Is a person a Christian if...

[Desert Snake]

I actually didn't say that, plus there are numerous covenants of different types found throughout the scriptures, so whether there's a covenant through Jesus I simply cannot say.

The only inportance here is that the op is asking about Xianity, so its contextual.

 

[metis]

The only inportance here is that the op is asking about Xianity, so its contextual.

Which I gave my opinion on a while back on this thread, which a reflection that was based on what is actually found in the N.T., using John 3:16 as supporting my main point.

 

[pearl]

Yes, there can be and actually are more than just one covenant, but according to Torah and Tanakh, the Abrahamic Covenant and the Mosaic Law are "forever" and "perpetual", and that shouldn't be ignored.

It is my understanding that the Sinai covenant is conditional, and the covenant with Abraham is absolute, irrevocable and eternal. It is God who is obligated to his promise.

 

[metis]

It is my understanding that the Sinai covenant is conditional, and the covenant with Abraham is absolute, irrevocable and eternal. It is God who is obligated to his promise.

In regards to the Abrahamic Covenant:

Genesis 17:[7] And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

Genesis 17:[13] both he that is born in your house and he that is bought with your money, shall be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant.

Deuteronomy 7:[9] Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations,

Deuteronomy 29:[12] that you may enter into the sworn covenant of the LORD your God, which the LORD your God makes with you this day;
[13] that he may establish you this day as his people, and that he may be your God, as he promised you, and as he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.

Psalms 89:[34] I will not violate my covenant,


Psalms 105:[8] He is mindful of his covenant for ever,
of the word that he commanded, for a thousand generations,

Isaiah 44:[21] Remember these things, O Jacob,
and Israel, for you are my servant;
I formed you, you are my servant;
O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me.

Isaiah 45:[17] But Israel is saved by the LORD
with everlasting salvation;
you shall not be put to shame or confounded
to all eternity.

Isaiah 52:[1] Awake, awake,
put on your strength, O Zion;
put on your beautiful garments,
O Jerusalem, the holy city;
for there shall no more come into you
the uncircumcised and the unclean.

Isaiah 59:[20] "And he will come to Zion as Redeemer,
to those in Jacob who turn from transgression, says the LORD.
[21] "And as for me, this is my covenant with them, says the LORD: my spirit which is upon you, and my words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth, or out of the mouth of your children, or out of the mouth of your children's children, says the LORD, from this time forth and for evermore."

Isaiah 66:[22] "For as the new heavens and the new earth
which I will make
shall remain before me, says the LORD;
so shall your descendants and your name remain.


In regards to the Mosaic Law:


Deuteronomy 40:2: "your G-d…shall not add to what I have commanded you or subtract."

Dt. 13(1): "You shall be careful to observe, neither adding to it or subtracting."

Dt. 13(5): "His commandment you shall observe, holding fast to Him alone."

Dt. 29(28): "Concerns us and our descendents forever, that we may carry out all the words of this Law."

Joshua 1(5): "I will not leave or forsake you…(7) observe the entire Law … do not swerve from it."

Psalms 19(8): "The Law of the Lord is perfect… (10) the ordinances of the Lord are true; all of them are just."

Ps. 119(160): "permanence is Your words chief trait, each of Your just ordinances is everlasting."

Isaiah 42(21): "pleased the Lord in His justice to make His Law great and glorious."

Is. 66(17): "they who eat swine’s flesh … shall all perish."

Baruch 4(1): "the Law endures forever."


Obviously, this is not the full extent of verses, but it at least gives you an idea of what I was referring to.

Just to mention it so maybe some others may understand, there are 613 Commandments, all of which are found in Torah and can be seen here: Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

 

[pearl]

there are 613 Commandments

There is the initial statement of introduction-'I am the....followed by what God has done, who led you.....
and followed by the list of obligations for the people. It is conditional in the sense that it is required to meet these obligations.

The covenant with Abraham follows the way of 'cutting' a deal with men. The carcass is 'cut' in two, each party entering the covenant walks between the pieces, Only the 'angel of the lord' walked through. It is God who obligated himself, he cannot , and did not, break his promise.

 

[metis]

There is the initial statement of introduction-'I am the....followed by what God has done, who led you.....
and followed by the list of obligations for the people. It is conditional in the sense that it is required to meet these obligations.

Yes, but that does not invalidate the Covenant. Take a look at the general pattern in Isaiah which, generally speaking, goes like this:

We didn't keep the Law closely enough.
God punished us by sending us into exile.
A "remnant" returns to eretz Israel.
God says to follow the Law more carefully.

Notice that the repeated violations of the Law does not invalidate the Covenant, so if we don't follow the Law closely enough, we may well be punished for that but not abandoned.

So, why would God give us the Law, and then supposedly say the Law is no longer valid even though He punished us for violating it? And why would all Jews in essence be blamed for violating the Law? [rhetorical question]

BTW, are you familiar with the RCC rethinking on this?

 

[pearl]

So, why would God give us the Law, and then supposedly say the Law is no longer valid even though He punished us for violating it? And why would all Jews in essence be blamed for violating the Law? [rhetorical question]

I didn't say it was revoked, but that it is conditional. The whole story of creation in Gen illustrates that God had not abandon his people.

QUOTE="metis, post: 5181283, member: 47735"]BTW, are you familiar with the RCC rethinking on this?[/QUOTE]

Are you referring to the teaching that the Jews are saved in their covenant? If so , yes.

 

[metis]

Are you referring to the teaching that the Jews are saved in their covenant? If so , yes.

Yes. But PF seems to be even liberalizing that because the Catholic Catechism has it that if one understands basic Catholic teachings but rejects them, they cannot be saved. But PF's statements more have it that those outside the fold who act compassionately and justly may well be saved.

Hey, maybe I gotta chance to make it to heaven yet! Maybe you can put in a word for me, eh?

 

[pearl]

Hey, maybe I gotta chance to make it to heaven yet! Maybe you can put in a word for me, eh?

No worries, the Church does not save, God does.

Yes. But PF seems to be even liberalizing that because the Catholic Catechism has it that if one understands basic Catholic teachings but rejects them, they cannot be saved. But PF's statements more have it that those outside the fold who act compassionately and justly may well be saved.

Actually it goes back to Vatican II.

"From this mystery of unity it follows that all men and women who are saved share, though differently, in the same mystery of salvation in Jesus Christ through his Spirit. Christians know this through their faith, while others remain unaware that Jesus Christ is the source of their salvation. The mystery of salvation reaches out to them, in a way known to God, through the invisible action of the Spirit of Christ. Concretely, it will be in the sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their conscience that the members of other religions respond positively to God's invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ, even while they do not recognize or acknowledge him as their saviour (cf. AG 3,9,11)." Rome, 19 May 1991

Francis is a true remnant of Vatican II. He is criticized for wanting an all inclusive church. The first Holy Thursday he celebrate as pope he washed and kissed the feet of, among others, women and Muslims in prison. He reaches out to homosexuals, "who am I to judge".

 

[RESOLUTION]

I think that we both know what the word "forever" means.I

Also, I stopped reading right after that first sentence since I have no interest in reading sermons, as I mentioned in a previous post.

You accuse others and then when they answer you run and hide because you cannot substantiate the things you have said.
Unable to account for your accusations against me you try to make it about the 'word' and not the subject or the actual use of the word 'FOREVER' in the context of Gods word.
You were unable to explain the usage of the word 'forever' regarding Gods Covenants and his NEW Covenant made after those you were referring to.
Should you really be discussing anything to do with the bible if you cannot explain the things you said regarding Gods word relating to present and the Covenant which came later?
Nor able to discuss the Messianic teachings in light of he New Covenant.

Not a sermon since a sermon preaches on the bible as to relate what the teachings are, had there been a sermon from anyone you could not understand it, as you have shown
no ability to discern the truth of Gods Word in the OT relating to the future things of God after Moses and and Abraham.
Plus, how can anyone preach to someone who like yourself already claim superior knowledge of the bible.
Like teaching your grandmother to suck eggs. Surely you cannot claim to know the bible then suggest someone is preaching it to you?
If, that had been the case you yourself would be preaching when setting forth what you claim.

I questioned what you wrote, and you were unable to account for what you said so Gods word came true didn't it? You accuse me falsely for having shown you have no real understanding or answers
to what you say and believe about the bible.

As God has said: King James Bible
No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

You judged me and when challenged you could not answer.

 

[RESOLUTION]

No worries, the Church does not save, God does.



Actually it goes back to Vatican II.

"From this mystery of unity it follows that all men and women who are saved share, though differently, in the same mystery of salvation in Jesus Christ through his Spirit. Christians know this through their faith, while others remain unaware that Jesus Christ is the source of their salvation. The mystery of salvation reaches out to them, in a way known to God, through the invisible action of the Spirit of Christ. Concretely, it will be in the sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their conscience that the members of other religions respond positively to God's invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ, even while they do not recognize or acknowledge him as their saviour (cf. AG 3,9,11)." Rome, 19 May 1991

Francis is a true remnant of Vatican II. He is criticized for wanting an all inclusive church. The first Holy Thursday he celebrate as pope he washed and kissed the feet of, among others, women and Muslims in prison. He reaches out to homosexuals, "who am I to judge".

What does God and the devil had in common with each other? Those who repent and turn from their sin to Christ shall be saved.
Will the demons be saved? They believe in God. Would you kiss the feet of a demon? Love of God is selfless. It is not done as the Pharisee for the praise of men or too make oneself look good.
We hear so often that atheist have lead good lives giving to the poor and living decently because they believe it is the right thing to do.
Does that save them or believing in Jesus Christ?
Pcarl, explain your reasoning; - things regarding the things you posted and where is there love for God and Jesus within those posts?



EXAMPLE: Will an adulterer, liar or slandered be part of the Kingdom of Heaven?

 

[RESOLUTION]

It's real and legitimate to those who believe it, and that's all that really matters.

How would it matter to God?

 

[metis]

Francis is a true remnant of Vatican II. He is criticized for wanting an all inclusive church.

I finished reading an excellent biography on him, and what's interesting is that he came from a conservative Catholic family but fairly quickly changed when he began going to the barrios in Buenos Aries as a priest and then a bishop, seeing the immense poverty and suffering there. Archbishop Romero had a very similar enlightening in El Salvador.

So, this is especially where I think these two have been coming from, thus less concerned about politically-correct dogma-- and for what it's worth, I applaud them and their approach.

 

[pearl]

EXAMPLE: Will an adulterer, liar or slandered be part of the Kingdom of Heaven?

When we 'face' God for judgment I do not believe he keeps a check off record but judges on who one has become, the whole picture of, who we are will determine our real guilt before God. To your example of the adulterer; a guy looses his job and dreading having to tell his wife, stops off at bar and has a few. He is approached by a woman offering sympathy, one thing leads to another and he has committed adultery. And then remorse, asks God for forgiveness, if Catholic goes to confession, confesses to his wife. He feels remorse because of who he is. There is no real guilt before God. There is a couple who work together and plan to have an affair. There is no remorse, it is who they have become, there is real guilt before God.

Love of God is selfless.

If one claims to love God and does not love the sinner, one is a liar.

Would you kiss the feet of a demon?

If this is from my post, are you suggesting that the Muslim whom the Pope kissed the feet of, is a demon?

Does that save them or believing in Jesus Christ?

All salvation is through Christ, there is no 'outside' of Christ, even though one does not acknowledge Christ.

Your post reads as if you are afraid someone is going to get away without due punishment.

 

[metis]

You judged me and when challenged you could not answer.

I did not "judge" you, so since there's some sort of disconnect between us, I'll just beg off.

Take care.

 

[pearl]

began going to the barrios in Buenos Aries

This was Francis' 'dark night of the soul'. John Paul II had referred to Romero as part of liberation theology which he was opposed to. Francis considers Romero a martyr and deserving of sainthood.

 

[metis]

This was Francis' 'dark night of the soul'. John Paul II had referred to Romero as part of liberation theology which he was opposed to. Francis considers Romero a martyr and deserving of sainthood.

Ya, Romero had a problem when the government used death squads to kill his priests, nuns, and lay missionaries.

BTW, I hope I remember, but I'll get back with you later on the latter point, which I believe you're gonna find "interesting".

 

[Desert Snake]

In regards to the Abrahamic Covenant:

Genesis 17:[7] And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to

Yes, but that does not invalidate the Covenant. Take a look at the general pattern in Isaiah which, generally speaking, goes like this:

We didn't keep the Law closely enough.
God punished us by sending us into exile.
A "remnant" returns to eretz Israel.
God says to follow the Law more carefully.

Notice that the repeated violations of the Law does not invalidate the Covenant, so if we don't follow the Law closely enough, we may well be punished for that but not abandoned.

So, why would God give us the Law, and then supposedly say the Law is no longer valid even though He punished us for violating it? And why would all Jews in essence be blamed for violating the Law? [rhetorical question]

BTW, are you familiar with the RCC rethinking on this?

Nice attampt at invalidating Yeshus words , however He said,
That He did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it.

 

[metis]

Nice attampt at invalidating Yeshus words , however He said,
That He did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it.

I can accept that you believe that.

 

[metis]

Francis considers Romero a martyr and deserving of sainthood.

BTW, I hope I remember, but I'll get back with you later on the latter point, which I believe you're gonna find "interesting".

Sometime in the late 1980's, I was at a religious conference down in Dayton, Ohio, and a bunch of us were sitting at a table having dinner when the issue of the two nuns and two lay missionaries that were killed by death squads in El Salvador came up. I mentioned that I had just seen a movie about that incident, and a priest sitting just across the table stated that he was very familiar with this since he was their priest. I coulda fallen off my chair when he said that, so we started talking.

Since I was somewhat involved with the United Farm Workers Ministry here in Michigan, I had been long interested in events down in Latin America, so he and I talked right through the next two meetings that were scheduled.

He was very upset with the Reagan administration for a variety of reasons, including turning a blind eye to our support of that despotic regime, and he mentioned that when our government's investigators came there, they never once asked him any questions, and yet he was the last person from the community to see the the nuns and missionaries alive.

Also, he said that our military would run military exercises there and "accidentally" leave quite a bit of their equipment behind. Congress had passed a law that Reagan signed that stated that it was illegal for us to give or sell military equipment to the Salvadorean government, so this is how the administration by-passed that.

The priest, who was from the Cleveland archdiocese, invited me to come down and do some volunteer work in El Salvador, which I would have loved to do but couldn't because of my summer job.

BTW, he said that even though he was a "gringo", he considered himself Salvadorean, and he loved the church there because the people there consider it the center of their community versus the all too often just a one-hour exercise here in the States.

Oh, the man who played the priest in the movie was old and somewhat frail, whereas the real priest that I was talking with could have played center for the Green Bay Packers.