Iran Launches Missiles Into Israel

[amatuerscholar]

Of course you do.
You don't accept the UN definition of "genocide",
& Israel's acts that comport with it.
So I dismiss your support for Israel, & screed
against Palestinians.

I do accept their definition of genocide, and it's why I linked to further discussion they had about that definition. I've only used the UN as a source when talking about genocide.

I fully accept their definition of genocide. You don't seem to though, because you again ignored the material I linked, from the UN, that actually discussed what the definition really was.

The fact is, by UN definition, Israel is not committing a genocide. There is no clear intent here that you can point to. Intent, as per the UN, is the hardest factor to prove. Intent has to be clear. And the fact that Palestinians are not being systematically targeted, but many are living without no fear in Israel, shows that there is no clear intent here.

And my position here is much more complicated than support Israel and not Palestine. Because often, views should be much more complicated than black and white, which you're choosing here. But again, I get it. You were shown to be clearly wrong, so you have to misrepresent my side.

 

[Revoltingest]

I fully accept their definition of genocide.

It appears otherwise.

 

[amatuerscholar]

It appears otherwise.

Show me where I disagree with their definition. I cited the UN in my argument as to why this isn't genocide. So show me where I went wrong.

 

[Revoltingest]

Show me where I disagree with their definition.

The problem lies in your non-recognition
of the minimum criteria being fulfilled.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Israel has attempted to live in peace with their neighbors. They have backed a two-state plan. The Arab world, going all the way back to the 30s, has flat out rejected this idea..

Ah! So you now agree that they have no intent on living in peace with their neighbours..
..and that includes BEFORE Oct. 7

That means that they seek domination over surrounding nations.
..as we know, they already have domination over Palestinians.

..we've seen Arab states attempt to destroy Israel in multiple wars.

When those wars didn't succeed, what did the Arab world do? They abandoned the Palestinians. During the War of 1948, Arab leaders encouraged Palestinians to leave their homes and land, promising that they would win the war and all of Palestine would be theirs. And after they lost, leaving these Palestinians as refugees, did the Arab world help? Did they take them in? No, they blamed Israel.

..and trawling through the backlog helps Israelis and Palestinians right now, how exactly?
You see, you are assuming that the international community should have no voice, just like Trump.

That is very arrogant, and short-sighted. It's such an attitude that is likely to cause nuclear catastrophe.

After it became clear to the Arab world that they were not going to be able to wipe Israel off the planet, they abandoned the Palestinians almost completely. And this led to the rise of terrorist organization seizing political control over Palestinian Arabs..

That is what you perceive .. I perceive differently.
I see that the G7 countries (victors in WW's) have a great responsibility.
It's not just a case of "telling the world how it is", it involves justice, and diplomacy.

Ignoring global opinion, and believing that you can "rule the world", will only work for so long.
A nation will make too many enemies like that .. call all your enemies "terrorists" if you must,
but eliminating (killing them all) resistance groups in foreign nations, will only cause more
radical groups to follow. What's the point of that?

You want to talk about Israel not wanting to live in peace with their neighbors, but yet the Hamas, the governing body of Palestine, has made it clear that their intent is to wipe Israel off the map. Yet you say nothing about that.

Did the PLO publicly state that as their aim? No.
Divide and rule (Gaza v. West Bank) has backfired. Politically, they don't care.
It gives them the excuse they need to further their Zionist agenda.

I'm not saying Israel should carry on indefinitely, and if history tells us anything, they won't.

Maybe not .. but what about next time? Will we all have atomic-dust on our eggs for breakfast?
It really doesn't matter who's to blame, in that scenario .. so I suggest that the international community
tries harder to solve the Israeli-Palestinian problem.
i.e. the permanent occupation of the whole of Palestine by the Israelis.

..but will they? Will we have Trump arrogantly dismissing the UN, as a hopeless cause?

Time and time again they have succumbed to international pressure as they are labeled the aggressors, while everyone forgets what began this. Palestine wouldn't be in this situation if the Hamas hadn't launched an attack on October 7th, that not only killed people indiscriminately just because they were in Israel, but also sent out people to rape, kill, and kidnap women and children, in order to instill more fear.

I don't believe that.
I do believe that a significant 'terrorist' operation occurred by a group of "escaped prisoners",
whose real crime was and is to not have Jewish ancestors.

The attacks on civilian populations wouldn't be occurring if the Hamas weren't a bunch of cowards who hid behind those civilian populations, and used them as human shields.

Get a life .. our BBC correspondent, who has repeatedly reported from Israel and Gaza knows
that is bunkum.

I suppose you think that Mossad are also using their citizens as human-shields in Tel-Aviv.

 

[amatuerscholar]

The problem lies in your non-recognition
of the minimum criteria being fulfilled.

If you can't show me where I'm wrong, then there is no reason for me to suspect that I may be wrong. I'm not even sure what you mean here by minimum criteria, because there really isn't a minimum criteria. A number of things have to be shown, and one of those is intent. If you can't prove intent, by definition, it's not a genocide. The UN discusses this at length.

Ah! So you now agree that they have no intent on living in peace with their neighbours..
..and that includes BEFORE Oct. 7

That means that they seek domination over surrounding nations.
..as we know, they already have domination over Palestinians.

I never said they didn't have the intent of living in peace. You're purposely either misrepresenting what I'm saying, or you have a preconceived notion of my position and aren't actually listening. Everything you've said here is simply false.

..and trawling through the backlog helps Israelis and Palestinians right now, how exactly?
You see, you are assuming that the international community should have no voice, just like Trump

That is very arrogant, and short-sighted. It's such an attitude that is likely to cause nuclear catastrophe..

History is important. To make a judgement on what's happening now without understanding what led here is ignorant. And I'm not saying that the international community should have no voice. That's another baseless assumption you're making.

What's arrogant here is you thinking you know what I'm saying and thinking better than I do.

That is what you perceive .. I perceive differently.
I see that the G7 countries (victors in WW's) have a great responsibility.
It's not just a case of "telling the world how it is", it involves justice, and diplomacy.

Ignoring global opinion, and believing that you can "rule the world", will only work for so long.
A nation will make too many enemies like that .. call all your enemies "terrorists" if you must,
but eliminating (killing them all) resistance groups in foreign nations, will only cause more
radical groups to follow. What's the point of that?

This is why history is important. If you don't understand the history, or dismiss it as you did above, then you can't have a correct perception.

Are you suggesting the Hamas are not a terrorist organization? They definitely are. And they are one that seeks to eliminate Israel as a whole. You can't negotiate with that when there is no room to negotiate.

Did the PLO publicly state that as their aim? No.
Divide and rule (Gaza v. West Bank) has backfired. Politically, they don't care.
It gives them the excuse they need to further their Zionist agenda.

We aren't talking about the PLO. The Hamas were the ones I addressed. Me saying something about the Hamas doesn't mean I said something about the PLO. The PLO did outright reject a two-state solution though. The Palestinians could have had a state multiple times, but their leadership has rejected it. What do you suggest Israel do? Give up their country completely because the other side refuses to accept their right to exist?

Maybe not .. but what about next time? Will we all have atomic-dust on our eggs for breakfast?
It really doesn't matter who's to blame, in that scenario .. so I suggest that the international community
tries harder to solve the Israeli-Palestinian problem.
i.e. the permanent occupation of the whole of Palestine by the Israelis.

As long as the Hamas govern Palestine, there is no possibility of a long term solution. When you have one side, the Hamas, expressing the wish to eliminate the other side, and refusing to accept their right to basic existence, there can't be a long term solution.

..but will they? Will we have Trump arrogantly dismissing the UN, as a hopeless cause?

Who cares what Trump has to say?

I don't believe that.
I do believe that a significant 'terrorist' operation occurred by a group of "escaped prisoners",
whose real crime was and is to not have Jewish ancestors.

You don't believe that the Hamas launched an attack on October 7th? If you don't agree on that basic idea then there is no need to have a discussion.

Get a life .. our BBC correspondent, who has repeatedly reported from Israel and Gaza knows
that is bunkum.

I suppose you think that Mossad are also using their citizens as human-shields in Tel-Aviv.

Maybe learn a little bit of history, and try to have a reasonable conversation instead of making up what the other side thinks. I mean, most of your response is just making false claims about my views. If you can't do better, then you have no right to expect people to take your view seriously.

 

[Revoltingest]

If you can't show me where I'm wrong...

You don't accept what Israel is doing.
So there's no point offering it again.

 

[amatuerscholar]

You don't accept what Israel is doing.
So there's no point offering it again.

I acknowledge what Israel is doing. I don't agree it is genocide, as by definition, it isn't. Again, there is no clear intent. If there was, you'd be able to show that. But instead you linked to an article talking about possible relocation, which isn't genocide, and makes it clear genocide isn't the intent, as if you're committing genocide, you don't have to even think of relocating anyone as they are dead.

 

[Revoltingest]

I acknowledge what Israel is doing. I don't agree it is genocide...

Which is disagreement so fundamental
that I've nothing to add.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Are you suggesting the Hamas are not a terrorist organization? They definitely are..

They are an enemy of the US and Israel. They feel that radical action is necessary, because
the international community has not been able to resolve the plight of the Palestinians.

The IRA are/were an enemy of UK and also terrorists.
Fortunately, a political solution was attempted eventually, rather than continual slaughter by
British forces.

The Palestinians could have had a state multiple times, but their leadership has rejected it. What do you suggest Israel do? Give up their country completely because the other side refuses to accept their right to exist?

Work with the international community, rather than vetoing all UN resolutions.
Would that be in the interests of the US and Israel? No. They seem to think not.

As long as the Hamas govern Palestine, there is no possibility of a long term solution..

Then why did Israel promote Hamas, over the Palestinian authority?
We know why .. they knew that it was in their interests to cause division between them.

Maybe learn a little bit of history..

..so as to gain the moral highground, and blame one side or the other, so as to perpetuate war
in the Middle East? No thanks.

The US and Israel can win this war .. and that's why it's happening .. but the so-called "war on terror"
can only get worse.

We were all terrorists in the WW's .. hating each other, and bombing each other's cities. It's a
nonsense to claim nations you don't politically agree with are terrorists, and continually have
to "reshape" Muslim nations.
Eventually, we will all be terrorists once again. i.e. no nation will be secure

 

[amatuerscholar]

They are an enemy of the US and Israel. They feel that radical action is necessary, because
the international community has not been able to resolve the plight of the Palestinians.

The IRA are/were an enemy of UK and also terrorists.
Fortunately, a political solution was attempted eventually, rather than continual slaughter by
British forces.

There's a fundamental difference between the IRA and the Hamas. The IRA recognizes their enemies right to existence and isn't looking to eradicate them. The Hamas don't recognize Israel's right to exist, and has stated multiple times, and this was even in their charter, was intent on eliminating Israel as a whole (or genocide).

There is a massive difference between the two. The Hamas aren't giving Palestinians a chance to have their plight resolved.

Work with the international community, rather than vetoing all UN resolutions.
Would that be in the interests of the US and Israel? No. They seem to think not.

There have been many attempts at this. Yet, when a two-state solution has been presented, those representing the Palestinians, and I would say they have done so in bad faith and at the detriment of the Palestinians, have said no. We won't take anything besides the totality of Palestine, and for Israel to cease to exist. I don't know why you ignore this basic fact.

Then why did Israel promote Hamas, over the Palestinian authority?
We know why .. they knew that it was in their interests to cause division between them.

There was already division. Maybe they thought they could more easily defeat the Hamas if need be. And it's not like the Palestinian Authority wasn't also resorting to terrorist attacks. Not to mention that Palestinians in general distrusted the Palestinian Authority, and their downfall had been a long time coming. That and there was already new factions forming, which was dividing Palestine. So it's probably a lot more complicated than you're putting git.

..so as to gain the moral highground, and blame one side or the other, so as to perpetuate war
in the Middle East? No thanks.

The US and Israel can win this war .. and that's why it's happening .. but the so-called "war on terror"
can only get worse.

We were all terrorists in the WW's .. hating each other, and bombing each other's cities. It's a
nonsense to claim nations you don't politically agree with are terrorists, and continually have
to "reshape" Muslim nations.
Eventually, we will all be terrorists once again. i.e. no nation will be secure

The difference between you and me here is that you've taken one side completely, to the point you will ignore their faults. Now yes, in part, I side with Israel. I also side with the Palestinians. I'm against the Hamas. I don't blindly support Israel, I don't condone everything they are doing. And I look at the history of all of this in order to try to better understand what led to this moment.

Ignoring that history, and what the Hamas are claiming they want doesn't help anyone. Understanding helps greatly, and it keeps people from saying things like we were all terrorists in the WWs, because such a statement is simply incorrect and shows no real knowledge of what was occurring.

And I'm not claiming that nations that I don't agree with politically are terrorists. I'm saying the Hamas are terrorists as they commit terrorist attacks. I say they are terrorists as they fit the definition. Making up your own definitions for words doesn't work here.

 

[Kathryn]

Muslims vs. Islamists

Islamism is not a form of the Muslim faith or an expression of Muslim piety; it is, rather, a political ideology that strives to derive legitimacy from Islam.

www.washingtoninstitute.org

I think this is interesting.

 

[muhammad_isa]

There's a fundamental difference between the IRA and the Hamas. The IRA recognizes their enemies right to existence and isn't looking to eradicate them. The Hamas don't recognize Israel's right to exist, and has stated multiple times, and this was even in their charter, was intent on eliminating Israel as a whole (or genocide).

No, not genocide. Israel was declared a state by a bunch of immigrants, who were themselves terrorists.
It had the backing of the UN, but it was not the UN that declared it.

..but anyway, are you suggesting that if the Palestinians got the upper hand, that they would commit
a genocide?
They might .. they have been continually bombarded and humiliated for so long now..

It's disgraceful .. that people are oppressed continually for so long by Israel, supported by "great powers",
and Israel is behaving like a loose cannon.

The difference between you and me here is that you've taken one side completely, to the point you will ignore their faults. Now yes, in part, I side with Israel. I also side with the Palestinians. I'm against the Hamas. I don't blindly support Israel, I don't condone everything they are doing. And I look at the history of all of this in order to try to better understand what led to this moment.

I have not taken "one side completely".
I judge by what G-d has revealed. I believe that G-d is on the side of the oppressed .. just like He was
on the side of the children of Israel against Pharaoh.

What Israel is doing is not "self-defence" .. they did not need to flatten Gaza to the ground, and
continue doing so.
They are doing it because they can .. just like Pharaoh thought he was all powerful.

Understanding helps greatly, and it keeps people from saying things like we were all terrorists in the WWs, because such a statement is simply incorrect and shows no real knowledge of what was occurring.

There is no doubt in my mind that all parties in WWII were guilty of war crimes.
Yes, some more than others, I know.

I'm saying the Hamas are terrorists as they commit terrorist attacks..

Yes, yes .. but what Israel does through the IDF cannot be considered "terrorist", as they are a
legitimate army of a state you recognize, right?

 

[amatuerscholar]

No, not genocide. Israel was declared a state by a bunch of immigrants, who were themselves terrorists.
It had the backing of the UN, but it was not the UN that declared it.

There had been Jews living in Palestine for generations. The Jews who moved there in the late 1800s and early 1900s did so in order to escape death. It's really that simple. Are you proposing that they should have just stayed were they were so they could all have been killed? Because that was the option. More so, they moved to Palestine after having bought land from wealthy Palestinian Arabs. They settled there legally.

Now, I've already detailed this history more than enough, and you just ignore it, so I won't continue repeating it. But just because you don't like the history, just because you're ignorant of what actually happened, doesn't give you the right to make up your own history.

..but anyway, are you suggesting that if the Palestinians got the upper hand, that they would commit
a genocide?
They might .. they have been continually bombarded and humiliated for so long now..

It's disgraceful .. that people are oppressed continually for so long by Israel, supported by "great powers",
and Israel is behaving like a loose cannon.

I'm not saying Palestinians. I'm saying the Hamas, who in their charter stated just that. And if you look at history, the Arab world attempted such multiple times.

And here again, you ignore history in order to replace it with your own worldview.

I have not taken "one side completely".
I judge by what G-d has revealed. I believe that G-d is on the side of the oppressed .. just like He was
on the side of the children of Israel against Pharaoh.

You took one side as is apparent with your refusal to deal with any of the history, and instead simply demonizing Israel.

What Israel is doing is not "self-defence" .. they did not need to flatten Gaza to the ground, and
continue doing so.
They are doing it because they can .. just like Pharaoh thought he was all powerful.

I've never said Israel should be supported in everything they have done. I've consistently said that history should have an influence. If you want to look at people who thought they were all powerful, look at Egypt, who helped lead multiple attempts to eradicate Israel. But that doesn't factor into this for you because you'd rather make up your own history.

There is no doubt in my mind that all parties in WWII were guilty of war crimes.
Yes, some more than others, I know.

Being guilty of war crimes and being a terrorist are not the same. Again, making up your own definitions doesn't make it so.

Yes, yes .. but what Israel does through the IDF cannot be considered "terrorist", as they are a
legitimate army of a state you recognize, right?

So I'm done after this. You can respond if you want, but I won't carry on anymore. It's apparent that your side, those defending your side don't care about facts, definitions, or history, so it has become a waste of my time.

 

[muhammad_isa]

You took one side as is apparent with your refusal to deal with any of the history, and instead simply demonizing Israel.

History is all very well, but we need to address what is going on right now.

I've never said Israel should be supported in everything they have done. I've consistently said that history should have an influence. If you want to look at people who thought they were all powerful, look at Egypt, who helped lead multiple attempts to eradicate Israel. But that doesn't factor into this for you because you'd rather make up your own history.

You want to make it all about history, as it suits your agenda.

I don't live in Palestine/Israel, but it is very clear to me who are the oppressors RIGHT NOW!

Being guilty of war crimes and being a terrorist are not the same.

No .. they are not .. they are WORSE, when you consider just how much power and responsibility they have.

It's apparent that your side, those defending your side don't care about facts, definitions, or history, so it has become a waste of my time.

I care about facts .. if I saw Israel being treated like I see Gaza and Lebanon being treated right now,
I wouldn't be happy.
I don't like abuse of power. It's despicable.

 

[Godobeyer]

I think the last time Iran tried a missile barrage on Israel, most of the missiles were shot down by Israeli anti-missile defenses.

Some said Iron dome ran to shelters too .