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Is a Belief a Claim?

Nimos

Well-Known Member
The glitch is... For those of us that have investigated it and found it not to necessarily be true, what do Baha'is do with us. It is an endless argument. The gives their reasons and what they believe (claim) to be evidence, and us skeptics tell them that their "evidence" doesn't prove anything. On and on it goes. Then one Baha'i has been going on and on about that she isn't "claiming", it is only her "belief". Again, in essence, what's the difference? We still question her as to why she "believes" it. So, she might as well "claim" that, for her, it is the truth.
It is pretty messy, because of how beliefs and claims are used, especially in a religious context.

There would be no issue if it was something else, let's say I told you:

"I believe that many Universes exist with all kinds of aliens in them"

You would never (normally) treat such a statement as if I were making a claim, it is obvious or assumed from the sentences that I have no clue whether this is true or not.

But at its core, it is no different than a religious belief.

And you could ask me, just as you could any religious person.. "Why do you believe that?"

This would force me to reveal on which basis this belief rests, which in 99% of the cases would lead to me making a claim or simply saying that it is just what I think, in which case, there is nothing there to be discussed and the belief is irrational.

So it doesn't get anyone off the hook so to speak, essentially all foundations for a belief have to withstand scrutiny. But again, doesn't change the fact that a belief and a claim aren't the same.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Then we should ask @Trailblazer if she would claim any privileges or favours for her religion based on the claim that she has "proven" it to herself.
I do not claim that I have proven it it myself. I say I have proven it to myself. Everything one says is not a claim.

Say: utter words so as to convey information, an opinion, a feeling or intention, or an instruction.
say means - Google Search

Claim
: state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.
claim means - Google Search
(And she also recently retracted her claim that her belief is rational.)
Can you quote me saying that?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Yeah. Claims are beliefs that you think other people ought to accept. Like, they are "beliefs+." As such, they not only deserve scrutiny concerning whether it is a valid belief, but must also make it through the gauntlet of others' skepticism.
but beliefs are not claims you think other people ought to accept, not unless you state your beliefs AS A CLAIM.

Belief: I believe that Jesus rose from the dead.
Claim: Jesus rose from the dead.
 

vulcanlogician

Well-Known Member
but beliefs are not claims you think other people ought to accept, not unless you state your beliefs AS A CLAIM.

Belief: I believe that Jesus rose from the dead.
Claim: Jesus rose from the dead.

Philosophers are prone to see things that way. Beliefs and claims are propositions about the world. And, as such, both deserve the same level of scrutiny.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
I do not claim that I have proven it it myself. I say I have proven it to myself. Everything one says is not a claim.
But in this case, it is :D

Replacing "claim" with "say" in that sentence doesn't make it less of a claim.

You can't prove anything to yourself isolated from everyone else, it doesn't work like that.

Either you have proven something or you haven't. If your proof is valid, it should convince everyone else. If anyone can find errors in your proof it is not valid.

Proof definition:
a. evidence or argument establishing a fact or the truth of a statement.

b. the act or process of proving; a testing or trying of something. 2. anything serving or tending to establish the truth of something, or to convince one of its truth; conclusive evidence.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
But in this case, it is :D
Replacing "claim" with "say" in that sentence doesn't make it less of a claim.
Why is it a claim?

Claim: state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.
claim means - Google Search

How could I provide evidence or proof that I have proven it to myself?
I can only SAY I have, I cannot prove I have.
You can't prove anything to yourself isolated from everyone else, it doesn't work like that.
It sure as hell does work that way. Baha'is believe in what is called independent investigation of truth, which means that one should always investigate the truth for themselves if they want to know the truth. People should never take anyone else's word for what is true.

"The first Baha’i principle is the independent investigation of reality. Not found in any sacred Book of the past, it abolishes the need for clergy and sets us free from imitation and blind adherence to unexamined, dogmatic beliefs. Baha’is believe that no soul should follow ancestral or traditional beliefs without first questioning and examining their own inner landscape. Instead, the first Baha’i principle gives each individual the right and the duty to investigate and decide what they believe on their own."

Independent Investigation of Truth
Either you have proven something or you haven't. If your proof is valid, it should convince everyone else. If anyone can find errors in your proof it is not valid.

Proof definition:
a. evidence or argument establishing a fact or the truth of a statement.

b. the act or process of proving; a testing or trying of something. 2. anything serving or tending to establish the truth of something, or to convince one of its truth; conclusive evidence.
I have proven it to myself so I believe it, but that does not mean that the evidence I used to prove it to myself will be accepted by others.
It is not logical to say that my proof is invalid just because it does not convince everyone else. It would be logically impossible to convince everyone else with the same evidence since all people have their own way of thinking and their confirmation biases that prevent them from looking at the evidence the same way that I did.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Can you quote me saying that?
"No, I do not need to know cladistics in order to be a rational person, and it certainly does not help me to be a more spiritual person, which is all I really care about. A need to be right is death to humility, which is one of the most important attributes of spirituality." in poll: are you an ape?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
(And she also recently retracted her claim that her belief is rational.)
TB: Can you quote me saying that?
"No, I do not need to know cladistics in order to be a rational person, and it certainly does not help me to be a more spiritual person, which is all I really care about. A need to be right is death to humility, which is one of the most important attributes of spirituality." in poll: are you an ape?
I did not retract my claim that my belief is rational.

I said I do not need to know cladistics in order to be a rational person, and knowing cladistics does not help me to be a more spiritual person, which is all I really care about. I did not say that my belief is not rational.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
TB: Can you quote me saying that?

I did not retract my claim that my belief is rational.

I said I do not need to know cladistics in order to be a rational person, and knowing cladistics does not help me to be a more spiritual person, which is all I really care about. I did not say that my belief is not rational.
Not directly but it follows from what you said.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
I have proven it to myself so I believe it, but that does not mean that the evidence I used to prove it to myself will be accepted by others.
But the evidence is the foundation of the proof, so if I or someone else can demonstrate why your evidence is not sufficient or valid to back up your proof, it should also be insufficient for you. Important to underline here, is that im not talking about an opinion, but something which is demonstrably wrong. This includes misinterpretation of evidence, logic, and reasoning.

Because the rules used to evaluate these things apply to us all and are unbiased. So for example, let's say we had to evaluate the following conclusion (Marked with red):

Assume only the following statements and consider them as facts:
  • All reptiles lay eggs
  • All reptiles are vertebrates
  • All snakes are reptiles
  • All vertebrates have brains
  • Some reptiles hatch their eggs themselves
  • Most reptiles have two lungs
  • Many snakes only have one lung
  • Cobras are poisonous snakes
  • All reptiles are animals
Conclusion: Some snakes hatch their eggs themselves.

A. The conclusion follows
B. The conclusion doesn't follow


There is only one correct answer to this, which is (B), doesn't matter what each of us thinks, it can be demonstrated that if someone said (A) they are wrong.

The same can be done with evidence, so even if you believe that some evidence supports your claim or proof. If it can be demonstrated that these ain't conclusive, then they are not good evidence for that claim and therefore not proof as they could just as well point to something else.

It would be logically impossible to convince everyone else with the same evidence since all people have their own way of thinking and their confirmation biases that prevent them from looking at the evidence the same way that I did.
This is why we use critical thinking methods to evaluate claims and get rid of as many of these biases as possible. The solution is not to convince anyone and therefore conclude that it is impossible so therefore we are entitled to jump to our own proofs. But rather to use these methods to demonstrate why something is wrong and why someone has drawn a wrong conclusion. Doesn't mean they are ultimately wrong, simply that they have insufficient evidence to back up their claim/proof.

Imagine if science worked by people just proving things to themselves, it would be chaos. Einstein proved his theory by presenting conclusive evidence for it and came up with predictions etc. There is no one arguing about whether he was right or not, there might be special situations where they don't work, like in black holes etc. But the evidence and proof for what he said is overwhelming to such a degree that no one questions it and if they do, they can try to recreate his experiments.

It sure as hell does work that way. Baha'is believe in what is called independent investigation of truth, which means that one should always investigate the truth for themselves if they want to know the truth. People should never take anyone else's word for what is true.
And that is correct, you should do that. But that doesn't mean that you should draw your own conclusions or be free of scrutiny. Again it is no different than what Einstein did, he had some ideas and put them to the test because he didn't agree with or found issues with Newton's work, so he investigated things himself and when he was done, he presented it to the rest of the scientific community for them to rip it apart/find errors in it etc.

I think you might misunderstand what is meant by this because even the Bahai's would still have to live up to the logical and reasoning rules, again these are unbiased methods.

Why is it a claim?

Claim: state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.
claim means - Google Search

How could I provide evidence or proof that I have proven it to myself?
I can only SAY I have, I cannot prove I have.
You don't have to provide evidence for you having proven it to yourself, again because that is impossible and not how proofs work.

When you use the word "proof/proven" it automatically assumes that you can present conclusive evidence that supports the proof. And these can be evaluated by anyone.

Take a very simple example:

You want to prove to "yourself" that you can climb a mountain, so you do it.

This proves that you can do it, not only for yourself but for everyone else at the same time. There is no such thing as a separate proof that only applies to an individual, either you can demonstrate it and convince everyone that you can do it or you can't.
 
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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
And you could ask me, just as you could any religious person.. "Why do you believe that?"

This would force me to reveal on which basis this belief rests, which in 99% of the cases would lead to me making a claim or simply saying that it is just what I think, in which case, there is nothing there to be discussed and the belief is irrational.

Replacing "claim" with "say" in that sentence doesn't make it less of a claim.
I know it means a lot to TB, but like you "say", it doesn't make it less of a claim. When a Christian says, asserts, believes, claims that Jesus is the Son of the Living God I take that to mean that they are saying, asserting, believing, or claiming that Jesus is truly and factually the Son of God.

And then I ask them, "How do you know that?" And they have reasons. No different for a Baha'i. When a Baha'i says that Baha'u'llah is the messenger from God for this day and age, I understand them to be saying something they believe, claim and assert if true and factual. And they do give me reasons as to why they claim that is true.

Usually, they say it's because of his writings, his mission, his character and a whole slew of fulfilled prophecies. But whatever, she doesn't believe she's making any claims. Fine. But in every one of her threads people ask, "Why do you believe that?" "Why do you think that is true?" And there is always someone who makes the mistake of saying, "Why do you claim Baha'u'llah is a messenger of God?"
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
When a Christian says, asserts, believes, claims that Jesus is the Son of the Living God I take that to mean that they are saying, asserting, believing, or claiming that Jesus is truly and factually the Son of God.
And I agree, that ultimately it will end up in a claim one way or another, all beliefs do that unless it is a guess. But from a "technical" point of view, I still think one ought to keep them separated. Because you can discuss something within the context of religious texts themselves that wouldn't automatically be considered claims, but rather interpretations/beliefs.

And then I ask them, "How do you know that?" And they have reasons. No different for a Baha'i. When a Baha'i says that Baha'u'llah is the messenger from God for this day and age, I understand them to be saying something they believe, claim and assert if true and factual. And they do give me reasons as to why they claim that is true.
Yeah, this would just be the normal way that a chat would go, again no different than any other.

Were we speaking about aliens and ufos, it would probably also start with us declaring our beliefs and then we would move into our reasons/claims for why we believe what we do.

Usually, they say it's because of his writings, his mission, his character and a whole slew of fulfilled prophecies.
These would be the evidence for the claims that they present, which ultimately is why they reach their conclusion, again exactly like any other belief. And we put them under scrutiny to see if they hold water.

But whatever, she doesn't believe she's making any claims. Fine. But in every one of her threads people ask, "Why do you believe that?" "Why do you think that is true?" And there is always someone who makes the mistake of saying, "Why do you claim Baha'u'llah is a messenger of God?"
I won't put words in her mouth, but to me, it seems the big issue is that she looks at proofs as if this is something that can apply to an individual. But that is basically what an unjustified belief is, you have convinced yourself that something is true, without actually having put it to the test.
 

ReformedGuitarist

New Member
I suppose it is possible to believe something without asserting it as truth (making a claim). However, I see no reason to believe in something unless you think it's true, and if you think it's true, I see no reason to express it in a way that discourages people from examining wether or not they think it's true.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
To all those who (still) claim that a belief is the same as a claim, consider this:

If a believer says "there is a god" (claim) and you answer with "I don't believe that", do you make a claim that the statement of the believer is false? I.e. do you make the claim that there is no god? Do you have a burden of proof?

I don't want to fall in that double edged sword, that's why I distinguish between claim and belief.
 

Alekdar

Member
M
Inspired by something I read in another thread here, where a member stated they're not making a claim, but expressing a belief, and another member, in the ever so civil and polite demeanor of so many of our debaters here, replied, "a claim."

If I tell you that I believe something with no expectation for you to believe that which I do, am I making a claim? Does that belief have to be supported by objective evidence? Does the belief need to be falsifiable?

Why or why not?
My Claim would be: i believe in something, how much weight does it carry this belief? IDUNNO, so i claim that i believe, not very potent in my opinion, i'd prefer to claim facts, as in: I claim that the earth is round, for this for this and for this...
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
They are different.
Inspired by something I read in another thread here, where a member stated they're not making a claim, but expressing a belief, and another member, in the ever so civil and polite demeanor of so many of our debaters here, replied, "a claim."

If I tell you that I believe something with no expectation for you to believe that which I do, am I making a claim? Does that belief have to be supported by objective evidence? Does the belief need to be falsifiable?

Why or why not?


A claim is a statement that is going to be true or false but there are several groups (semantic axis and so on) they can be broken down into to determine if they are true.

Beliefs are complicated by philosophical concepts but you can break them down into faith or evidence beliefs.

Evidence will involve inductive reasoning, like you believe the sun will rise because you have evidence it rose every past day.
Or more deductive like "there is a red car driving down the street", so you believe there is a red car driving down the street.

Faith applies to religious beliefs but can be held with other beliefs as well. There are no limits, you can have faith the sun will go nova next week or Aliens crashed in Roswell because you are convinced the books that claim it are true. The book is some form of evidence so it's a bit grey. You then have to do more research to prove the theory false, prove the book may be false, contrast it with original newspaper reports and military releases, now you are going towards evidence.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Here are some claims:

Actually God created Adam and Eve and told them the truth.
That was the beginning of the truth for people.
Evolution is just a false religion, repackaged paganism.

Please explain to me the practical difference between those 3 statements and the following:

I believe Actually God created Adam and Eve and told them the truth.
I believe That was the beginning of the truth for people.
I believe Evolution is just a false religion, repackaged paganism.


I say that the bolded parts are all implied in the way you phrased the claims.
They just aren't mentioned explicitely. Adding them doesn't really change anything in a practical sense.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I think most atheists somehow got the idea that all beliefs shared on a forum automatically become claims, but a belief is not a claim unless a believer declares the belief to be true.
When you believe X, is X not a claim?
When you make claim X, is X then not something you believe to be true?

How can you have a claim without the claim being believed (unless you are lying off course)?
How can you have a belief without a claim being being the subject of the belief?

Can you give me an example of a belief that doesn't involve a claim that is being believed?
Can you give me an example of a claim that isn't being believed (=accepted as true) that isn't also a lie?
 
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