Is a Belief a Claim?

[PureX]

Belief is a claim, but it's an internal claim. Belief is a person claiming something to be true, for and within themselves.

This does not automatically imply that they are claiming that it must also be true for you or I. They may or may not be extending their claim beyond themselves. And the only way to know this is to ask them.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Nope. When I say I believe there's still one beer in the fridge, I'm saying that I'm not sure. I won't bet on it and I won't be surprised or upset if it turns out that my belief wasn't strong enough. (But I may be disappointed.)

I'ld say that this here is confusing multiple uses of the word "believe".
Here, it means more something like "I seem to remember that..." implying certain degree of doubt. You say yourself that you woudn't be surprised or upset if you remember incorrectly.


But the use of the word "belief" in religions isn't like that at all.
I interpreted the use of "belief" by the OP in the sense of "accepting as true". Not as "maybe true" or "51% chance of being true" or even only "likely true".
But rather accepting as factually true.

As true as I accept that I won't live to tell the story if I would jump from the Empire State building without a parachute.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Belief is a clamor, but it's an internal claim. Belief is a person claiming something to be true, for and within themselves.

This does not automatically imply that they are claiming that it must also be true for you or I. They may or may not be extending their claim beyond themselves. And the only way to know this is to ask them.

That doesn't make sense to me.

When someone says "I believe evolution is false and that adam and eve were the first humans".
That person is making a claim / expressing a belief concerning external reality, which would apply to everybody living in that reality.

 

[PureX]

That doesn't make sense to me.

When someone says "I believe evolution is false and that adam and eve were the first humans".
That person is making a claim / expressing a belief concerning external reality, which would apply to everybody living in that reality.

Not everyone automatically assumes they are right, universally and unilaterally, when they determine something to be true from their own perspective. Most people realize that one person's determined truth does not automatically mean they have determined the truth of all, and for all. They recognize that truth is a relative concept and experience for we humans. What may be determined to be true for me, here and now, may not be determined true for you, there and then.

 

[Secret Chief]

Inspired by something I read in another thread here, where a member stated they're not making a claim, but expressing a belief, and another member, in the ever so civil and polite demeanor of so many of our debaters here, replied, "a claim."

If I tell you that I believe something with no expectation for you to believe that which I do, am I making a claim? Does that belief have to be supported by objective evidence? Does the belief need to be falsifiable?

Why or why not?

Ok, so 16 pages in....

No.

Thanks for your time.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Not everyone automatically assumes they are right, universally and unilaterally, when they determine something to be true from their own perspective.

That seems self-contradicting.
Why would you believe something while assuming you are incorrect?

It seems rather self-evident that if you believe something to be true concerning external reality, you think you are right about it.

Most people realize that one person's determined truth does not automatically mean they have determined the truth of all, and for all.

Really? Have you talked to people on this forum about their beliefs?
What you call "most" in fact only seems to be a small minority.

They recognize that truth is a relative concept and experience for we humans. What may be determined to be true for me, here and now, may not be determined true for you, there and then.

I disagree.

I believe that the earth is spherical.
And I consider that to be a universal, objective fact.
And if there are people that believe the earth is flat, then those people are wrong.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Then why all the meaningless irritating quotes from Bible, Qur'an, Kitab-i-Aqdas or other books of purported sayings of uneducated persons? They are trying to prove that what they believe is universal truth. They expect one to take that as truth. In that case it is a claim. They should just say they believe this way. Why do they go beyond it?

 

[PureX]

That seems self-contradicting.
Why would you believe something while assuming you are incorrect?

It's called relativism.

When we are experiencing something that's greater than the scope of our perception, our perception will only be true relative to the portion of that thing that we are experiencing. There is a classic story about blind men describing an elephant by touch. Each is being honest and true about the part of the elephant he can touch, but each describes a different animal, nevertheless. Or there is the story of four men describing a mountain from each of the four corners of the compass. They may agree on the height, but the shape and accessibility will be different for each.

And much the same occurs with ideas, and especially with ideals, because we all perceive and experience them differently. Uniquely.

It seems rather self-evident that if you believe something to be true concerning external reality, you think you are right about it.

Only a fool thinks he's that "right" about what is real and true. In fact, that's WHY he'll remain a fool.

Really? Have you talked to people on this forum about their beliefs?

I don't care at all about anyone's beliefs. I care only about what they assert to be true, and why.

What you call "most" in fact only seems to be a small minority.

Maybe my friends are smarter than yours. Or maybe you just project your own arrogant self-assurance onto them and so presume they all think like you do.

I disagree.

I believe that the earth is spherical.
And I consider that to be a universal, objective fact.
And if there are people that believe the earth is flat, then those people are wrong.

And no one cares at all. Why would they? We only care what other people think, and why. Whatever they believe is their own concern.

 

[exchemist]

Inspired by something I read in another thread here, where a member stated they're not making a claim, but expressing a belief, and another member, in the ever so civil and polite demeanor of so many of our debaters here, replied, "a claim."

If I tell you that I believe something with no expectation for you to believe that which I do, am I making a claim? Does that belief have to be supported by objective evidence? Does the belief need to be falsifiable?

Why or why not?

A personal belief is not a claim. It would be a claim only if an assertion about it being objectively true, i.e. true for people other than the believer, was made.

 

[Heyo]

I'ld say that this here is confusing multiple uses of the word "believe".
Here, it means more something like "I seem to remember that..." implying certain degree of doubt. You say yourself that you woudn't be surprised or upset if you remember incorrectly.


But the use of the word "belief" in religions isn't like that at all.
I interpreted the use of "belief" by the OP in the sense of "accepting as true".

So you are saying you believe @SalixIncendium meant it that way?

Well, in good atheistic manner I say to that "I don't believe (that)". And as I'm not defending your position, I can let it rest there. Otherwise I'd have to demand that you "prove it".

But we are already in the realm of speculations and personal interpretations. And I interpret your admission that you have used personal interpretation that you have stopped to claim that there is only one possible interpretation (yours). I see the matter as settled.
I'd just ask you that, if possible, you just ask your interlocutor if they mean to claim something when they say they believe. It's so easy to avoid misunderstandings.

 

[Trailblazer]

Please explain to me the practical difference between those 3 statements and the following:

I believe Actually God created Adam and Eve and told them the truth.
I believe That was the beginning of the truth for people.
I believe Evolution is just a false religion, repackaged paganism.


I say that the bolded parts are all implied in the way you phrased the claims.
They just aren't mentioned explicitely. Adding them doesn't really change anything in a practical sense.

Assertions (claims):

Actually God created Adam and Eve and told them the truth.
That was the beginning of the truth for people.
Evolution is just a false religion, repackaged paganism.

Statements of belief:

I believe God created Adam and Eve and told them the truth.
I believe That was the beginning of the truth for people.
I believe Evolution is just a false religion, repackaged paganism.

Sure, the person who makes the assertions also believes what he is asserting, but the person who states his beliefs is not asserting that they are true
Therein lies the difference between a claim and a belief.

 

[Trailblazer]

When you believe X, is X not a claim?

No, X is not a claim, not unless you claim it is true.

When you make claim X, is X then not something you believe to be true?

Yes, when you make claim X, you also believe X is true. Why would you claim it if you did not believe it is true?

How can you have a claim without the claim being believed (unless you are lying off course)?

The claim is believed.

How can you have a belief without a claim being being the subject of the belief?

The claim is not the subject of the belief. The belief would be the subject of the claim, if one is making a claim.

A person can hold a belief without claiming the belief is true.

Claims are subject to proof.
I believe that God exists but I would never claim that God exists since I can never prove that God exists.

The problem is that you have decided that all beliefs are claims.
A person can have a belief, and even share that belief, without making a claim that it is true.
I believe X is true is not the same as saying X is true. X is true is a claim that is believed.

Can you give me an example of a belief that doesn't involve a claim that is being believed?

I believe that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God.

Can you give me an example of a claim that isn't being believed (=accepted as true) that isn't also a lie?

No, I cannot give you an example because all claims are believed (accepted as true) but not all beliefs are claimed to be true.

 

[CG Didymus]

But the use of the word "belief" in religions isn't like that at all.
I interpreted the use of "belief" by the OP in the sense of "accepting as true". Not as "maybe true" or "51% chance of being true" or even only "likely true".
But rather accepting as factually true.

When someone says "I believe evolution is false and that adam and eve were the first humans".
That person is making a claim / expressing a belief concerning external reality, which would apply to everybody living in that reality.

Then why all the meaningless irritating quotes from Bible, Qur'an, Kitab-i-Aqdas or other books of purported sayings of uneducated persons? They are trying to prove that what they believe is universal truth. They expect one to take that as truth. In that case it is a claim. They should just say they believe this way. Why do they go beyond it?

Yeah, when a person in a religion says something like, "I believe Jesus is the Son God." They sure seem to be saying something they believe is true. Do they "assert" it? Do they "claim" it? If they can't, then they really don't believe it. At least that is my belief.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Assertions (claims):

Actually God created Adam and Eve and told them the truth.
That was the beginning of the truth for people.
Evolution is just a false religion, repackaged paganism.

Statements of belief:

I believe God created Adam and Eve and told them the truth.
I believe That was the beginning of the truth for people.
I believe Evolution is just a false religion, repackaged paganism.

Again, I don't see how it's different in a practical sense.

When one asserts something, it implies one believes it.
When one believes something, it implies an assertion which is being believed.

Where "belief" means "to accept as true".

In both cases one expresses something that one accepts as true / factual.

Sure, the person who makes the assertions also believes what he is asserting

Exactly

but the person who states his beliefs is not asserting that they are true

Except that they are, by expressing that belief, which means to accept as true.
You are just making a semantic argument here.

To accept what you say, would mean that it is possible to express a belief while asserting the belief to be false.
That's just self-contradicting.
Why would you believe something without thinking it is true?

Therein lies the difference between a claim and a belief.

This difference seems to be nothing but semantics.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

No, X is not a claim, not unless you claim it is true.

The "belief" part is what implies you thinking the claim is true.

Yes, when you make claim X, you also believe X is true. Why would you claim it if you did not believe it is true?

Likewise, why would you believe the claim if you don't think the claim is true.
It's a two-way street.

 

[PureX]

I think a lot of you really want to argue with what other people believe. Which is why you can't/won't distinguish between their asserting their belief about a truth claim, and actually asserting a truth claim. You want to wallow in your own righteousness by exposing their "wrongness" so badly that you really don't care if they are offering their opinion on a truth claim (belief) or actually imposing that truth claim. Any excuse to attack them is good enough.

The problem with this is that there is no respect at all for the opinions or beliefs of others. In fact, it's all about disrespecting and deligitimizing them. Putting their beliefs down to puff up your own. You claim it's about finding the truth when in fact it's just about serving the ego.

 

[Trailblazer]

Again, I don't see how it's different in a practical sense.

When one asserts something, it implies one believes it.
When one believes something, it implies an assertion which is being believed.

Where "belief" means "to accept as true".

In both cases one expresses something that one accepts as true / factual.

When one asserts a belief then they are making a CLAIM.
When one believes something without asserting it then they are not making a claim.

In both cases one expresses something that one accepts as true / factual, but the difference is in the way a person expresses the belief.

On a forum, you cannot assume someone is making a claim. If you ask them and they say they are not making a claim it is rude to keep telling them they are making a claim.

Only the person who wrote the post knows if they are making a claim or not.

Except that they are, by expressing that belief, which means to accept as true.
You are just making a semantic argument here.

To accept what you say, would mean that it is possible to express a belief while asserting the belief to be false.
That's just self-contradicting.
Why would you believe something without thinking it is true?

Of course they believe it is true but that is not the same as claiming it is true.
I might believe I am going to win the lottery but I would never claim that since I cannot prove it is true.
Likewise, I believe that God exists but I would never claim that God exists because I cannot prove that God exists.

By expressing a belief one has accepted as true they are not 'necessarily' making a claim.
They might be making a claim or they might simply be sharing their belief.

 

[Trailblazer]

The "belief" part is what implies you thinking the claim is true.

Of course if you are making a claim you would believe the claim is true.

Likewise, why would you believe the claim if you don't think the claim is true.
It's a two-way street.

Of course you would believe the claim is true if you are making a claim.

The point is that all expressed beliefs are not claims.
I believe I am going to win the lottery is true but I would never claim that I am going to win the lottery since I cannot prove it is true.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Sure, the person who makes the assertions also believes what he is asserting, but the person who states his beliefs is not asserting that they are true
Therein lies the difference between a claim and a belief.

I believe that this is nonsense.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Of course if you are making a claim you would believe the claim is true.

And if you are expressing a belief, you are saying what claim you are believing is true.

As said I so many times, you can't have one without the other.

There is no practical difference. Only a semantic one.

The point is that all expressed beliefs are not claims.

Another point is that you can't have a belief without a claim that is being believed.
Semantic trickery does not change the fact that claims have a burden of proof.

I believe I am going to win the lottery is true

So the claim is "i will win the lottery" and you believe said claim.

but I would never claim that I am going to win the lottery since I cannot prove it is true.

Since when do claims require being able to PROVE it to be true?