights Watch.
"I know it's going to be disappointing and troubling for families of victims not only in Srebrenica, but all over Bosnia. But I hope this stiffens the resolve of those in Serbia to see that Ratko Mladic and [Bosnian Serb leader] Radovan Karadzic are arrested and surrendered for fair trial in the war crimes tribunal at The Hague," Mr Dicker said.
Serbia is reluctant to hand over the pair, fearing nationalist outrage. This is especially true for the government of the outgoing Prime Minister Vojislav Kostunica.
In his first reaction, the reform-oriented President Boris Tadic said: "There remains the serious obligation of Serbia to co-operate immediately with the international war crimes tribunal.
"The ICJ decision is the court epilogue for the policy of Slobodan Milosevic. Whoever counters the co-operation with the war crimes tribunal from now on, can be described as working directly against Serbia, its future and citizens."
Yesterday's final and mandatory rulingcame 14 years after Bosnia took the case to the court. It accused Serbia, led by Milosevic, of genocide by methodical extermination of non-Serbs, and through systematic expulsions, rape and ethnic cleansing.Milosevic died last year at the war crimes tribunal detention unit, without sentence being pronounced on him after five years of trial. He fell from power in 2000.
The ruling is unlikely to help reconcile Bosnia-Herzegovina, which was divided into into Muslim-Croat and Serb entities under the 1995 Dayton peace accords. A large part of the public expected the court to find in favour of Sarajevo.
"I don't know the reason for such a decision," said Zeljko Komsic, a Croat member of collective presidency. "We must respect the ruling, but I will know what to teach my children," he added.
Milorad Dodik, the Prime Minister of Bosnia's Serbs, criticised the ruling: "It was a heinous crime in Srebrenica and not genocide".
The ruling
This is an edited version of the court's ruling:
"Serbia has not committed genocide, through its organs or persons whose acts engage its responsibility under customary international law;
"Serbia has not conspired to commit genocide, nor incited the commission of genocide;
"Serbia has not been complicit in genocide, in violation of its obligations under the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide;
"Serbia has violated the obligation to prevent genocide, under the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, in respect of the genocide that occurred in Srebrenica in July 1995;
"Serbia has violated its obligations under the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide by having failed to transfer Ratko Mladic, indicted for genocide and complicity in genocide, for trial by the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, and thus having failed fully to co-operate with that tribunal;
"Serbia shall immediately take effective steps to ensure full compliance with its obligation ... to transfer individuals accused of genocide or any of those other acts for trial by the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, and to co-operate fully with that tribunal;
"The case is not one in which an order for payment of compensation, or ... a direction to provide assurances

 

[Djamila]

The response in Sarajevo is outrage that the Judges were not provided with certain pieces of evidence - such as audio tapes of then-Serbian President Slobodan Milosevic approving a request from the Serbian Army to "liquidate" the detainees at 23 concentration camps around Prijedor - and video evidence of Serbian soldiers participating in the Srebrenica genocide.

There's also some relief that the court held Serbia responsible for not preventing the genocide, but there is outrage that they weren't at the very least found guilty of complicity in genocide. A lot of broken hearts, 7 suicides of Srebrenica war widows confirmed so far.

I'm not very pleased. It's common knowledge among us that Serbia was the driving force behind what happened here. Bosnia did not happen in a vacuum - the same people attacked Slovenia, Croatia, and Kosovo - and it wasn't "independent Bosnian Serbs" in any of these cases.

 

[Djamila]

From the article you posted:

"I don't know the reason for such a decision," said Zeljko Komsic, a Croat member of collective presidency. "We must respect the ruling, but I will know what to teach my children," he added.

He might be Roman Catholic, but he's summarized the Muslim view dead-on as well.

 

[2nd2N1in12nd]

The response in Sarajevo is outrage that the Judges were not provided with certain pieces of evidence - such as audio tapes of then-Serbian President Slobodan Milosevic approving a request from the Serbian Army to "liquidate" the detainees at 23 concentration camps around Prijedor - and video evidence of Serbian soldiers participating in the Srebrenica genocide.

There's also some relief that the court held Serbia responsible for not preventing the genocide, but there is outrage that they weren't at the very least found guilty of complicity in genocide. A lot of broken hearts, 7 suicides of Srebrenica war widows confirmed so far.

I'm not very pleased. It's common knowledge among us that Serbia was the driving force behind what happened here. Bosnia did not happen in a vacuum - the same people attacked Slovenia, Croatia, and Kosovo - and it wasn't "independent Bosnian Serbs" in any of these cases.

Slobodan Milosevic is dead, Bosnia did not exist when massacre have happened, therefore you can't blame Serbia for nationality of people that have murdered
Srebrenica muslims. Try to understand life, and respect Man made Laws.
You have your desired Bosnian state, and there is no Country in the world, created
without Casualties. I feel the pain of all Families that have lost loved Ones, and
Bosnian Muslims are sure Not the only ones. So do us all favor, and don't try to make It look that way.

much love

Jewpiter

 

[2nd2N1in12nd]

From the article you posted:

"I don't know the reason for such a decision," said Zeljko Komsic, a Croat member of collective presidency. "We must respect the ruling, but I will know what to teach my children," he added.

He might be Roman Catholic, but he's summarized the Muslim view dead-on as well.

He will teach His children what ever Law in Bosnia will allow Him to teach.
Same as Schools in Germany and Austria teach about Adolf Hitler.
Unfortunately very few Schools teach the truth, that EVERYTHING is God's will.
That view Is going to be ALL Religion dead-on view, all Religions will be dead.

much love

Jewpiter

 

[2nd2N1in12nd]

I'm not very pleased. It's common knowledge among us that Serbia was the driving force behind what happened here. Bosnia did not happen in a vacuum - the same people attacked Slovenia, Croatia, and Kosovo - and it wasn't "independent Bosnian Serbs" in any of these cases.

It's obvious that you're so filled with hatred, that you can't see strait.
You call entire Country of Serbia driving force, behind something that only few people
are responsible for ?
Bosnian Serbs are sweet, but entire Country of Serbia is evil.
You got nerv to mention Kosovo ?

much love

Jewpiter

 

[Djamila]

Bosnia did not exist when massacre have happened

Bosnia and Herzegovina entered Yugoslavia as a Republic, and left as a Republic. We declared our independence from Yugoslavia in 1992. The Srebrenica genocide took place in 1995.

Beyond that, the Charter of Ban Kulin makes Bosnia the oldest, surviving South Slavic state in the Balkans.

 

[Djamila]

It's obvious that you're so filled with hatred, that you can't see strait. You call entire Country of Serbia driving force, behind something that only few people are responsible for ?

Well, when in the span of a decade you have:

Serbia vs Slovenia
Serbia vs Croatia
Serbia vs Bosnia and Herzegovina
Serbia vs Kosovo

It's not hard to see where the problem originates from.

You got nerv to mention Kosovo?

Why not? It's not our fault you lost in Croatia and Kosovo - you gambled on getting it all, and lost it all instead. It still doesn't change the fact your soldiers marched in first.

much love

Likewise.

 

[James the Persian]

Well, when in the span of a decade you have:

Serbia vs Slovenia
Serbia vs Croatia
Serbia vs Bosnia and Herzegovina
Serbia vs Kosovo

It's not hard to see where the problem originates from.

That's not accurate and you know it. What you had was Slovenia seceding from Yugoslavia, and Croatia the same. Then you had Bosnia follow suit which resulted in a civil war between three different ethnicities, each of which was supported by outsiders (ethnic Serbs by Yugoslavia - Serbia did not exist as such), Bosniaks by various Muslim states and Croats by Croatia. All three sides committed attrocities and Croats as well as Serbs have been found guilty of genocide. Then you have the Kosovo situation which cannot possibly be described as Serbia against Kosovo as Kosovo is part of Serbia. That's like saying the US against California. It's nonsense. There was a guerilla campaign by Muslim Albanians against Serbians and others who were either non-Albanian or non-Muslim and this was responded to with the typical lack of humanity shown by Milosevic. If you want to blame anyone, blame Milosevic and his cronies because his opportunistic nationalism certainly was a major factor in all the conflicts but don't blame modern Serbia. One wonders exactly how a state, as opposed to a government, can even be guilty of anything. It is the Nazis, for instance, and not Germany that were guilty of the holocaust. Clearly the current regime in Serbia is not guilty of something that happened 12 years ago.

James

 

[2nd2N1in12nd]

Bosnia and Herzegovina entered Yugoslavia as a Republic, and left as a Republic. We declared our independence from Yugoslavia in 1992. The Srebrenica genocide took place in 1995.

Beyond that, the Charter of Ban Kulin makes Bosnia the oldest, surviving South Slavic state in the Balkans.

This is further statement that shows how much you know about where do you live now.
It was Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenians that dissapear from existence on
29.11.1943. and after WWII, Churchill have created Tito and " His " Federation,
( and Bosnia and Herzegovina was born, as Republic, It did not exist, before WWII )
including Constitutional Law from ' 74 in which none of the Republics DOES not
have right for Independence.
British Business that people like you call politics, do not care about Constitutional Laws.
Kulin Ban, girl puuuhhhlease
As I told you, enjoy your life in your Phantom Country while you can, leave Biz alone.
And just watch what Is going to happen' to Kosovo and Metohija visitors called
Shiptars, waving your " Independent Kosovo " Flag. :drool:

Allahu Akbar !

Jewpiter

 

[Djamila]

It was Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenians that dissapear from existence on 29.11.1943. and after WWII, Churchill have created Tito and "His " Federation"

The Kingdom of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes was shortest political manifestation on our territory in history - hardly a reason to deny Bosnia ever existed.

The Medieval Kingdom of Bosnia, with a first constitution more 1,000 years old, started what is today central Bosnia and grew to become the most powerful South Slavic Kingdom in the Balkans by the 1300s.

We had our own Bosnian Church, our own Bosancica Alphabet, and our own Royal Family with their own Lillium Bosniacum emblem. The people, in all manner of surviving records, referred to themselves as Dobri Bosnjani (Good Bosnians).

This is the Medieval Kingdom of Bosnia at various stages of its power:

​

And this is the charter of Ban Kulin, a trade agreement between Bosnia and Dubrovnik that is effectively the oldest South Slavic constitution in the Balkans. It explains the structure of the Bosnian Church and government:

From the Medieval Kingdom of Bosnia, we come to the Ottoman Province of Bosnia - which grew beyond the borders of Medieval Bosnia to encompass much of what is today Croatia and Serbia:

​

Following the disintegration of the Ottoman Empire, Bosnia and Herzegovina became a republic within the Austro-Hungarian Empire - with more or less the same borders it has today. This map, for example, from 1877 - far before 1943, so you really should study Balkan history a little more because you claim one of Europe's old surviving states never existed.

​

I could go on, and on, and on - I absolutely love studying my country's history - but this is more than enough to blow anything you've said clean out of the water.​

 

[Djamila]

That's not accurate and you know it.

I wouldn't make the claim if I did not believe it to be accurate. Ask Yugo, I've known him for years, and my views on this have not changed.

What you had was Slovenia seceding from Yugoslavia, and Croatia the same.

As did Bosnia and Herzegovina, and all three were attacked by the Serb-dominated Yugoslav People's Army. In areas where there were Serbian minorities, the Army's weaponry was handed over the paramilitary groups - this resulted in the majority of Croatian territory being occupied and ethnically cleansed of its non-Serb population. A Republika Srpska Krajina (Republic of Serbian Frontier) was established on Croatian territory and existed until 1995/1996.

Then you had Bosnia follow suit which resulted in a civil war between three different ethnicities, each of which was supported by outsiders (ethnic Serbs by Yugoslavia - Serbia did not exist as such), Bosniaks by various Muslim states and Croats by Croatia.

What happened in Bosnia and Herzegovina was no different to me than what happened in Croatia. The first massacres in Bosnia were in Bosnian Croat villages during the war against Croatia, before Bosnia even declared independence. The first soldiers to attack Bosnian Muslims - in northeast Bosnia - did so after crossing over the border from the Serbian state created in Croatia. In my mind, it's all the same war.

All three sides committed attrocities and Croats as well as Serbs have been found guilty of genocide.

I've never heard of Croatia or Croats being found guilty of genocide. In fact, the only proven incident of genocide I know of in the whole of the former Yugoslavia happened in Srebrenica - a massacre of Bosnian Muslims.

Then you have the Kosovo situation which cannot possibly be described as Serbia against Kosovo as Kosovo is part of Serbia. That's like saying the US against California. It's nonsense.

It's not nonsense. If the United States suddenly decided to kill or expell all Hispanics in California, you could say it was a war of the United States against California. These people may not be white Americans, just as the Kosovar Albanians are not Serbs, but they're still the people of Kosovo and no one has a right to kill and expell them.

There was a guerilla campaign by Muslim Albanians against Serbians and others who were either non-Albanian or non-Muslim and this was responded to with the typical lack of humanity shown by Milosevic.

It was more than a lack of humanity, it was ethnic cleansing. And I'm no great friend of the Kosovar Albanians - what they did to Bosniaks living in Kosovo was no different than what they did to Serbs, but to compare that to the Serbian campaign that millions from their homes is foolish - especially when we see the same Serbian campaigns attempted in Slovenia, and carried out in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina.

If you want to blame anyone, blame Milosevic and his cronies because his opportunistic nationalism certainly was a major factor in all the conflicts but don't blame modern Serbia. One wonders exactly how a state, as opposed to a government, can even be guilty of anything. It is the Nazis, for instance, and not Germany that were guilty of the holocaust. Clearly the current regime in Serbia is not guilty of something that happened 12 years ago.

James

I agree, in theory, but the current regime in Serbia is not all that different than it was 12 years ago. The most powerful party is just run from jail cells in the Hague instead of mansions in Belgrade.