Iranian rapper Toomaj Salehi was jailed after he called out the Islamic Republic. Now he's facing the death penalty (For debate)

[Revoltingest]

Well if the trail of correspondence is to be believed then in my view that would be because the Shah could no longer manage to keep the country stable enough for oil production to continue. It was either give the Ayatollah a chance to fulfill his promise to restore stability as spiritual leader of the Iranians or let a military coup take hold and hope for the best.

OK.

 

[Tinkerpeach]

'Iranian rapper Toomaj Salehi was jailed after he called out the Islamic Republic. Now he's facing the death penalty'
Source: Rapper Toomaj Salehi's courage to speak out has won him fans all over the world. Now he's facing the death penalty

Shame on the Iranian regime and shame to those who wish for theocratic regimes everywhere in my view.

I believe if there where any justice in Iran this brave young man would be freed and compensated for wrongful imprisonment and torture.

Well what did he expect was going to happen?

Kinda like that missionary who went to that island where the people kill all intruders.

He went and they killed him.

Sad but you do kind of have to wonder about the mindset of some people.

 

[danieldemol]

Well what did he expect was going to happen?

Kinda like that missionary who went to that island where the people kill all intruders.

He went and they killed him.

Sad but you do kind of have to wonder about the mindset of some people.

Um, he is native to Iran, he didn't travel anywhere he was just trying to help his own people prosper.

And I'm sure he expected the backlash. Which I believe shows the courage some people have to call for necessary change.

 

[Tinkerpeach]

Um, he is native to Iran, he didn't travel anywhere he was just trying to help his own people prosper.

And I'm sure he expected the backlash. Which I believe shows the courage some people have to call for necessary change.

Courage or stupidity.

There are many things I protest but not a single one of them is worth my life.

 

[danieldemol]

Courage or stupidity.

There are many things I protest but not a single one of them is worth my life.

Well some people are more concerned with the lives of those around them such as their families and friends than they are with their own lives.

You may consider altruism to be stupid, but historically it helped many groups survive great dangers.

Besides, some people feel it's better to die on your feet than live on your knees. I wouldn't knock anyone for choosing to live on their knees but I can understand the first sentiment.

 

[Tinkerpeach]

Well some people are more concerned with the lives of those around them such as their families and friends than they are with their own lives.

You may consider altruism to be stupid, but historically it helped many groups survive great dangers.

Besides, some people feel it's better to die on your feet than live on your knees. I wouldn't knock anyone for choosing to live on their knees but I can understand the first sentiment.

Altruism does not exist.

Anything anyone does is out of selfishness.

As for dying on your feet I get that but the point is that this guy didn’t need to even face that option.

He chose it.

There is an old saying that tells us how battlefields are littered with dead heroes.

 

[danieldemol]

Altruism does not exist.

Anything anyone does is out of selfishness.

I don't know if altruism is done out of selfishness or not, but that people do things which puts their own lives at risk for the benefit of others I interpret as overwhelming evidence that altruism exists, regardless of were its motivation arises.

As for dying on your feet I get that but the point is that this guy didn’t need to even face that option.

Well he could have emigrated and then his society would view him as a foreign voice and his influential power would be diminished.

He chose it.

Sure

There is an old saying that tells us how battlefields are littered with dead heroes.

Sure, and they are littered with dead foes too. It is not really up to me or you to decide if the cost of having one's mother's, sisters, or daughters killed - because they didn't wear a veil - is high enough to go to war for anyone other than ourselves in my view. That is up to the people of Iran to decide how many women they are comfortable having killed before they say enough is enough.

But I applaud this man's courage for reaching his limit at high cost to himself.

You clearly don't applaud him and nothing I say is apparently going to change that.
Equally nothing you say is going to prevent my round of applause for him and his courage.

 

[Tinkerpeach]

I don't know if altruism is done out of selfishness or not, but that people do things which puts their own lives at risk for the benefit of others I interpret as overwhelming evidence that altruism exists, regardless of were its motivation arises.

Well he could have emigrated and then his society would view him as a foreign voice and his influential power would be diminished.

Sure

Sure, and they are littered with dead foes too. It is not really up to me or you to decide if the cost of having one's mother's, sisters, or daughters killed - because they didn't wear a veil - is high enough to go to war for anyone other than ourselves in my view. That is up to the people of Iran to decide how many women they are comfortable having killed before they say enough is enough.

But I applaud this man's courage for reaching his limit at high cost to himself.

You clearly don't applaud him and nothing I say is apparently going to change that.
Equally nothing you say is going to prevent my round of applause for him and his courage.

Fair enough, although your dodge on altruism is noted.

Courage is great but only if it matters.

What is more important is change. If this man is executed will people even remember in a month from now?

Will he become a martyr that sparks a revolution?

Probably not. He will just be another victim. Courage, in my opinion, is knowing when not to fight so that you can win in the war.

Any fool can fall on a sword but a true hero can walk away.

 

[danieldemol]

Fair enough, although your dodge on altruism is noted.

Dodge? I believe I supplied overwhelming evidence of it.

Here it is again;
"...that people do things which puts their own lives at risk for the benefit of others I interpret as overwhelming evidence that altruism exists..."

Courage is great but only if it matters.

What is more important is change. If this man is executed will people even remember in a month from now?

Will he become a martyr that sparks a revolution?

Probably not. He will just be another victim.

I guess that remains to be seen.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Well what did he expect was going to happen?

Kinda like that missionary who went to that island where the people kill all intruders.

He went and they killed him.

Sad but you do kind of have to wonder about the mindset of some people.

I think there is a difference between these two - where the missionary I believe was warned not to go there, and I think even by the native population as to what might happen (not his first attempt). And perhaps where they saw his arrival as being a threat to their very existence - not wanting outside influences to enter their world.

The rapper was probably foolish - in not accepting that what he was doing could result in death - and which is similar to so many instances of criticism and various countries, when these individuals are seen as just too troublesome for the despotic regimes in place in such countries.

 

[Tinkerpeach]

I think there is a difference between these two - where the missionary I believe was warned not to go there, and I think even by the native population as to what might happen (not his first attempt). And perhaps where they saw his arrival as being a threat to their very existence - not wanting outside influences to enter their world.

The rapper was probably foolish - in not accepting that what he was doing could result in death - and which is similar to so many instances of criticism and various countries, when these individuals are seen as just too troublesome for the despotic regimes in place in such countries.

Correct.

Let’s hope that this man is released and who knows, sometimes bold moves like this can spark a change for the better.

 

[Tinkerpeach]

Dodge? I believe I supplied overwhelming evidence of it.

Here it is again;
"...that people do things which puts their own lives at risk for the benefit of others I interpret as overwhelming evidence that altruism exists..."

I guess that remains to be seen.

But why are they putting their life at risk?

They do so because that is what they want to do.

The saving of the life is merely the consequence of taking an action that the person desired. If you could ask that person why they would give their life for others what would they say?

They would say something like “because I want others to live.”

So it’s about what they want and is based on selfishness. In fact any decision a human makes is out of selfishness.

If there is something someone doesn’t want to do then they won’t. You may argue that you don’t like to go to work but you still do because you are rewarded for that.

The same is true of saving someone’s life. The individual doesn’t want to die but the rewards they get for saving a life pleases them more than living does.

It’s about pleasing oneself.

 

[firedragon]

Altruism does not exist.

That's interesting. I know this is irrelevant, but just for knowledge could you explain and give proof for this statement? But if you say it's irrelevant that's true and I will just leave it. Only if you have time.

 

[danieldemol]

But why are they putting their life at risk?

They do so because that is what they want to do.

The saving of the life is merely the consequence of taking an action that the person desired. If you could ask that person why they would give their life for others what would they say?

They would say something like “because I want others to live.”

So it’s about what they want and is based on selfishness. In fact any decision a human makes is out of selfishness.

If there is something someone doesn’t want to do then they won’t. You may argue that you don’t like to go to work but you still do because you are rewarded for that.

The same is true of saving someone’s life. The individual doesn’t want to die but the rewards they get for saving a life pleases them more than living does.

It’s about pleasing oneself.

I can agree it's about pleasing one's self. But according to Wikipedia;

'Altruism, as observed in populations of organisms, is when an individual performs an action at a cost to itself (in terms of e.g. pleasure and quality of life, time, probability of survival or reproduction) that benefits, directly or indirectly, another individual, without the expectation of reciprocity or compensation for that action.[4]'

Source: Altruism - Wikipedia

I'm just not seeing how doing actions which are pleasing to one's self makes an action performed at a cost to self for benefit of others without expectation of compensation or reciprocity to be *not* altruism.

 

[Tinkerpeach]

I can agree it's about pleasing one's self. But according to Wikipedia;

'Altruism, as observed in populations of organisms, is when an individual performs an action at a cost to itself (in terms of e.g. pleasure and quality of life, time, probability of survival or reproduction) that benefits, directly or indirectly, another individual, without the expectation of reciprocity or compensation for that action.[4]'

Source: Altruism - Wikipedia

I'm just not seeing how doing actions which are pleasing to one's self makes an action performed at a cost to self for benefit of others without expectation of compensation or reciprocity to be *not* altruism.

I’m not sure that groups of organisms quite compares to humans since they don’t have emotions.

 

[Tinkerpeach]

That's interesting. I know this is irrelevant, but just for knowledge could you explain and give proof for this statement? But if you say it's irrelevant that's true and I will just leave it. Only if you have time.

I believe I already have in this thread.

Essentially it means that any action a person takes benefits them in some way which is the motivation for the action.

A soldier who jumps on a grenade to save his platoon would be considered altruistic because he gave his life to save others but did he do it just to save others or because his reward would be the gratification of self sacrifice?

To him, at that moment, what pleased him most was seeing his fellow soldiers live. He wanted that more than he wanted to live so the action was taken out of the desire to please himself.

If he did not want the soldiers to live he wouldn’t fall on the grenade.

 

[danieldemol]

I’m not sure that groups of organisms quite compares to humans since they don’t have emotions.

Irrelevant, you claimed altruism doesn't exist in my view.
Retract your in my view false claim and we can discuss whether more complex organisms are capable of altruism.

 

[firedragon]

A soldier who jumps on a grenade to save his platoon would be considered altruistic because he gave his life to save others but did he do it just to save others or because his reward would be the gratification of self sacrifice?

That would only show that you don't know. Not that Altruism does not exist. Just that you don't know if this particular soldier had it or not. That's agnosticism, not a hard position you had taken.

But thanks for giving your reasoning. Cheers.

 

[Tinkerpeach]

Irrelevant, you claimed altruism doesn't exist in my view.
Retract your in my view false claim and we can discuss whether more complex organisms are capable of altruism.

Altruism could exist in organisms and even in humans if they are incapable of understanding basic emotions.

 

[danieldemol]

Altruism could exist in organisms and even in humans if they are incapable of understanding basic emotions.

Given the definition of altruism I gave you, could you explain how having emotions is relevant to it?

I think at some point you are going to have to clarify that you are using a different definition of altruism to the one I'm using and thus we are talking past each other.

I'm not making claims about the definition you are using. I am saying as per the definition I have provided it appears to exist in humans in my view.