Is a Belief a Claim?

[Nimos]

I see no reason to give beliefs a pass from being a claim simply because it can not be proven.

I think we might be talking passed each other.

It's not about whether one should give beliefs a pass or not.

"I believe that I will win the lottery."

To treat my belief in that as if it is a claim doesn't make sense. How could I prove to you that this is what I believe?

The only reasonable response to that is:
"I don't believe you will"
"Why do you believe that?"

It seems odd if someone replied:
"Prove why you believe that?"

 

[danieldemol]

If I tell you that I believe something with no expectation for you to believe that which I do, am I making a claim? Does that belief have to be supported by objective evidence? Does the belief need to be falsifiable?

Why or why not?

I think it depends on the context. It may be fair to demand evidence even if they don't intend to get you to believe in their beliefs in my view.

Eg Baha'i (loyal to the Haifa Universal House of Justice) are part of an organisation which intends to make a Baha'i state if and/or when they make a suitable majority and part of Baha'i law is to make homosexuality illegal. Now if the Baha'i get their majority they will not care if for example a gay atheist minority person does not agree with their law, they will tell that person about their law without necessarily expecting such a person to accept that belief that such a law is a good idea, however it would still be fair to demand that they provide evidence such a law is a net positive to society as any potential majority they have could be prevented or reversed by such debate and a net negative to society could be averted in my opinion.

 

[Trailblazer]

There are a great many words that are synonyms for other words.

True, but belief and claim are not synonymous since they do not have the same meaning, not even close.

Claim: state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.
claim means - Google Search

Claim: to say that something is true or is a fact, although you cannot prove it and other people might not believe it: claim

Belief:
1. an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"

2. trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
"a belief in democratic politics"
https://www.google.com/search

Belief:
the feeling of being certain that something exists or is true:
His belief in God gave him hope during difficult times.
Recent scandals have shaken many people's belief in (= caused people to have doubts about) politicians.
belief

 

[Trailblazer]

I think we might be talking passed each other.

It's not about whether one should give beliefs a pass or not.

"I believe that I will win the lottery."

To treat my belief in that as if it is a claim doesn't make sense. How could I prove to you that this is what I believe?

The only reasonable response to that is:
"I don't believe you will"
"Why do you believe that?"

It seems odd if someone replied:
"Prove why you believe that?"

Obviously you clearly understand the difference between a belief and a claim. The reason why many atheists try to make a belief into a claim is so that they can say that believers are making claims, ask us for evidence to support our claims, and then say we don't have any evidence.
Atheists have been doing this to me ever since I started posting to them on forums 10 years ago.

You can probably see what I am saying in the following statement since you are not one of those atheists.

@McBell said: I see no reason to give beliefs a pass from being a claim simply because it can not be proven.

Beliefs do not need a pass from being claims because beliefs are not claims!

 

[McBell]

"I believe that I will win the lottery."

To treat my belief in that as if it is a claim doesn't make sense. How could I prove to you that this is what I believe?

From post#63:

Claim: state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.​

Is that not exactly what "I believe that I will win the lottery" is?

So to claim it is not a claim, it is a belief, sure looks like trying to give beliefs a pass....

The only reasonable response to that is:
"I don't believe you will"
"Why do you believe that?"

It seems odd if someone replied:
"Prove why you believe that?"

So my response of "Sweet, that means you get the next round" is unreasonable?
Why is that?

 

[McBell]

Obviously you clearly understand the difference between a belief and a claim. The reason why many atheists try to make a belief into a claim is so that they can say that believers are making claims, ask us for evidence to support our claims, and then say we don't have any evidence.
Atheists have been doing this to me ever since I started posting to them on forums 10 years ago.

When you make claims about your beliefs, they are still claims.
It matters not how much you insist they are not claims.

You can probably see what I am saying in the following statement since you are not one of those atheists.

@McBell said: I see no reason to give beliefs a pass from being a claim simply because it can not be proven.

Beliefs do not need a pass from being claims because beliefs are not claims!

The only way to keep your beliefs from being claims would be to keep them to yourself.
The second you start making claims about your beliefs, they are claims.

 

[Trailblazer]

When you make claims about your beliefs, they are still claims.
It matters not how much you insist they are not claims.

I do not make claims about my beliefs.
I share my beliefs but I make no claims that they are true.
For me to say "I believe x is true" is not a claim. It is a statement of what I believe, not an assertion of truth.

The only way to keep your beliefs from being claims would be to keep them to yourself.
The second you start making claims about your beliefs, they are claims.

I am not making claims about my beliefs.
The prophet founder of the Baha'i Faith made a claim to be a Messenger of God. I believe his claims. I am making no claims of my own since I have nothing to claim.

Whether or not I share my beliefs on a forum or not has nothing to do with whether it is a belief or a claim.
A belief is a belief and a claim is a claim and they are not the same.

 

[McBell]

I do not make claims about my beliefs.
I share my beliefs but I make no claims that they are true.
For me to say "I believe x is true" is not a claim. It is a statement of what I believe, not an assertion of truth.

So it is not true that you believe what you claim to believe?
Weird that.
One wonders why, if you do not believe what you say you believe, you would make a claim of belief to begin with...

I am not making claims about my beliefs.
The prophet founder of the Baha'i Faith made a claim to be a Messenger of God. I believe his claims. I am making no claims of my own since I have nothing to claim.

Whether or not I share my beliefs on a forum or not has nothing to do with whether it is a belief or a claim.
A belief is a belief and a claim is a claim and they are not the same.

I never said they were the same.
Stating your beliefs is still making a claim.
You are claiming that you believe or don't believe, something.

 

[Trailblazer]

So it is not true that you believe what you claim to believe?
Weird that.
One wonders why, if you do not believe what you say you believe, you would make a claim of belief to begin with...

I do not claim to believe x. I say I believe x.

I never said they were the same.
Stating your beliefs is still making a claim.

Stating my beliefs is not making a claim since I do not state or assert that my beliefs are true.
I believe they are true but I do not state or assert that they are true.

Claim: state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.
claim means - Google Search

Claim: to say that something is true or is a fact, although you cannot prove it and other people might not believe it: claim

You are claiming that you believe or don't believe, something.

I am saying that I believe something.

Say: utter words so as to convey information, an opinion, a feeling or intention, or an instruction.
say means - Google Search

 

[Heyo]

A belief can be just a belief. But there are some (again, the usual suspects) that have somehow convinced themselves that others have to treat their beliefs as claims or even as truths and present some justification if they do not want to conform to those expectations.

Side note: I have once been informed by moderators that "the usual suspects" is a severe insult in Ameristaneese, not like we take it as "you know who I mean".

 

[Heyo]

Okay, let's try this. I don't believe the world is as real as you believe it to be.

Claim or belief?

Trrricky.
It can't be a believe because you explicitly state that you don't believe.
It also can't be a claim because you don't say that the other person's belief is false.

The solution is that beliefs as well as "not beliefs" are reports of inner states without a claim of truth.

 

[blü 2]

Inspired by something I read in another thread here, where a member stated they're not making a claim, but expressing a belief, and another member, in the ever so civil and polite demeanor of so many of our debaters here, replied, "a claim."

If I tell you that I believe something with no expectation for you to believe that which I do, am I making a claim? Does that belief have to be supported by objective evidence? Does the belief need to be falsifiable?

Why or why not?

Assuming neutral circumstances, I'd say you were making the claim THAT you believe.

However, if you assert that what you believe is correct, then THAT is a further claim you're making.

 

[Heyo]

When you make claims about your beliefs, they are still claims.
It matters not how much you insist they are not claims.

I do not make claims about my beliefs.
I share my beliefs but I make no claims that they are true.
For me to say "I believe x is true" is not a claim. It is a statement of what I believe, not an assertion of truth.

I have a feeling you are talking past each other.
It helps to dissect what is being said: "X is true" is a claim, "I believe (X is true)" makes (X is true) into a belief.
You agree on that.
But @McBell now takes the compound statement "(I believe X is true)" and claims that that is a claim. It isn't.
"I believe (X)" (and also "I don't believe (X)") are reports of inner states. They can still be false but as they are not talking about the real world, they are not claims.
It is similar to "I saw (X)". That is a report about a perception, not a claim that you saw something (and not a claim that (X) really happened).
I believe this will help clear up the matter.

 

[Nimos]

From post#63:

Claim: state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.
Is that not exactly what "I believe that I will win the lottery" is?

So to claim it is not a claim, it is a belief, sure looks like trying to give beliefs a pass....

It is not the same.

"I believe that I will win the lottery" is not a statement expressing knowledge. Rather it is a statement based on a conviction that something is true, whether it is justified or unjustified.

Unjustified:
"I believe that I will win the lottery this time because there is a full moon"

Justified:
"I believe team A will win because they have all the best players in the world on their team"
Even though it isn't certain that Team A will win, it is a justified belief because the odds are stacked in its favor.

But none of these beliefs are made as if the person have knowledge of whether this will actually happen or not.

To compare them to claims:

Unjustified
"I will win the lottery because it is a full moon"
This suggests that the person has reached a conclusion based on knowledge. In this case, about the effect a full moon will have on their chance to win the lottery. Without them providing evidence/proof for why a full moon has such an effect, the claim is worthless.

Justified
"Team A will win because they have all the best players in the world on their team"
The evidence that teams with the best players tend to win more than those without is backed up by evidence. This doesn't mean that the claim is necessarily true every single time, simply that the claim is justified.

This is equal to when scientists talk about dark energy or dark matter. Whether the claim turns out to be true or not, it is still justified, because the evidence shows that things aren't adding up.

So my response of "Sweet, that means you get the next round" is unreasonable?
Why is that?

Im not sure, I understand to you would respond that?

By the next round, I assume you mean the next winning numbers?

If that is the case, then my reply to you would be "Yes, I believe I will", so it is a statement based on convincing rather than knowledge.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Claim

So would I be required to support it with objective evidence even though I presented no expectation for you to buy into this view?

 

[SalixIncendium]

Nope.

If Bobs says I believe my daughter is the prettiest girl in the world.... Its his belief and truth to him, no one else.

Right, and we already know it's not true because we know my daughter is the prettiest girl in the world...

 

[Nimos]

Obviously you clearly understand the difference between a belief and a claim. The reason why many atheists try to make a belief into a claim is so that they can say that believers are making claims, ask us for evidence to support our claims, and then say we don't have any evidence.
Atheists have been doing this to me ever since I started posting to them on forums 10 years ago.

You can probably see what I am saying in the following statement since you are not one of those atheists.

One has to be careful and I think @SalixIncendium used a good example:

"I don't believe the world is as real as you believe it to be." Claim or belief?

Because simply because one expresses something as a belief, doesn't automatically make it so.

In this case, which I also tried to explain to @McBell is that if we look at belief and claims as being the same, this statement would simply be a belief.

But that doesn't make sense, as it is a claim made about the other person. This is why it doesn't make sense to treat one's beliefs as if they are claims. So if we rewrite it it hopefully becomes more clear:

"You believe that the world is more real than I do", that is to make a claim about what the other person believes. Yet, it is also clearly an expression of one's own belief (conviction).

So when I say that one has to be careful, it is when someone makes a statement like "I believe God is real" instantly followed by "God doesn't like when someone...", "God can't do..." this is the same thing, it expresses a conviction that God is real, followed by claims about God, which are based on an expression of knowledge. So things get messed up rather quickly. Because we can ignore the "I believe God is real", and instead focus on the claim statements.

 

[SalixIncendium]

I think it depends on the context. It may be fair to demand evidence even if they don't intend to get you to believe in their beliefs in my view.

Eg Baha'i (loyal to the Haifa Universal House of Justice) are part of an organisation which intends to make a Baha'i state if and/or when they make a suitable majority and part of Baha'i law is to make homosexuality illegal. Now if the Baha'i get their majority they will not care if for example a gay atheist minority person does not agree with their law, they will tell that person about their law without necessarily expecting such a person to accept that belief that such a law is a good idea, however it would still be fair to demand that they provide evidence such a law is a net positive to society as any potential majority they have could be prevented or reversed by such debate and a net negative to society could be averted in my opinion.

Wouldn't the creation of a law and the expectation of others to adhere to that law create an expectation to get another to believe the belief?

 

[Nimos]

So would I be required to support it with objective evidence even though I presented no expectation for you to buy into this view?

Read the reply I just posted #77, and see if that doesn't answer it?

 

[SalixIncendium]

Read the reply I just posted #77, and see if that doesn't answer it?

To an extent.

"You believe that the world is more real than I do", that is to make a claim about what the other person believes. Yet, it is also clearly an expression of one's own belief (conviction).

There is no expression of belief in this statement. It is not a belief about what another believes; it informs another of what they believe. It is a statement submitted as definitive fact, and therefore shouldn't be considered a belief. It is a perfect example of a claim that requires objective evidence and requires falsifiability.

So when I say that one has to be careful, it is when someone makes a statement like "I believe God is real" instantly followed by "God doesn't like when someone...", "God can't do..." this is the same thing, it expresses a conviction that God is real, followed by claims about God, which are based on an expression of knowledge. So things get messed up rather quickly. Because we can ignore the "I believe God is real", and instead focus on the claim statements.

What if someone says "I believe God is real" followed by "I don't think God would like when someone..." or "I don't believe God can do..."?