Is a person a Christian if...

[Daisies4me]

"JW's." That would make the Watchtower Society and its members Christians yet it denies so many basics of the faith!

(quote)

Hi hughwatt

"basics of" what faith? What Basics might you think that JW's deny?
I am aware of the fact that many people do not know the scriptures that JW's go by. Others at times are misled about what we actually do or do not believe.
The first post and title of this thread in mind, it seems that there are mixed ideas about what does or does not constitute a 'Christian'.

peace

 

[Daisies4me]

IMO, yes.

Many cite John 3:16 as being "the Bible in a nutshell", and the verse says "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.". If one asks what does believing in him entail, that can be answered by reading the Sermon On the Mount and Matthew 25's Parable of the Sheep & Goats, both sources which put heavy emphasis on action, especially to help the poor and downtrodden.

Many talk the talk, but far fewer it seemingly walk the walk, and it's the latter that more determines if one really believes in Jesus.

(quote)
Hi Metis

Good points. As Jesus told his listeners as to how they would recognize those who were truly a part of the 'flock' of God, two things stood out;
The fruitage they produced, and the love they have among themselves.
Matthew 7:15-20; John 13:35 bears these thoughts out for us.

peace to you

 

[RESOLUTION]

Yes, there can be and actually are more than just one covenant, but according to Torah and Tanakh, the Abrahamic Covenant and the Mosaic Law are "forever" and "perpetual", and that shouldn't be ignored.

So many of the books in the Tanakh, including Isaiah, put observance and non-observance of the Law as being paramount, so why would God punish those who do not honestly try and observe the entire Law (all 613) and then supposedly turn around and have it that the Law really wasn't important after all.

However, just a reminder that non-Jews are not bound by either, so it certainly is at the least hypothetically possible that God could have a covenant with them.

Hi Metis,

I am going to mention that which you hoped I would somehow avoid.

The fact is the whole of the law was to be obeyed and we know that no man but Jesus Christ, ever did that.
We also know the Father of the Faith, Abraham and his descendants through Isaac were not subject to the laws at the time Abraham found favour with God.
We know Abraham knew about God because God was there at the beginning with the first man Adam.
We know Abraham descended from Adam and that Abraham believed what God told him about his Son and this God himself accounted as righteousness toward Abraham.

Abraham put right with God through faith in Gods words.
When Moses lead the Israelites out of Egypt he did this because God remembered his promise to Abraham.
He gave them a covenant based on the laws. We also had the Prophets teachings included.
We had the sacrifices and the purpose God revealed them to the Israelites.
The Israelites the Jews knew that anyone who obeyed God and did what was right in Gods sight were acceptable to him.
For Abraham it was faith in Gods words and promises to him about his Son.
He believed God even to the point he knew death would not prevent God keeping his promise.

So we come to last covenant and main covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-34.

A covenant not like the old with Moses when he brought them out of Egypt.
But a covenant where God is known to man and his laws are written on their hearts and they obey God.
The Father of faith Abraham, the Prophets and all who truly knew God were anointed with Gods Holy Spirit.
Men believe what God has said about his Son Jesus Christ and God accounts this as righteousness taking away the sin
and allowing them to know him and live by faith according to the NT and the OT.

Outside the Abrahamic covenant (which were promises God made which required nothing but for Abraham to believe)
We see there are no covenants only those through the line of Isaac and to present day though the Messiah.
According to Gods own laws, Prophet's and teachings, there is only one possible line of covenants and it is covered completely within his word both OT and NT.

The NT being the fulfilling of the OT teachings of the Law and Prophets.
God made a covenant with Isaac and Jacob. He only blessed Ishmael he was never chosen and neither was any other religion nor any other covenants/ religious books valid.
I personally, see the OT as the ONLY book/s ever referred to by God, Jesus, The Prophets and disciples as Holy Scripture.
As the new way and covenant came in by the Messiah to live in Spirit and Truth. Then the word source living in mankind means Gods work is complete. The power of Gods Spirit
to lead and teach every man as he did the Prophet's and chosen of God throughout the OT.

The Words of God, (I believe the bible shows) as with Abraham and Moses should lead people to a living relationship with the One true and Almighty powerful God.

 

[RESOLUTION]

(quote)

Hi Resolution
while you are bringing up many topics all at once, (some of your statements I am in agreement with), but the main question that I have for you, is
what happens to infants when they die?

If we could focus on that issue for a moment --

You said: The will of God in Christ is to love one another and God. An infant cannot break the law of love for it cannot knowingly not love God or man in their infant form.

D: correct that infants cannot be a decision to obey God, or disobey. So how could an infant, born in sin, unable to choose, make a case for 'believing' or 'choosing' to serve God? They cannot. Baptism is only an outward symbol of a dedication to do the will of God ALREADY made in the heart..so, being born in sin, and the wage sin pays is death....they die and go to the grave, or 'hell', along with all others that have died, and they await the resurrection call like all other dead persons.

You really miss the points of truth in the bible. Adam and Eve could reason and think for themselves. Born not of flesh but the will of God. Gods word made flesh.
"Let us make man in our image." Adam and Eve could not be guilty of sin if they did not know right from wrong. There flesh died because of their sin as mans flesh was dead because of their sin. The sins a person commits as individuals is their own sin. God asked Adam and Eve how they knew they were naked.
Someone could have told them like the snake. But the truth is they had eaten from the tree and did not require being told for they now knew for themselves.
A baby is not born of 'sin' that is with sin it has committed. The flesh is fallen but that was Adams sin not the babies. A baby does not go to hell and neither do believers.
Dives and Lazarus show that there are two places with a great divide and Lazarus went off to the bosom of Abraham and Dives went to what you call hell a place of torment and
suffering because he ignored the needs of Lazarus in life.
A baby has done no harm and no sin. Why would God, our heavenly Father sent an infant to hell?
Your reasoning is wrong and your reasoning regarding what I have said is incorrect.

Jesus said: King James Bible
But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

If your reasoning was correct then all who infants and children who are not able to reason would go to hell.

Eternal life, is a free gift of God, you cannot earn it because all have sinned and through Adam fall short.

D: There is no difference, imo, between the death of an infant, than the death of an elderly person, etc., the same eventuality applies across the board, to everyone. Do you believe this to be true?
This is the point that I was asking you to clarify.

There is a great difference between the death of an infant and an elderly person. You see sin and death entered human flesh by ONE MAN, if God had not accounted Adams sin and death to all mankind then ONE MAN Jesus Christ could not pay the price for all mankind.
Jesus was called a second Adam because like Adam he was the Word made flesh he born by the will and power of God not the will of flesh.
Their Father was God himself. So when Jesus died his flesh suffered and his soul and body were the sacrifice in full. He obeyed God and was without sin both in the flesh and
in body, mind and spirit for he never sinned. He knew right from wrong like Adam but he never sinned against God.
He was perfect in body (flesh not born of the will of sinful flesh a human man and woman) like Adam and he had Gods nature being sinless.
A baby born of flesh inherits only Adams sinful flesh not the babys own doing. Christ has already said 'such is the Kingdom of heaven.'

So a child would find no place in hell for they have committed no sin to deserve hell. Till the law came man was not convicted of sin.
A Child knows no laws nor understands right or wrong. They are in the same innocent state as Adam and Eve before they knew right and wrong.
So you are wrong about the innocent and the elderly.

You said:

We also know that Elias and Moses appeared and spoke with Christ.

D: speaking of the transfiguration, it was a vision. Of things yet to come. Not a literal happening.
It also has no application on the question 'do infants go to heaven when they die'.

It is widely believed that Moses and Elias were informing Christ of the way he would die.
As God was in direct contact with Jesus and the Holy Spirit what reason could there be for the two Prophets to appear and talk with Christ?
It had a direct application of EVERYONE Going to hell after they die as does Dives and Lazarus related to men by Christ.
What you teach is not taught by Christ.

You see Jesus gave us the answer: The teachings of the law and Prophets can be summed up in two commandments.

1. Love God with all your heart.

2. Love your neighbour as yourself.

Which of these two commandments did those infants or children who die break?

So if they don't break those commandments what exactly are they going to hell for?

You said:So not everyone goes to the grave to wait for resurrection day. Moses and Elias appeared and spoke with Christ.

D: The Bible only mentions 2 resurrections both in the future, for Bible believers. The 'first' resurrection', (if there is a 'first', that indicated they would be others,) and the resurrection 'in the last day', or what is referred to as the general resurrection.

Since Adam sinned, ALL of his offspring are born in sin. Sin means death. All who die have the same 'eventuality' in the current system of things, until the Bible has been fulfilled, it remains to be so. see Ecclesiastes 3:19-20
These are the reasons that I question your statement. I don't see the same interpretation as you do.

There are no humans 'in heaven'. Mankind was created from the dust of the ground, and made to breathe the air and is to live forever upon the earth. Never did God say to Adam or Eve, "if you obey me, then you will go to heaven". That was never an option for them. They were to live on the earth, populate and cultivate it according to God's instructions to them.
There is no oxygen outside of the realm of this earth. It was not made for humans to exist in the heavenly realm of God. see Psalm 115:16-17.

So by your way of thinking explain Enoch? 24.And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Explain Elias
11.And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

God and Jesus are not deceptive.

So what is Jesus if there are no humans in heaven?

55But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

You do believe Jesus was fully human don't you? He rose from the dead and ascended into heaven and is at the right hand of God?
So why make a statement that there are no humans in heaven? You do believe about Enoch and Elijah/Elias were taken to heaven don't you to be with God?
Jesus came in the flesh...

God spoke the dust of the ground into being but most importantly in Genesis 2 we are told.
7.And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

God gave Adam and Eve the option of life and death. The tree of life being in the garden and them able to eat freely from that tree shows God meant for mankind to live forever.
Genesis 3:
22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Is their oxygen in heaven? Does God or the angels require oxygen to live?
The breath of life came from God not the dust. Nor anything formed and created in the earth.
God changed the earth when man fell. He changed the soil from which man was created the dust of the earth.
Was the Psalms written before or after the coming of the Messiah? Did Christ say he had fulfilled all the teachings of the laws and Prophets
about himself?
Psalm 115:16-17.
16The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

17The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Did Jesus descend into hell dead and silent? Was Abraham silent and dead when he spoke to Dives?

The body dies but Dives and Lazarus carried off by the Angels to where?

Spiritually dead people do not praise God whilst alive can they start after death?

The Word of God is here so we many know God and have a relationship with God, We are not to make the written word a god.
So the person is not a reality in our lives as the living God.

When Stephen said:
59.And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Do you think he was saying place me in hell?

25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

You, like everyone must decide for yourself. To live according to the word and in the word or what you are taught about the word.

 

[newone]

Hughwatt.... i would love to hear more about the "basics of the faith" that you referred to please.

 

[metis]

The fruitage they produced, and the love they have among themselves.

And not just love for themselves as we know that during the 2nd and 3rd centuries the church impressed others because of their willingness to help those in need even outside their flock, including lepers, thus jeopardizing their own lives as well.

 

[metis]

I am going to mention that which you hoped I would somehow avoid...

Actually, I've heard or read that "sermon" many times before, so it's hardly new. And as I posted before, new covenants can be fine and dandy but the Tanakh clearly states that the Abrahamic Covenant and the Mosaic Law are "forever", "perpetual", etc.

Let me therefore recommend that if you are going to use the Bible as a source, please don't go through it and just pick & choose what you want to believe about what's written or what somebody else may have told you to believe.

 

[Desert Snake]

Actually, I've heard or read that "sermon" many times before, so it's hardly new. And as I posted before, new covenants can be fine and dandy but the Tanakh clearly states that the Abrahamic Covenant and the Mosaic Law are "forever", "perpetual", etc.

Let me therefore recommend that if you are going to use the Bible as a source, please don't go through it and just pick & choose what you want to believe about what's written or what somebody else may have told you to believe.

The Abrahamic covenant isnt the Mosaic law. The label Abrahamic religious adherence is used, it actually doesnt infer Mosaic law adherence, necessarily.

 

[metis]

The Abrahamic covenant isnt the Mosaic law.

Obviously they are not one and the same or there wouldn't be different labels. However, the Mosaic Law restates the procedures that are required in the Abrahamic Covenant, such as the requirement of male circumcision on the eighth day after birth. This requirement is not found with Christianity and is optional in Islam.

We use the terminology "Abrahamic religions" in the context that both Christianity and Islam evolved out of Judaism and its adherence to the believe in one God.

 

[Desert Snake]

Obviously they are not one and the same or there wouldn't be different labels. However, the Mosaic Law restates the procedures that are required in the Abrahamic Covenant, such as the requirement of male circumcision on the eighth day after birth.

This would mean that many converts into Judaism would not actually be following the Mosaic law.

 

[metis]

This would mean that many converts into Judaism would not actually be following the Mosaic law.

Not really as the scriptures also have adult conversion necessitating circumcision.

 

[hughwatt]

Hughwatt.... i would love to hear more about the "basics of the faith" that you referred to please.

If you'd like to read a few short posts to start with and I'll reply when I have the time. These are exchanges between Daisies4me ("JW"), and I. #155, 160, 177 181, 192. Pay attention to what I said in reply to the WT quote about the Trinity and what D4me says in return.

 

[hughwatt]

(quote)

Hi hughwatt

"basics of" what faith? What Basics might you think that JW's deny?
I am aware of the fact that many people do not know the scriptures that JW's go by. Others at times are misled about what we actually do or do not believe.
The first post and title of this thread in mind, it seems that there are mixed ideas about what does or does not constitute a 'Christian'.

peace

See #252.

 

[Daisies4me]

You really miss the points of truth in the bible. Adam and Eve could reason and think for themselves. Born not of flesh but the will of God. Gods word made flesh.
"Let us make man in our image." Adam and Eve could not be guilty of sin if they did not know right from wrong. There flesh died because of their sin as mans flesh was dead because of their sin. The sins a person commits as individuals is their own sin. God asked Adam and Eve how they knew they were naked.

(quote)
Hi Res,
I think I asked you to narrow your comments to one topic, or one point at a time. (what happens to babies when they die)
This is impossible to carry on a conversation, when a post turns into a BOOK with no clear statements, going from one topic to another, with personal comments all mixed together-- I cannot converse unless you limit your sermons to the topic at hand, and less space.
Perhaps you don't realize the confusing muddled mess that you have presented, and it benefits no one, sorry.
Too many words, no clear points made and the topic is lost in the babbling brook...
NO offense intended, I hope you understand my meanings, and will limit your posts if you want an honest discussion, please.
Can't follow the all over the place confusion. God is a God of Order, not a God of confusion. I know you must have read that scripture....

peace


Someone could have told them like the snake. But the truth is they had eaten from the tree and did not require being told for they now knew for themselves.
A baby is not born of 'sin' that is with sin it has committed. The flesh is fallen but that was Adams sin not the babies. A baby does not go to hell and neither do believers.
Dives and Lazarus show that there are two places with a great divide and Lazarus went off to the bosom of Abraham and Dives went to what you call hell a place of torment and
suffering because he ignored the needs of Lazarus in life.
A baby has done no harm and no sin. Why would God, our heavenly Father sent an infant to hell?
Your reasoning is wrong and your reasoning regarding what I have said is incorrect.

Jesus said: King James Bible
But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.







There is a great difference between the death of an infant and an elderly person. You see sin and death entered human flesh by ONE MAN, if God had not accounted Adams sin and death to all mankind then ONE MAN Jesus Christ could not pay the price for all mankind.
Jesus was called a second Adam because like Adam he was the Word made flesh he born by the will and power of God not the will of flesh.
Their Father was God himself. So when Jesus died his flesh suffered and his soul and body were the sacrifice in full. He obeyed God and was without sin both in the flesh and
in body, mind and spirit for he never sinned. He knew right from wrong like Adam but he never sinned against God.
He was perfect in body (flesh not born of the will of sinful flesh a human man and woman) like Adam and he had Gods nature being sinless.
A baby born of flesh inherits only Adams sinful flesh not the babys own doing. Christ has already said 'such is the Kingdom of heaven.'

So a child would find no place in hell for they have committed no sin to deserve hell. Till the law came man was not convicted of sin.
A Child knows no laws nor understands right or wrong. They are in the same innocent state as Adam and Eve before they knew right and wrong.
So you are wrong about the innocent and the elderly.



It is widely believed that Moses and Elias were informing Christ of the way he would die.
As God was in direct contact with Jesus and the Holy Spirit what reason could there be for the two Prophets to appear and talk with Christ?
It had a direct application of EVERYONE Going to hell after they die as does Dives and Lazarus related to men by Christ.
What you teach is not taught by Christ.

You see Jesus gave us the answer: The teachings of the law and Prophets can be summed up in two commandments.

1. Love God with all your heart.

2. Love your neighbour as yourself.

Which of these two commandments did those infants or children who die break?

So if they don't break those commandments what exactly are they going to hell for?



So by your way of thinking explain Enoch? 24.And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Explain Elias
11.And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

God and Jesus are not deceptive.

So what is Jesus if there are no humans in heaven?

55But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

You do believe Jesus was fully human don't you? He rose from the dead and ascended into heaven and is at the right hand of God?
So why make a statement that there are no humans in heaven? You do believe about Enoch and Elijah/Elias were taken to heaven don't you to be with God?
Jesus came in the flesh...

God spoke the dust of the ground into being but most importantly in Genesis 2 we are told.
7.And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

God gave Adam and Eve the option of life and death. The tree of life being in the garden and them able to eat freely from that tree shows God meant for mankind to live forever.
Genesis 3:
22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Is their oxygen in heaven? Does God or the angels require oxygen to live?
The breath of life came from God not the dust. Nor anything formed and created in the earth.
God changed the earth when man fell. He changed the soil from which man was created the dust of the earth.
Was the Psalms written before or after the coming of the Messiah? Did Christ say he had fulfilled all the teachings of the laws and Prophets
about himself?
Psalm 115:16-17.
16The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

17The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Did Jesus descend into hell dead and silent? Was Abraham silent and dead when he spoke to Dives?

The body dies but Dives and Lazarus carried off by the Angels to where?

Spiritually dead people do not praise God whilst alive can they start after death?

The Word of God is here so we many know God and have a relationship with God, We are not to make the written word a god.
So the person is not a reality in our lives as the living God.

When Stephen said:
59.And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Do you think he was saying place me in hell?

25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

You, like everyone must decide for yourself. To live according to the word and in the word or what you are taught about the word.

 

[Desert Snake]

Obviously they are not one and the same or there wouldn't be different labels. However, the Mosaic Law restates the procedures that are required in the Abrahamic Covenant, such as the requirement of male circumcision on the eighth day after birth. This requirement is not found with Christianity and is optional in Islam.

We use the terminology "Abrahamic religions" in the context that both Christianity and Islam evolved out of Judaism and its adherence to the believe in one God.

Which infers that there isnt a covenant through Jesus, so forth.
Im not sure if you realize that you cant state that basics in the NT are basically false, then present your own ideas about what is required to be a christian. Its very contradictory.

 

[RESOLUTION]

Actually, I've heard or read that "sermon" many times before, so it's hardly new. And as I posted before, new covenants can be fine and dandy but the Tanakh clearly states that the Abrahamic Covenant and the Mosaic Law are "forever", "perpetual", etc.

Let me therefore recommend that if you are going to use the Bible as a source, please don't go through it and just pick & choose what you want to believe about what's written or what somebody else may have told you to believe.

Then comes the question what is meant by 'forever'.
As Christ shows not one single teaching of the law or the Prophets has been done away with.
But rather in the New Covenant they have all been fulfilled.
You grasp rigidly to something you are not understanding. Because without human beings what happens to the laws of Moses and the Gods Covenant with Abraham?
I don't pick and choose, rather I know the bible as a whole and what God is teaching through the bible.
The Covenant with Abraham was not made with the Gentiles. The Covenant of Moses was not made with the Gentiles.
Do you throw every truth out that God teaches to make your own truths become what you want them to be?
Because clearly the word of God through the Prophets show God was to bless all nations through Abraham. Including the last covenant which was foretold in Jeremiah.


31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Clearly, God is telling Israel and Judah, that the New Covenant will not be like the OLD Covenant made with Moses when they came out of Egypt.
So whilst you are standing on 'forever' or 'perpectual' you are deliberately ignoring the fact God has told you a new Covenant would be made 'NOT LIKE THE OLD ONE.'

The Old Covenants the chosen Son and the laws are themselves with their festivals pointing to the coming of the Messiah and the way in which God would restore his people
and gentiles added so that all mankind could know him.

King James Bible
And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.

You cannot and God will not let you say " Only Jews in Christ are Gods people" for Gods salvation is for all. We all know that it has been taught since the beginning of time and memorial
that whoever obeys God and does what is right is acceptable.


King James Bible
Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
Isaiah 14:1
When the LORD will have compassion on Jacob and again choose Israel, and settle them in their own land, then strangers will join them and attach themselves to the house of Jacob.

5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

8 The Lord God, which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him


What you hold to ignores the teachings God has given through his prophets. You cannot rely on your ancestors because they clearly did not obey God no matter what covenant was given
them they still broke them. Jeremiah 31:32.

None of the covenants were perfect in themselves in that men could not keep them.
But God shows the New Covenant to be different from all the rest.
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

The new Covenant in the Messiah Jesus Christ fit's perfectly within the New Covenant theme.
Jesus came to the Jews but just as they did with the Prophets they killed him. Do you see the continual pattern of none acceptance because the Jews hold on to their own way instead of seeking Gods way.

I am not 'cherry picking' the beliefs are founded on the teachings of God through the Prophets the Jews killed.
Showing a clear pattern of the Jews not being able to accept what God sends to them through his Prophets.
Since Christ there has been nothing new for the Jews. God has not changed his mind about whom he blesses and chooses. The Jews do not want to admit God has included all peoples in his last
Covenant or that the New Covenant is not discounted in favour of the OLD.

 

[RESOLUTION]

There is no book, you cannot admit you are wrong. You cannot answer what I actually wrote and even posted so the reply could not be seen.

No Daisies, you appear not to have the knowledge to actually reply. That what knowledge you have you were taught by man.
It is a fact the bible teaches that those who belong to God are taught by God and need no man to teach them.

King James Bible
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

The disciples were all filled with the Spirit and in Acts 2 we see when they received the Spirit these things happened.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

The passage doesn't just show that people baptised in the Spirit spoke as the Prophets according to Gods will.
But that Gods word and message through the Holy Spirit in man is for every person of every nation throughout the whole world.
Jesus warns us that when he returns many will say:-

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The Covenants and the laws have always been about love and relationship between man and God.
Christ actually the example he obeyed the law fully out of love for God and Truth.
Christ says, do as I do, rather than what you think I say.
He sums up the laws and teachings of the Prophets into two commandments.

Love God and Love your neighbour/Neighbor as yourself. According to Christ I believe he taught that if we do not have LOVE our works are in vain.

How do you know God loves you? It would be interesting to know.

 

[metis]

Ie you dont think that the Xian religion, or the teachings & tenets in the NT, is legitemate or real?

It's real and legitimate to those who believe it, and that's all that really matters.

 

[metis]

Which infers that there isnt a covenant through Jesus, so forth.

I actually didn't say that, plus there are numerous covenants of different types found throughout the scriptures, so whether there's a covenant through Jesus I simply cannot say.

 

[metis]

Then comes the question what is meant by 'forever'...

I think that we both know what the word "forever" means.

Also, I stopped reading right after that first sentence since I have no interest in reading sermons, as I mentioned in a previous post.