Is a Belief a Claim?

[Trailblazer]

And if you are expressing a belief, you are saying what claim you are believing is true.

As said I so many times, you can't have one without the other.

There is no practical difference. Only a semantic one.

If you are expressing a belief, you are saying what claim of someone else's you are believing is true.
I believe the claim of Baha'u'llah to be a Messenger of God but I am not claiming it is true.

As said I so many times, you can have a belief without claiming it is true.

Another point is that you can't have a belief without a claim that is being believed.
Semantic trickery does not change the fact that claims have a burden of proof.

You can have a belief without a claim that is being believed.
Let's say I believe that my husband loves me. What claim am I believing?

A religious belief is a claim that is being believed.
But that does not mean you have to claim that the religious belief is true.
You might claim it is true but not necessarily. You might only share your belief and SAY YOU BELIEVE it is true.

Say: utter words so as to convey information, an opinion, a feeling or intention, or an instruction.
say means - Google Search

Claim: state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.
claim means - Google Search

So the claim is "i will win the lottery" and you believe said claim.

'I will win the lottery' is not a claim, it is a belief.
I believe I will win the lottery.
I don't claim I will win the lottery since I cannot prove that is true.

Since when do claims require being able to PROVE it to be true?

They don't require it, but people usually expect proof or evidence if one makes a claim, especially a religious claim.

 

[PureX]

The technical term I think we're discussing and looking for, here, is not to "claim", but to "proclaim". Meaning that we are inserting our claim into the reality of others. A statement of belief by itsef is a claim. But by itself it is not a proclamation.

 

[Trailblazer]

The technical term I think we're discussing and looking for, here, is not to "claim", but to "proclaim". Meaning that we are inserting our claim into the reality of others. A statement of belief by itsef is a claim. But by itself it is not a proclamation.

A statement of belief is not always a claim, one could just be sharing what they believe.
A proclamation is different than a claim because one is proclaiming something.

proclaim
announce officially or publicly.
"the joint manifesto proclaimed that imperialism would be the coalition's chief objective"

• declare something one considers important with due emphasis.
  "she proclaimed that what I had said was untrue"
• declare officially or publicly to be.
  "he proclaimed James II asKing of England"
  
  Definitions from Oxford Languages
  

Baha'u'llah proclaimed (announced officially and publicly) that He was God's Messenger for this age in this text:

Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh

 

[PureX]

CLAIM: to place under one's ownership or sphere of responsibility.

Notice that this is inward and self-focused.​

PROCLAIM: to assert in a public and intentioned way.

Note that this is an outward thrusting ideal. Intended for others to acknowledge and respect.​

 

[CG Didymus]

CLAIM: to place under one's ownership or sphere of responsibility.

Notice that this is inward and self-focused.​

PROCLAIM: to assert in a public and intentioned way.

Note that this is an outward thrusting ideal. Intended for others to acknowledge and respect.​

Still, if I say, "I believe Jesus is the Son of God." or "I believe Baha'u'llah is the promised return of Christ." I don't see any significant difference from calling it a "claim" a "proclamation" or whatever. I'm claiming I believe this to be true and I am proclaiming it to the world.

All this because one person doesn't want to sound "illogical" because they believe something to be true that can't be proven. Yet, most believers, I'm sure, have "proven" it, in a satisfactory way, to themselves. They will say, "I know it is true." "I read the Scriptures and found it to be true." "I read about my prophet's life, and I believe he spoke the truth." Just because others don't accept those things as good evidence to believe it is true, doesn't stop a believer for believing it and claiming it and proclaiming it.

 

[PureX]

Still, if I say, "I believe Jesus is the Son of God." or "I believe Baha'u'llah is the promised return of Christ." I don't see any significant difference from calling it a "claim" a "proclamation" or whatever.

I literally just explained the difference. What is it that you can't see? The claim is inward focused while the proclamation is outward focused. The claim asserts self-responsibility while the proclamation expects others to take responsibility for it.

I'm claiming I believe this to be true and I am proclaiming it to the world.

You left out the word "belief", which is a SELF-determined position. When I lay claim to the belief that something is true I am asserting to the world that I TAKE THIS TRUTH UNTO MYSELF. Not that the rest of the world must do likewise. But when I proclaim to the world that something is true, I am expecting them to take this truth unto themselves, as I have. That is the difference, and that is why we use two different words to describe the two different acts.

All this because one person doesn't want to sound "illogical"...

All this because people are inarticulate, and are often being deceptive or biased.

If we really cared about the difference between these two actions all we'd need to do is ask for clarification. But mostly no one wants clarification. They just want to attack the beliefs of others regardless.

Still, if I say, "I believe Jesus is the Son of God." or "I believe Baha'u'llah is the promised return of Christ." I don't see any significant difference from calling it a "claim" a "proclamation" or whatever. I'm claiming I believe this to be true and I am proclaiming it to the world.

You're working very hard at NOT seeing the difference at this point. So maybe stop dong that.

 

[Trailblazer]

Still, if I say, "I believe Jesus is the Son of God." or "I believe Baha'u'llah is the promised return of Christ." I don't see any significant difference from calling it a "claim" a "proclamation" or whatever. I'm claiming I believe this to be true and I am proclaiming it to the world.

I am not 'claiming to believe' this is true, I am sharing what I believe is true.
I am not 'proclaiming it to the world', I am only sharing what I believe on a religious forum, which is what people do on a religious forum.

“Consort with all men, O people of Bahá, in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship. If ye be aware of a certain truth, if ye possess a jewel, of which others are deprived, share it with them in a language of utmost kindliness and good-will. If it be accepted, if it fulfil its purpose, your object is attained. If anyone should refuse it, leave him unto himself, and beseech God to guide him. Beware lest ye deal unkindly with him. A kindly tongue is the lodestone of the hearts of men. It is the bread of the spirit, it clotheth the words with meaning, it is the fountain of the light of wisdom and understanding….”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 289

All this because one person doesn't want to sound "illogical" because they believe something to be true that can't be proven.

It is not illogical to believe something that cannot be proven.
It is perfectly logical to believe what cannot ever be proven, if that thing is not subject to proof.
If you do not want to believe something that cannot be proven that is your choice, but that means you will never believe in God or Baha'u'llah,

Yet, most believers, I'm sure, have "proven" it, in a satisfactory way, to themselves. They will say, "I know it is true." "I read the Scriptures and found it to be true." "I read about my prophet's life, and I believe he spoke the truth." Just because others don't accept those things as good evidence to believe it is true, doesn't stop a believer for believing it and claiming it and proclaiming it.

Why should we stop believing it, just because you cannot believe it? That is basically what this boils down to.
Maybe some believers claim and proclaim what they believe but I am not claiming it or proclaiming it. I am only sharing it.

 

[McBell]

Wow.
The bovine feces is getting mighty deep mighty fast up in this here thread.

 

[Trailblazer]

If we really cared about the difference between these two actions all we'd need to do is ask for clarification. But mostly no one wants clarification. They just want to attack the beliefs of others regardless.

Nobody wants clarification because they want to SPEAK FOR OTHER PEOPLE and insist that OTHER PEOPLE are making a claim.

Only the person who writes and posts a post knows if they are making a claim or not.
What it SOUNDS LIKE to other people is totally irrelevant. People should believe other people when they say they are NOT making a claim.
Period. End of story.

 

[Quintessence]

Wow.
The bovine feces is getting mighty deep mighty fast up in this here thread.

Eh, not really... unless humans conversing just in general equates to such things. A case can be made for that, I suppose. It'd be a good thing in any event. Fertilizer is very useful for the gardener and the farmer.

 

[McBell]

If we really cared about the difference between these two actions all we'd need to do is ask for clarification.

I believe this to be a big steaming pile of bovine feces.
I have lost count how many times in this very thread where those who are pushing so hard for their beliefs to get a free pass did not clarify anything other than repeating the claim that they are not making claims because the words "I believe" were somewhere in the post.


Does that bovine feces work where it concerns the forum rules?
Or is it only religious beliefs that get the pass?

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe this to be a big steaming pile of bovine feces.
I have lost count how many times in this very thread where those who are pushing so hard for their beliefs to get a free pass did not clarify anything other than repeating the claim that they are not making claims because the words "I believe" were somewhere in the post.

The only bovine feces are coming from people who insist that other people are making claims, AFTER those people have clarified the fact that they are not making a claim. What gives you the right to speak for other people and what their intentions are?

Whether or not the words "I believe" are in the post or not is totally irrelevant. Something is only a claim if someone is claiming a belief is true or is a fact. Otherwise it is only a shared belief.

Claim: to say that something is true or is a fact, although you cannot prove it and other people might not believe it: claim

I will repeat the claim that I am not making any claims until the day I die because I am not making any claims.
Whatcha gonna do about it?

Does that bovine feces work where it concerns the forum rules?
Or is it only religious beliefs that get the pass?

Free pass for what? A pass for talking about one's religion on a religious forum?