Irreducible complexity exists - cannot be refuted

[idea]

These are questions I have for you actually..

I would answer the questions as:

- intelligence exists, just as matter, energy, and everything else exists. I think it has always existed, and will always exist - that it follows the same conservation laws that everything else follows... nothing comes from nothing, nothing disappears into nothing, things just change form with time.

- intelligence is responsible for designing things, and manipulating matter. We see this on macroscopic levels of building cars and buildings, or on microscopic levels of the results in who we choose to mate with, what we choose to eat, chemicals involved with stress/emotions within our body, and our ability to control our thoughts / personality etc. etc.

- where did intelligence come from? where did matter come from? where did energy come from? I think the answer to all of these is the same - that they have no beginning, and so did not come from anywhere, they have just always been, and always will be.

I believe in God, but define the word "create" differently than most religious people. To create art is not to create the paint, or paper, but to transform what eternally exists. Creation to me is not making something from nothing, but transforming/influencing/organizing/forming...

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man...

formed is a better word than create...

the great scientists, great musicians, the great authors, the great humanitarians - those who are endowed with more intelligence have more influence, and create/change/transform/organize what is around them. I think there are weaker intelligences, and higher intelligences... higher intelligences influence the weaker ones, and that we can all learn/grow/progress in intelligence... our ability to grow - plant vs. a rock, plants grow... life is something that grows.

 

[doppelganger]

I agree that formed is more appropriate than "create" as a translation for bara. However, stating a list of assertions about what you think intelligence and "will" does neither addresses the nature of this homunculus itself, or the conflict it creates with your view of science.

To put it blunty, what is the "will" and does it operate free from the infinite web of movement that is the Universe in any realm other than the grammatical? And, if so, then specifically how? What are the non-grammatical mechanics of the "will"?

 

[camanintx]

and here I thought entropy was increasing

In a closed system, yes. However, like the way oil and water separate in a gravitional field, natural processes have a way of reducing entropy on a local scale.

 

[idea]

To put it blunty, what is the "will" and does it operate free from the infinite web of movement that is the Universe in any realm other than the grammatical? And, if so, then specifically how? What are the non-grammatical mechanics of the "will"?

We cannot choose to float through the air like a hot-air balloon and go against the laws of gravity.

we can choose how to react though. We can choose to be kind, we can choose to be angry, or happy. We choose what our personality is, and what our character is.

“Everything can be taken from a man but one thing; the last of the human freedoms - to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way”

Viktor Frankl

Victor Frankl - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Frankl
someone who went through a concentration camp - people killed his family, took his cloths, his food, everything - tried to force him to be miserable.... but he decided, even in such circumstances, he was still free... still free to choose his own attitude, and free to choose his own way.

 

[idea]

In a closed system, yes. However, like the way oil and water separate in a gravitional field, natural processes have a way of reducing entropy on a local scale.

in the beginning, before the bang, there was a highly compressed ball of matter and energy (or so they say)... was this ball organized? did it have a perfect structure? Before all the bits and pieces started flying apart everywhere, before the ball was broken and shattered, I think there was perfect order.... but I suppose that depends on how you define order...

have to run - it's been fun! read ya'll later.

 

[atanu]

What you call "will/mind/intelligence/spirit/conscience" is nothing more than patterns within the matter and energy which make up our brains. We cannot exist separate from our bodies any more than a painting can exist separate from the pigments it is made from.

You've killed my father, prepare to die.

When did we live?

 

[atanu]

A pattern within another pattern? I see an infinite regress problem here unless you can explain why the initial pattern doesn't require intelligence to create it.

These are naive questions. How does singularity come into being?

 

[atanu]

So "chance" and "random" are not statements about the world outside of thought.

No exoteric knowledge for that matter is.

Theists are those who, when the Void stares into them, -----

At least the void is encountered.

 

[camanintx]

in the beginning, before the bang, there was a highly compressed ball of matter and energy (or so they say)... was this ball organized? did it have a perfect structure? Before all the bits and pieces started flying apart everywhere, before the ball was broken and shattered, I think there was perfect order.... but I suppose that depends on how you define order...

According to the latest measurements from WMAP, the initial order doesn't appear quite so perfect.

Seven Year Microwave Sky Image

 

[doppelganger]

We cannot choose to float through the air like a hot-air balloon and go against the laws of gravity.

That still doesn't answer my question or resolve your contradiction. What is this "We" that you are talking about? And what is the mechanics by which it interacts with the Universe? I don't want you to state that the will is that which chooses. That's a circular definition and doesn't answer the quesiton. Explain what you think "the will" is, and the mechanics by which it "chooses".

 

[doppelganger]

When did we live?

Who wants to know?

 

[atanu]

Who wants to know?

Ya.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Sorry if you posted first, I saw the OP and rushed to posting Ken. lol

No apologies needed. It just means we are aware of the correct information and are willing to share it with others in a hope they will learn from it.

It totally crushes i.c.

I agree completely. Maybe this is the reason he hasn't responded. Probably too embarrassed to admit he hasn't got a clue as to what evolution is.

 

[atanu]

Unlike many other theoreticians, i have actually seen different chemicals in remnants of life forms in different earth strata. My colleagues have shown me evolution of fossil forms in earth starta. To me, within our the scope of observations and methods, the evolution of life forms is beyond doubt and Natural selection is the most appropriate explanation for the observations.

But suppose we observe photos of change of shape (flattening) of what originally was a red hot iron ball to a flat cold sheet of iron, we might not infer the role of the heat and the role of the flattening blows that the iron ball underwent. The change is just in the shape of iron. Neither the iron nor the heat that helped to change the shape change in this process.

The universe is Names-Forms that evolve from moment to moment. Without the unchanging power of discernment (which underlies past, present, and future), these changes will not be known and no meanings will be assigned.

 

[nnmartin]

RE: video on flagellum

I presented this one along with another.....I got no reply from him...YET..!!!

Yes, I've already said that the flagellum, beetle etc.. could be possible through natural selection.

But the argument is about the knowledge that makes this possible.

 

[tumbleweed41]

But the argument is about the knowledge that makes this possible.

What "knowledge"? Are you attributing intelligence to the natural laws of the universe?

 

[doppelganger]

What "knowledge"? Are you attributing intelligence to the natural laws of the universe?

Yep. It winked at him.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Yes, I've already said that the flagellum, beetle etc.. could be possible through natural selection.

You have come a long way since the first page of this thread! Kudos to you for be open to new knowledge and willing to change your mind.

But the argument is about the knowledge that makes this possible.

Could you clarify your objection? Does this have to do with your post #5, about the "millions of tiny adjustments" and the "self organizing mechanism" of DNA?

 

[jarofthoughts]

Here is a physics forum discussion on the existence of randomness if you would like to read through an educated discussion on it...

Does random exist?

nothing just randomly happens, or randomly moves around.

Mutations are random in the sense that they are impossible to predict, not because the forces that create them are inherently random.
Stick to the topic please.

 

[atanu]

Mutations are random in the sense that they are impossible to predict, not because the forces that create them are inherently random.
Stick to the topic please.

Why impossible? I thought science knew all the laws.