Irish Woman Dies When Denied Abortion

[Drolefille]

I'm sorry, but the raging bias in the headline alone makes me loathe to trust that article.

Oh wait, you mean a Catholic paper might have a bias?
Madness.
Sparta.

I don't know whether it was the law that stopped them saving her life or not, I don't care because allowing her to die was wrong no matter what.

But when we have people proposing no-exception laws and using no-exception rhetoric, they're saying they wish to be responsible for this.

 

[Quiddity]

I'm sorry, but the raging bias in the headline alone makes me loathe to trust that article.

Of course it does. We can all sing Kum ba yah until we find an unbias source.

 

[Drolefille]

Of course it does. We can all sing Kum ba yah until we find an unbias source.

You posted an opinion piece. It's clearly a Catholic opinion. How about a news article that includes legal opinion?

 

[Storm]

Of course it does. We can all sing Kum ba yah until we find an unbias source.

Of course everyone has bias. However, responsible journalists do their best to put it aside. Whoever wrote that clearly and proudly made no such attempt.

 

[Quiddity]

You posted an opinion piece. It's clearly a Catholic opinion. How about a news article that includes legal opinion?

A legal opinion about something that is still awaiting the details to unravel? Have no idea. And I did link to a group of doctors in Ireland. I'm guessing they are bias to me thinks.

 

[Storm]

A legal opinion about something that is still awaiting the details to unravel? Have no idea. And I did link to a group of doctors in Ireland. I'm guessing they are bias to me thinks.

Or you know, find and quote the actual law.

 

[Quiddity]

Of course everyone has bias. However, responsible journalists do their best to put it aside. Whoever wrote that clearly and proudly made no such attempt.

Given that you promoted this thread as an abortion or die, I can't say my confidence is too high that you even understood or read it all.

But yeah, they are bias.

 

[Storm]

Given that you promoted this thread as an abortion or die, I can't say my confidence is too high that you even understood or read it all.

But yeah, they are bias.

Gee, thanks for the vote of confidence. I suppose her three day miscarriage and resulting sepsis were somehow my fault?

 

[Quiddity]

Or you know, find and quote the actual law.

And then what? I'm no lawyer and I'm sure the details will come out.

 

[Quiddity]

Gee, thanks for the vote of confidence. I suppose her three day miscarriage and resulting sepsis were somehow my fault?

Apparently it was the catholic teaching, which is total bs.

 

[Storm]

And then what? I'm no lawyer and I'm sure the details will come out.

You don't have to, of course, but it would settle the question of whether or not the law is to blame.

 

[Storm]

Apparently it was the catholic teaching, which is total bs.

I don't recall saying any such thing.

 

[Drolefille]

A legal opinion about something that is still awaiting the details to unravel? Have no idea. And I did link to a group of doctors in Ireland. I'm guessing they are bias to me thinks.

'In current obstetrical practice rare complications can arise where therapeutic intervention is required at a stage in pregnancy when there will be little or no prospect for the survival of the baby, due to extreme immaturity. In these exceptional situations failure to intervene may result in the death of both the mother and baby. We consider that there is a fundamental difference between abortion carried out with the intention of taking the life of the baby, for example for social reasons, and the unavoidable death of the baby resulting from essential treatment to protect the life of the mother.'

How do they define extreme immaturity? What is therapeutic intervention.

Under Catholic doctrine, there is no way to perform a D&C with the heartbeat still beating. Because that would be killing the fetus. Just as a medical abortion or anything other than surgical removal of the surrounding fallopian tube is unacceptable for the "therapeutic intervention" of an ecotopic pregnancy. It has to be an incidental death of the child, not a direct termination. This would have been a termination.

So, everything posted only confirms what I have been saying.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

First off, this is indeed tragic and sad and it would upset me greatly if my words were interpreted in any way that would deem the lost lives without dignity and respect. The idea is always to preserve life and I hope that can be seen.

1. The intention of my response is only to speak to it's relevance to catholic teaching. It would be irresponsible [I think] of me to defend the actions of the doctors as is currently reported (even though I can't stand the lying anti-life IrishTimes....yuck). If malpractice is at play, I will lose no sleep over the law stepping in (although this is more of medical negligence and have no idea how that plays out).

2. I find it disgusting that pro-choicers used this event as a means to propagate their vehement hatred of catholic teaching and to campaign for abortion.

3. Catholic Teaching says the following about such situations:
"Operations, treatments, and medications that have as their direct purpose the cure of a proportionately serious pathological condition of a pregnant woman are permitted when they cannot be safely postponed until the unborn child is viable, even if they will result in the death of the unborn child."
USCCB - (Bishops) - Ethical and Religious Directives for Catholic Health Care Services, Fourth Edition

I think you need to read the rest of that page, particularly this part (emphasis mine):

45. Abortion (that is, the directly intended termination of pregnancy before viability or the directly intended destruction of a viable fetus) is never permitted. Every procedure whose sole immediate effect is the termination of pregnancy before viability is an abortion, which, in its moral context, includes the interval between conception and implantation of the embryo. Catholic health care institutions are not to provide abortion services, even based upon the principle of material cooperation. In this context, Catholic health care institutions need to be concerned about the danger of scandal in any association with abortion providers.

9-10ths_Penguin, contrary to your understanding, not all abortions are equal and certainly not to an adult person (comparing matters of mercy killings and matters of abortion where the life of the mother is at risk is a mistake). They just don't carry the same moral weight. However, it is always wrong in our view to end the life of the innocent assuming one considers the above. Also see:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/catholic-dir/70265-do-embryos-have-souls.html

I'm not sure what you mean about "my understanding". I haven't even brought up my opinions about abortion in this thread. All I've said is that Catholic doctrine says that abortion is never permitted.

Drolefille, notice I never once said that direct termination of the fetus was ok; Hope you caught that.

In this case, it would have been a direct termination of the fetus that would have saved the woman's life. If you're opposed to it, then you're saying that what the doctors did was right.

 

[Quiddity]

You don't have to, of course, but it would settle the question of whether or not the law is to blame.

Well, if brought forth it should be fairly easy to tell, no?

 

[Storm]

Well, if brought forth it should be fairly easy to tell, no?

Kind of what I just said. Are you going to, or are you dancing for no reason?

 

[Quiddity]

I don't recall saying any such thing.

I don't recall saying you said it.

 

[Storm]

I don't recall saying you said it.

Then don't blame me for it, either.

 

[Drolefille]

Apparently it was the catholic teaching, which is total bs.

No it really isn't.
Chemotherapy or fallopian tube removal are acceptable, a D&C on a "living" fetus, even one that is dying, is not. PER DOCTRINE.

 

[Quiddity]

Kind of what I just said. Are you going to, or are you dancing for no reason?

Nah, I've been sort surfing for a while and have no inclination to go hunt it down at the moment. Besides, I'm not the one making the claim that the law may not be on their side. Your the one that wants to know, not me.