Is a nation only safe when "manly men" are allowed to be men? *snicker*

[Iti oj]

This mentality makes my blood boil. This menatality makes me a victim of sexism everyday. I don't see this as an exclusive feminist topic.

 

[Alceste]

Hmmm...I'd more than happily take the beer and the football.
Not sure I want the bricks, gun, or lack of nuts though.

Well you might just have to at least take up shooting. The only specific activities Nicky mentioned that real men do that feminists are ruining were having a beer while watching football with the guys and shooting things. You wouldn't want Nicky thinking you're a sissy boy, would you?

There are studies showing the differences and scientific opinions. With the internet they are easy to find and you wouldn't have to deal with my interpretation.


I believe one of the differences is that men are more aggressive then women and that certain aggression relieves stress in men.

It's a good general rule for the one making the claim in a debate to be specific and present supporting evidence. Care to share?

I also think there is more overlap than difference, and that the significance of the minor differences there are tend to be exaggerated.

I used to have this debate with my brother when we were kids - his position was that "men are stronger than women". My position was that SOME men are stronger than SOME women." His position was not logically sound. It made much of the fact that the bell curve of male and female physical strength does not perfectly overlap. He wanted to argue that there was NO overlap. In fact, there is more overlap than outlying super-strong men and ultra-weak women.

 

[bobhikes]

It's a good general rule for the one making the claim in a debate to be specific and present supporting evidence. Care to share?

I also think there is more overlap than difference, and that the significance of the minor differences there are tend to be exaggerated.

I used to have this debate with my brother when we were kids - his position was that "men are stronger than women". My position was that SOME men are stronger than SOME women." His position was not logically sound. It made much of the fact that the bell curve of male and female physical strength does not perfectly overlap. He wanted to argue that there was NO overlap. In fact, there is more overlap than outlying super-strong men and ultra-weak women.

I've found that it is best if people do there own honest research, especially on the RF, people discount just because of the site it was gotten from or a word being spelled wrong.

I actively seek out as many views that oppose my belief as support it. I would recommend more people do this.

Facts
Men and Women are physically different
Men and Women have a different chemical make up.
Because of this and enviroment men and women Think differently.

Whether these differences are major or minor, to understand and treat the person properly these differences need to be embraced.

 

[Alceste]

I've found that it is best if people do there own honest research, especially on the RF, people discount just because of the site it was gotten from or a word being spelled wrong.

I actively seek out as many views that oppose my belief as support it. I would recommend more people do this.

Facts
Men and Women are physically different
Men and Women have a different chemical make up.
Because of this and enviroment men and women Think differently.

Whether these differences are major or minor, to understand and treat the person properly these differences need to be embraced.

I'm simply asking what "honest research" you yourself have done to come up with this particular argument. If you don't want to share it, fine, but the consequence is that I'm not likely to take it very seriously. I'm a link clicker.

Want to hear a funny thing? Research has found that people who are most confident in their ability to withstand the temptations of cognitive bias tend to be the worst at actually doing so. Isn't that a pain?

Me, I'm doing it and I know it. I've made peace with it. It's unavoidable. But I try to compensate for my selection bias by making sure that whatever I read is a very high quality of stuff. Practice that long enough and you eventually might be able to sniff out BS even when it agrees with you.

People think differently. I agree. And we need to understand that we can't lump huge categories of people together and assume we know how everyone in that category thinks based on a superficial attribute like a penis or boobs. We have to ask each individual "So, what do YOU think?" and be prepared for pretty much anything.

 

[bobhikes]

I'm simply asking what "honest research" you yourself have done to come up with this particular argument. If you don't want to share it, fine, but the consequence is that I'm not likely to take it very seriously. I'm a link clicker.

Want to hear a funny thing? Research has found that people who are most confident in their ability to withstand the temptations of cognitive bias tend to be the worst at actually doing so. Isn't that a pain?

Me, I'm doing it and I know it. I've made peace with it. It's unavoidable. But I try to compensate for my selection bias by making sure that whatever I read is a very high quality of stuff. Practice that long enough and you eventually might be able to sniff out BS even when it agrees with you.

People think differently. I agree. And we need to understand that we can't lump huge categories of people together and assume we know how everyone in that category thinks based on a superficial attribute like a penis or boobs. We have to ask each individual "So, what do YOU think?" and be prepared for pretty much anything.

You tuned me out, I can't take you serious after bringing up your superficial attributes as a reason. You pretty much discounted everything I said into 2 words.

 

[Alceste]

You tuned me out, I can't take you serious after bringing up your superficial attributes as a reason. You pretty much discounted everything I said into 2 words.

You said we are physically different. We're not. We've all got the same number of limbs and orifices, most of the same organs in the same places, hair on our heads etc. and if it weren't for certain customs of dressing, you would be able to tell which was which from fifty yards away, although you would definitely be able to say "human". The only physical differences we have are our reproductive organs. That is superficial compared to the rest.

Likewise, we all have the exact same chemical make-up. We all produce testosterone and estrogen. It just so happens that men tend to produce more of one and women tend to have more of the other. Apart from those two, we have hundreds of other hormones in common in roughly similar proportions. So again, placing exaggerated significance on superficial differences.

I hope that was thorough enough reply to convince you that I did indeed take in what you wrote before dismissing the specific differences you reference as superficial.

 

[Daemon Sophic]

.....
..... Has feminism destroyed men from being men? From voting rights to owning property to entering the work force to equal pay for equal work to challenging sexist stereotypes of women to [add feminist stance here]. Do you agree with Nick Adams that feminism doesn't allow the nation to be safe or restricts America from winning?

No need to get your panties in a wad ladies (or in MysticSang'ha's case, your leather straps). As long as I'm around (checks load of double-barreled shotgun before swinging the breach shut with one hand), America the beautiful is safe enough.


And as for winning? I gotch yer Win right here. BOOYAH!

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You said we are physically different. We're not. We've all got the same number of limbs and orifices, most of the same organs in the same places, hair on our heads etc. and if it weren't for certain customs of dressing, you would be able to tell which was which from fifty yards away, although you would definitely be able to say "human". The only physical differences we have are our reproductive organs. That is superficial compared to the rest.

Likewise, we all have the exact same chemical make-up. We all produce testosterone and estrogen. It just so happens that men tend to produce more of one and women tend to have more of the other. Apart from those two, we have hundreds of other hormones in common in roughly similar proportions. So again, placing exaggerated significance on superficial differences.

I hope that was thorough enough reply to convince you that I did indeed take in what you wrote before dismissing the specific differences you reference as superficial.

How Male and Female Brains Differ
Male and Female Behavior Deconstructed | ucsf.edu
IJ TRANSGENDER - Effects of Cross-Sex Hormone Treatment on Emotionality in Transsexuals

 

[Alceste]

How Male and Female Brains Differ
Male and Female Behavior Deconstructed | ucsf.edu
IJ TRANSGENDER - Effects of Cross-Sex Hormone Treatment on Emotionality in Transsexuals

Thanks for the links. They seem to affirm my claim that apart from out reproductive organs we are in fact dealing with almost entirely the same biological and chemical attributes, but with differing quantities. Men produce estrogen and women produce testosterone. The quantity of various hormones certainly affects behavior, but the big picture is a pair of overlapping bell curves, not two completely separate spheres. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Thanks for the links. They seem to affirm my claim that apart from out reproductive organs we are in fact dealing with almost entirely the same biological and chemical attributes, but with differing quantities. Men produce estrogen and women produce testosterone. The quantity of various hormones certainly affects behavior, but the big picture is a pair of overlapping bell curves, not two completely separate spheres. That's all I'm saying.

I agree, I don't think it's in anyway helpful to conduct research with the preconception that there are only two distinct sexes.

 

[Alceste]

I agree, I don't think it's in anyway helpful to conduct research with the preconception that there are only two distinct sexes.

I agree, and it is also unhelpful to conduct a life with the expectation that "real" women ought to behave one way and "real" men ought to behave some other way.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Thanks for the links. They seem to affirm my claim that apart from out reproductive organs we are in fact dealing with almost entirely the same biological and chemical attributes, but with differing quantities. Men produce estrogen and women produce testosterone. The quantity of various hormones certainly affects behavior, but the big picture is a pair of overlapping bell curves, not two completely separate spheres. That's all I'm saying.

You're welcome.

It's just that the science shows that there are real differences between males and females and it's more than what we have in our pants. Hormones are amazingly powerful bio-chemicals and effect every part of our bodies, including brain structure, and also our emotions and behaviors. It doesn't mean that all males and all females act exactly the same way, but that there are some generalizations that we can make.

I used to buy into the argument that gender is a social construct back in my teens before I did more reading about the science of it and before I learn more about the condition of transsexualism.

 

[Sunstone]

Thanks for the links. They seem to affirm my claim that apart from out reproductive organs we are in fact dealing with almost entirely the same biological and chemical attributes, but with differing quantities. Men produce estrogen and women produce testosterone. The quantity of various hormones certainly affects behavior, but the big picture is a pair of overlapping bell curves, not two completely separate spheres. That's all I'm saying.

I agree with the metaphor of two overlapping bell curves. I would also put some finesse to it and say that sometimes the overlap is more centered, and sometimes it is more to one side or the other. That is, when discussing intelligence, I think sexes are equal. But when discussing, say, athletic ability, the top 1-5% of men may be stronger and faster than the top 1-5% of women. And when discussing, say, multi-tasking, the top 1-5% of women may be better at it than the top 1-5% of men. So, the overlap shifts, depending on the trait.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

You're welcome.

It's just that the science shows that there are real differences between males and females and it's more than what we have in our pants. Hormones are amazingly powerful bio-chemicals and effect every part of our bodies, including brain structure, and also our emotions and behaviors. It doesn't mean that all males and all females act exactly the same way, but that there are some generalizations that we can make.

I used to buy into the argument that gender is a social construct back in my teens before I did more reading about the science of it and before I learn more about the condition of transsexualism.

I admit I am ignorant about details of transsexualism, to me gender is a social construct, but gender identity is different and real. What transsexualism shows me is that there isn't two distinct sexes?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I admit I am ignorant about details of transsexualism, to me gender is a social construct, but gender identity is different and real. What transsexualism shows me is that there isn't two distinct sexes?

Since I've accepted that I'm a transsexual in my late teens, I've done a lot of research into the differences between males and females, looked into the research on the effects of hormone therapy and looked at the findings about transsexual brains. So this caused me to realize that males and females really do have a lot of differences between them and much of this is caused by hormones. People really underestimate the huge power of hormones over our bodies, psychology and behavior. No, it's not everything but it is really is a lot.

I think you mean that gender expression is a social construct? It is, to an extent. Also, I think you mean that intersex people show that there aren't two distinct sexes. Transsexuals aren't intersex. Intersex conditions are chromosomal abnormalities. Transsexuals haven't been shown to have those.

 

[Sunstone]

People really underestimate the huge power of hormones over our bodies, psychology and behavior. No, it's not everything but it is really is a lot.

Yup! The human brain should come with an owner's guide, and almost the first chapter should start off, "Your brain is always, always being bathed in hormones. There is no neutral time when it's not. And hormones not only affect how you feel, but how and what you are most likely to see."

Transsexuals aren't intersex. Intersex conditions are chromosomal abnormalities. Transsexuals haven't been shown to have those.

What? Transsexuals don't have chromosomal abnormalities? That's terrible! That's totally unacceptable! I stand staunchly in solidarity with transsexual rights to chromosomal abnormalities! This vital group of humanity should no longer be deprived of them!!!

By the way, what's a "chromosomal abnormality"?




Just kidding.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yup! The human brain should come with an owner's guide, and almost the first chapter should start off, "Your brain is always, always being bathed in hormones. There is no neutral time when it's not. And hormones not only affect how you feel, but how and what you are most likely to see."

Indeed! I read medical literature about cross-sex hormone therapy (I've been reading myself for years to begin testosterone therapy, myself) and I am simply astonished at the huge effects they have on all the systems of the body and our psychology. Actually, I just learned that since males have a larger brain by volume than females do, that testosterone therapy causes the brains of trans men to grow(!). That's amazing. Lol.

What? Transsexuals don't have chromosomal abnormalities? That's terrible! That's totally unacceptable! I stand staunchly in solidarity with transsexual rights to chromosomal abnormalities! This vital group of humanity should no longer be deprived of them!!!

By the way, what's a "chromosomal abnormality"?




Just kidding.

Lol. There actually a small group of (really just conservative trans women) trans people who promote transsexualism as a form of intersex. I guess they think that this adds validity to our claims. There's no evidence that it is an intersex condition, however. The latest research points to it being a sex differentiation disorder that occurs in the womb that somehow causes the brain to develop one way and the body to develop the other way.

Intersex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I think you mean that gender expression is a social construct? It is, to an extent. Also, I think you mean that intersex people show that there aren't two distinct sexes. Transsexuals aren't intersex. Intersex conditions are chromosomal abnormalities. Transsexuals haven't been shown to have those.

I think transsexuals also show there isn't two distinct sexes, if your gender identify doesn't match your physical sex, what does that show you?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I think transsexuals also show there isn't two distinct sexes, if your gender identify doesn't match your physical sex, what does that show you?

Transsexuals typically identity as "one or the other". Medically speaking in terms of biological sex, there's male, female and various intersex conditions. Transsexuals aren't intersex to my knowledge. When it comes to gender identity and gender expression (not the same thing), that's all over the place with humans (lol).

 

[Sunstone]

Indeed! I read medical literature about cross-sex hormone therapy (I've been reading myself for years to begin testosterone therapy, myself) and I am simply astonished at the huge effects they have on all the systems of the body and our psychology. Actually, I just learned that since males have a larger brain by volume than females do, that testosterone therapy causes the brains of trans men to grow(!). That's amazing. Lol.

One of the defining moments of my life, so to speak, was the first book I read that went in depth on the emotional and perceptual effects of hormones. Perhaps oddly enough, it was only a 700 page discussion of the role hormones and other neurotransmitters play in love, romance, and sex. But it opened my eyes to them, nevertheless.

Fun Fact: The bonding effects of oxytocin are now understood by scientists to be multiplied at least 10 times by the presence of estrogen. If that's true, it might have something to do with how reluctant many women are to have one-night stands, not to mention explain the old joke that Lesbians show up with a U-haul on their second date.