Is a person a Christian if...

[shmogie]

Correct as the name "Roman" wasn't added until later whereas the Uniate churches rejoined the Catholic Church. And remember that it was the Catholic Church that chose the canon of the Bible you use.

I agree that the Catholic ( universal ) Church began with Christianity. The ROMAN Catholic Church in many ways debased and altered the doctrines of the Catholic Church founded by Christ and the Apostles. Some make a big deal of how today's Canon was finalized and authorized. There is extant a letter from one of the Church Fathers to another, that lists the All the Books of the Bible as we have it today except for second Timothy from c. 125 AD Second Peter and I forget the third. Yes some Churches used additional books, and a few removed books but in time they adjusted and came into the fold. Some used "scriptures" radically differen't, like the Gnostics, but these were quickly identified as being non Christian because they did not adhere to Apostolic teachings or writings . I have read of, but not seen the papers written by various Bible scholars who have studied the books that are listed as not making the grade in the final Canon that can be found and these scholars confirm the choices for the Final Canon were wise, and consistent in doctrine

 

[pearl]

(quote)
no more that saying you are going to the store with tom, dick and harry.

tom, dick and harry were not Mt words of baptism which you were baptized by, The concept of the Trinity was there but had not yet been formulated.

 

[roger1440]

Would a person be considered a Christian if they wanted to follow Christ's teachings, but didn't exactly view him as God, but rather a prophet or messenger of God? Because technically they would be following Christ's path, just not believing that he himself was God or part of a trinity.

It depends on how one defines Christian.

 

[Daisies4me]

tom, dick and harry were not Mt words of baptism which you were baptized by, The concept of the Trinity was there but had not yet been formulated.

(quote)

please explain what you mean by 'Mt words of baptism' ?

imho, the scripture mentions 3 'names'. What is your opinion of the meaning of the use of the 'names' in the baptism that Jesus commanded be done thereafter? Do you think the 3 individuals are separate entities? That is my meaning when liking using the 'names' as being similar to using any other 3 names of 3 individuals in any given situation.

(even though only 2 'names' are mentioned...)

Do you recall what John's baptismal words were? Did not John baptize for 'forgiveness of sins' of the Jews against God's Son, Jesus, and their rejection and mistreatment of him?

Why did John not want to baptise Jesus? Why did Jesus, although without sin, insist on John baptising him?
How did the Baptism of John differ from the Baptism that Jesus told his followers to do?

 

[RESOLUTION]

Your scriptures are accurate ( thank you for not using the "JW Bible", NIV, ) but your conclusions are not. You must address The Godhead as mentioned in the NT, I know what you will say, but for others who don't know your doctrines this will be valuable. THEN, we can address the issue directly

If you believe the God head is told in the OT the Trinity, then you must show the God head exists.

You see something that they suggested is not the same as something which is clearly stated and predicted.

I am not and never have been a JW or a Christadelphian.

The main theme is one God and we Know that God is the Father of all.
Jesus and the Holy Spirit have their own will and they do the will of God.



7.Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8.And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9.Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10.Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11.Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12.I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

1.3Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14.He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15.All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.


Acts 7:
55.But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56.And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

38.How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

God anointed Jesus with the Holy Ghost and Jesus baptised with the Spirit.
To belong to God according to the bible you have to be baptised with the Holy Ghost.


Does God require to give himself the Spirit or be with himself?

I feel so often the truth is overlooked for the teaching of man. What do you think of these verses. Do they suggest the Messianic view that God is in three persons and not that God is three persons?

 

[RESOLUTION]

---------------------------
Hi

I agree with you that Jesus is referred to as 'the last Adam', in the Bible.

Both Adam and Jesus having been created by God, neither having had a human father, and both were created perfect, with no sin in them.

Adam, though, did not remain sinless. He wilfully disobeyed God, and rebelled against God's rightful rulership over him. Due to his obeying Satan, rather than God, Adam then became imperfect, facing the death penalty for sin, that God had warned him about. hence, every living human being offspring from Adam was born in imperfection, or sin, and thereby "all men had sinned" and would pay the 'wage for sin', that being death.

Which is why God arranged to send His Son , his firstborn, to the earth to be born of a virgin Jewish girl, so that he could pay the ransom price once for all time, for all of mankind who would repent and obey His Father, God.

one thing that I differ with, in your post, is that angels were also free will individuals, with the ability to sin--- which is what Satan did-- he was a powerful angel in the heavenly realm who wanted to be worshipped, and took on the attempt to get all of mankind to obey him rather than God. When the heavens were cleansed, Rev. 12;7-12. it is said that 1/3 of the heavenly angels were cast out with Satan, as demons confined to the vicinity of the earth, to await their abyssing, upon the cleansing of the earth by the Holy War of God, (REv. 16:14, 16).
So the angels that remained in heaven and were loyal to God, now have been given eternal life and will receive the promise. Next, the cleansing of the earth, as Proverbs 2:21-22 and Psalms 37:29 promises.
The "last Adam" will give separate the wheat from the tares, and his Ransom has paid the price for those who uphold the Kingdom of God to 'enter into His rest', the 1,000 yr. reign of Christ, God's Anointed King, where the earth will see paradise restored, and mankind will see the promised resurrection (John 5:28-29) of their loved ones, and the restoration to perfection for all humans residing upon the earth at that time.
What a grand hope we have! And it is upon us. Come , Lord Jesus. see Revelation 19:11- 20:6.

So you do not agree with me that Angels had free will and left their places and are reserved in chains as Jude says till judgement?

You appear to repeat the things I actually said then make out something I actually did say was not said?????

But you appear to be relying on your own resources. Angels already had eternal life. Hence the sin did not kill them and cause them to die as Adam.
Adam no longer able to eat from the tree of life. That which is in heaven does not die there is no death in heaven,
You can always bring the verses and apply them to your beliefs shown above. You forgot to mention those who were killed for gospel reigning with Christ a 1.000 YEARS.
Bear in mind that to God, there is no difference between a day and a thousand years,

King James Bible
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The day of the LORD, therein.

 

[hughwatt]

Would a person be considered a Christian if they wanted to follow Christ's teachings, but didn't exactly view him as God, but rather a prophet or messenger of God? Because technically they would be following Christ's path, just not believing that he himself was God or part of a trinity.

"Technically" they would not be following His teachings nor the revealed Word of God.

Satan's goal is to deceive people into not believing Christ's message neither the account the Bible gives of Him. This is why there's so much confusion out there; the Devil will do anything to not make people see the Truth.

 

[pearl]

What is your opinion of the meaning of the use of the 'names' in the baptism that Jesus commanded be done thereafter?

That leads to another question; were they the words of Jesus or do they reflect the words used in the baptismal formula already in use in the community which Mt refers to as church.

Do you think the 3 individuals are separate entities?

In answer to this I'm quoting one of the Church's scholars;
Three different figures are brought into conjunction in the NT. Some NT formulas join the three; other references unite the Father and the Son; and still other references relate the Spirit to the Father and/or to the Son. Nevertheless, in no NT passage, not even MT 28:19 is there precision about three divine persons, co-equal but distinct, and one divine nature-the core of the dogma of the Trinity. Greek philosophy, sharpened by continuing theological disputes in the church contributed to the classical formulation of the dogma. The precise Trinitarian dogma is not detectable in the literal sense of the NT, was not observably understood by first century authors and audiences. The truth of the dogma was revealed when God sent Jesus Christ and when the risen Christ communicated his Spirit.
reference Raymond Brown

Personally, I think it is mistaken to place the emphasis on the separation of persons over the unity of the Trinity. Think ocean and waves, they are distinct but not separate. The doctrine of the Trinity, according to the Church, is not the product of logic, but the guidance of the Paraclete promised in John.
Considering this is the baptismal formula followed by most denominations, how do they define Trinity? Is there more than one holy spirit or is the Holy Spirit confused?

Do you recall what John's baptismal words were? Did not John baptize for 'forgiveness of sins' of the Jews against God's Son, Jesus, and their rejection and mistreatment of him?

John baptized for the repentance of sin. Beyond that its very complicated as there were competing groups; the Pharisees, the Sadducees and the Essenes and Matthew's application of the material. I don't think it was certain at the time of JB general baptizing that John had identified Jesus as God's Son.

Why did John not want to baptise Jesus? Why did Jesus, although without sin, insist on John baptising him?
How did the Baptism of John differ from the Baptism that Jesus told his followers to do?

Again the answer is no so simple. Mt has changed considerable the baptismal account of Jesus' baptism in Mk which was much simpler (1: 9-11), Mt omits the reference to sin. I think we must keep in mind the ongoing theology and Christology of the of the NT.

 

[Daisies4me]

So you do not agree with me that Angels had free will and left their places and are reserved in chains as Jude says till judgement?

You appear to repeat the things I actually said then make out something I actually did say was not said?????

But you appear to be relying on your own resources. Angels already had eternal life. Hence the sin did not kill them and cause them to die as Adam.
Adam no longer able to eat from the tree of life. That which is in heaven does not die there is no death in heaven,
You can always bring the verses and apply them to your beliefs shown above. You forgot to mention those who were killed for gospel reigning with Christ a 1.000 YEARS.
Bear in mind that to God, there is no difference between a day and a thousand years,

King James Bible
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The day of the LORD, therein.

(quote)
did you mean this post for me? or for someone else?

I don't recall arguing with you (?) as I agree with you on many points. I have a different viewpoint on some things, but please rest assured, my source of information is the Bible, as you raised that issue in your post, so let's put that to rest now, ok?
There is no 'tree of life' in heaven, sorry, I have to disagree with you on that.
The tree was in the middle of the Garden of Eden, on the earth, where God put Adam and Eve. And God did not allow them to partake of the fruit of the other trees in the garden, as Jehovah's angel put them out of the garden, and guarded to entry into the garden with angels having fiery swords, preventing anyone from re-entering therein. And God pronounced the judgment of death upon Adam and Eve at that time. read it at Genesis 2:5-9. & 3:17-24.
Can we agree on this?

I certainly do believe in the Scriptural account of the demon angels coming down from heaven, materializing ih human bodies, in order to have sex with the women on earth. How could I not, when it is clearly stated in the Bible? Angels do not procreate, and having sexual relations is not a things that angels can do. They have no gender. Which is why the wicked angels wanted to be in human form. To do things not intended for them. see Genesis 6:1-4. As the Biblical account says, 'they left their proper dwelling place', at Jude 6, and stepped away from God's purpose for them. They rebelled against God's rulership over them, just as Satan had done.

angels were not given eternal life upon creation. They were able to use their free will to choose just as humans are. Those wicked fallen angels are very active in the earth today, influencing humans to obey Satan rather than God. They are behind all of the spiritism going on on earth today, and even 'influence nations' as the Bible says -- notice the warning for humans at 1 Corinthians 10:21. And again at James 4:7. Even Jesus, in the Model Prayer, taught us to pray for God to 'deliver us from the wicked one' at Matthew 6:9-13. And they will be abyssed with Satan (Revelation 20:1-3) in the Holy war of God as stated in Revelation 16:13, 16, which all of the earth is being maneuvered toward as we speak. Please read the prophecy in Revelation 19:11-21. Satan & his demons will be 'resurrected' for a 'short while' at the end of the 1,000 years, in order for the final test for the then restored to perfection (equal to the perfect condition Adam was when he was tested by the Devil) , and those who follow satan then will be forever destroyed along with Satan and his demons, and those who remain loyal to Jehovah under test, as Job did, will then be given everlasting life. At that time, God's original purpose for the earth and mankind will be fulfilled. Everyone living in peace, in unity of worship of the Only True God, with nothing to harm them ever again. Paradise regained. The 'little flock' of anointed ones, of the 'first resurrection', will 'rule as kings' in the heavenly kingdom of God with Christ, (Revelation 20:6) and they will rule over the 'other sheep', or the 'great crowd that no man was able to number', and that heavenly government of God will rule over the entire earth for the 1,000 yrs, as the promised and the 'meek one that shall inherit the earth and reside forever upon it. as Psalm 37:29, and Matthew 5:5 tells us, among many other scriptures that agree with those two.When all things are brought together in peace, and death will be no more, as per Rev. 21:3-5.

This is a wonderful Bible hope, examining the scriptures and discussing it only serves to strengthen our faith and remind us of what Almighty God has in store for all obedient mankind, and what He has purposed from the beginning, will certainly come to pass. So let's not fight over the wonderful promises the Bible offers to all who will do as Ecclesiastes 12:13 admonishes.
peace to you

 

[CogentPhilosopher]

"Technically" they would not be following His teachings nor the revealed Word of God.

Satan's goal is to deceive people into not believing Christ's message neither the account the Bible gives of Him. This is why there's so much confusion out there; the Devil will do anything to not make people see the Truth.

Could one not use the same argument for Islam though?

 

[Daisies4me]

So you do not agree with me that Angels had free will and left their places and are reserved in chains as Jude says till judgement?

You appear to repeat the things I actually said then make out something I actually did say was not said?????

But you appear to be relying on your own resources. Angels already had eternal life. Hence the sin did not kill them and cause them to die as Adam.
Adam no longer able to eat from the tree of life. That which is in heaven does not die there is no death in heaven,
You can always bring the verses and apply them to your beliefs shown above. You forgot to mention those who were killed for gospel reigning with Christ a 1.000 YEARS.
Bear in mind that to God, there is no difference between a day and a thousand years,

King James Bible
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The day of the LORD, therein.

(quote)

1 Corinthians 15:45 speaks about the first Adam, and the Last Adam (Jesus), in case you weren't familiar with this passage, and perhaps didn't understand my usage of the phrase 'the last Adam" (Jesus)

 

[RESOLUTION]

(quote)
did you mean this post for me? or for someone else?

I don't recall arguing with you (?) as I agree with you on many points. I have a different viewpoint on some things, but please rest assured, my source of information is the Bible, as you raised that issue in your post, so let's put that to rest now, ok?
There is no 'tree of life' in heaven, sorry, I have to disagree with you on that.

No! you are wrongly assuming that the angels who are not human beings have eternal life because they eat from a 'tree of life' in heaven.
Man when created was created never to die. But the tree of life was in the Garden of Eden put there by God.
Again you answered something I NEVER SAID. Why are you doing this?
The matter is plain for all to see.






The tree was in the middle of the Garden of Eden, on the earth, where God put Adam and Eve. And God did not allow them to partake of the fruit of the other trees in the garden, as Jehovah's angel put them out of the garden, and guarded to entry into the garden with angels having fiery swords, preventing anyone from re-entering therein. And God pronounced the judgment of death upon Adam and Eve at that time. read it at Genesis 2:5-9. & 3:17-24.
Can we agree on this?

WRONG... Did Angels live in the Garden of Eden or partake of the tree of life.

The tree of life and the tree of Knowledge were both in the GARDEN of Eden. Adam and Eve were allowed to take and eat from every tree including the ' tree of life' but not the tree of knowledge.

Genesis 2:9
9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Adam and Eve could eat freely from every tree including the tree of life but not the tree of knowledge.

So we can only agree on the truth that Adam and Eve could eat from the tree of life if they so choose. We see God gave them permission. But not the tree of knowledge that is the facts.

When Adam and Eve sinned we see God removes the right to eat from the tree of life.

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

So they lost the right to eat from the tree of life. So they were removed from the Garden.

I certainly do believe in the Scriptural account of the demon angels coming down from heaven, materializing ih human bodies, in order to have sex with the women on earth. How could I not, when it is clearly stated in the Bible? Angels do not procreate, and having sexual relations is not a things that angels can do. They have no gender. Which is why the wicked angels wanted to be in human form. To do things not intended for them. see Genesis 6:1-4. As the Biblical account says, 'they left their proper dwelling place', at Jude 6, and stepped away from God's purpose for them. They rebelled against God's rulership over them, just as Satan had done.

It does not say the above in Genesis 6:1-4.

Genesis 6:1-4King James Version (KJV)
6 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Take nothing away and add nothing to it.

angels were not given eternal life upon creation.

Manmade teaching... We know that Angels can never die because there is NO DEATH in heaven, There is no sin in heaven,
As Jude tells us :-
King James Bible
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.


So the angels left their first estate their own habitation. So no angel can die they were not created flesh or human. Even all humans rise to life and are judged,
Some have eternal life with God and some have eternal damnation but they know about it for eternity.
Those angels who left heaven their normal habitation and did what they were not suppose to do have not died. They did not change in flesh either and become human.
Everyone has the will to serve God or self.

What source of life allows Satan to Roam the Earth?

They were able to use their free will to choose just as humans are. Those wicked fallen angels are very active in the earth today, influencing humans to obey Satan rather than God.

So who are the angels reserved in everlasting chains under the darkness unto the Judgment?

They are behind all of the spiritism going on on earth today, and even 'influence nations' as the Bible says -- notice the warning for humans at 1 Corinthians 10:21.

King James Bible
Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

Paul was talking to those not yet eating meat but requiring milk still. He was talking to gentile about the offerings to devils and not being partakers of such things.
We know there is one God and we follow one Lord. We also have the truth which Christ taught. NOTHING shall by any means hurt you.
Paul was not talking to those who like himself were meat eaters he was talking to Gentiles who were being taught.

And again at James 4:7. Even Jesus, in the Model Prayer, taught us to pray for God to 'deliver us from the wicked one' at Matthew 6:9-13. And they will be abyssed with Satan (Revelation 20:1-3) in the Holy war of God as stated in Revelation 16:13, 16, which all of the earth is being maneuvered toward as we speak. Please read the prophecy in Revelation 19:11-21. Satan & his demons will be 'resurrected' for a 'short while' at the end of the 1,000 years, in order for the final test for the then restored to perfection (equal to the perfect condition Adam was when he was tested by the Devil) , and those who follow satan then will be forever destroyed along with Satan and his demons, and those who remain loyal to Jehovah under test, as Job did, will then be given everlasting life. At that time, God's original purpose for the earth and mankind will be fulfilled. Everyone living in peace, in unity of worship of the Only True God, with nothing to harm them ever again. Paradise regained. The 'little flock' of anointed ones, of the 'first resurrection', will 'rule as kings' in the heavenly kingdom of God with Christ, (Revelation 20:6) and they will rule over the 'other sheep', or the 'great crowd that no man was able to number', and that heavenly government of God will rule over the entire earth for the 1,000 yrs, as the promised and the 'meek one that shall inherit the earth and reside forever upon it. as Psalm 37:29, and Matthew 5:5 tells us, among many other scriptures that agree with those two.When all things are brought together in peace, and death will be no more, as per Rev. 21:3-5.

You want me to swap faith for fear? King James Bible
Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

King James Bible
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
John 14:6
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

1 John 4:4
4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

The word of God is truth.

This is a wonderful Bible hope, examining the scriptures and discussing it only serves to strengthen our faith and remind us of what Almighty God has in store for all obedient mankind, and what He has purposed from the beginning, will certainly come to pass. So let's not fight over the wonderful promises the Bible offers to all who will do as Ecclesiastes 12:13 admonishes.
peace to you

Be careful how you think....Read Proverbs 4.

 

[hughwatt]

Could one not use the same argument for Islam though?

What is that supposed to mean in relation to the header?

 

[Daisies4me]

No! you are wrongly assuming that the angels who are not human beings have eternal life because they eat from a 'tree of life' in heaven.
Man when created was created never to die. But the tree of life was in the Garden of Eden put there by God.
Again you answered something I NEVER SAID. Why are you doing this?
The matter is plain for all to see.






The tree was in the middle of the Garden of Eden, on the earth, where God put Adam and Eve. And God did not allow them to partake of the fruit of the other trees in the garden, as Jehovah's angel put them out of the garden, and guarded to entry into the garden with angels having fiery swords, preventing anyone from re-entering therein. And God pronounced the judgment of death upon Adam and Eve at that time. read it at Genesis 2:5-9. & 3:17-24.
Can we agree on this?

WRONG... Did Angels live in the Garden of Eden or partake of the tree of life.

The tree of life and the tree of Knowledge were both in the GARDEN of Eden. Adam and Eve were allowed to take and eat from every tree including the ' tree of life' but not the tree of knowledge.

Genesis 2:9
9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Adam and Eve could eat freely from every tree including the tree of life but not the tree of knowledge.

So we can only agree on the truth that Adam and Eve could eat from the tree of life if they so choose. We see God gave them permission. But not the tree of knowledge that is the facts.

When Adam and Eve sinned we see God removes the right to eat from the tree of life.

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

So they lost the right to eat from the tree of life. So they were removed from the Garden.







It does not say the above in Genesis 6:1-4.

Genesis 6:1-4King James Version (KJV)
6 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Take nothing away and add nothing to it.




Manmade teaching... We know that Angels can never die because there is NO DEATH in heaven, There is no sin in heaven,
As Jude tells us :-
King James Bible
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.


So the angels left their first estate their own habitation. So no angel can die they were not created flesh or human. Even all humans rise to life and are judged,
Some have eternal life with God and some have eternal damnation but they know about it for eternity.
Those angels who left heaven their normal habitation and did what they were not suppose to do have not died. They did not change in flesh either and become human.
Everyone has the will to serve God or self.

What source of life allows Satan to Roam the Earth?







So who are the angels reserved in everlasting chains under the darkness unto the Judgment?



King James Bible
Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

Paul was talking to those not yet eating meat but requiring milk still. He was talking to gentile about the offerings to devils and not being partakers of such things.
We know there is one God and we follow one Lord. We also have the truth which Christ taught. NOTHING shall by any means hurt you.
Paul was not talking to those who like himself were meat eaters he was talking to Gentiles who were being taught.



You want me to swap faith for fear? King James Bible
Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

King James Bible
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
John 14:6
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

1 John 4:4
4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

The word of God is truth.



Be careful how you think....Read Proverbs 4.

you said to me:

No! you are wrongly assuming that the angels who are not human beings have eternal life because they eat from a 'tree of life' in heaven.
Man when created was created never to die. But the tree of life was in the Garden of Eden put there by God.
Again you answered something I NEVER SAID. Why are you doing this?
The matter is plain for all to see.

D: you have said may things. Too many things. and I apologize, but apparently , I have lost what you are trying to say. Way too many words, and accusations for me. This is why I suggested one talking point at a time. If you want to be 'right' in your eyes, far be it from me to try to force anyone to see something simply because it is my opinion. So I am opting out of this conversation, as it is not productive for anyone at this point, imho.
have a nice day.

 

[hughwatt]

(quote)Was Jesus praying to himself? hardly. They are two separate entities , just as John 17:3 shows. Jesus called his Father "The ONLY TRUE GOD" what does the world ONLY mean? ahh, yes. There is only ONE True God, and Jesus, the Son of God is praying to the ONLY True God, Jehovah. Psalms 83:18 .

Those who believe in the trinity doctrine put themselves in a very dangerous position. The evidence is indisputable that the dogma of the trinity is not found in the Bible, nor is it in harmony with what the Bible teaches. It grossly misrepresents the True God . As Jesus told us at John 4:23-24, "The hour is coming , and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such ones the Father seeks to worship him. God is a Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth. "
Thus, Jesus made it clear that those whose worship is not 'the truth' , not in harmony with the truth set out in God's own WordReference, are not "true worshippers" . reference Matthew 15:6-9.
Regarding the trinity, the athanasian creed says that its members are "incomprehensible". Teachers of the Trinity doctrine often state that it is 'a mystery'. Obviously, such a trinitarian god is not the one that Jesus had in mind when he said "WE worship what we know" at John 4:22.

From my reading of Watchtower publications and having asked Watchtower witnesses they do not understand what we mean by the Trinity and other important Biblical truths,

If you reply to this I'll go into more detail when I have time.

 

[CogentPhilosopher]

What is that supposed to mean in relation to the header?

The same thing your argument did.

 

[metis]

The ROMAN Catholic Church in many ways debased and altered the doctrines of the Catholic Church founded by Christ and the Apostles.

Let me ask you, how and exactly when, and please be specific.

 

[shmogie]

Let me ask you, how and exactly when, and please be specific.

By non Biblical doctrines not practiced by the Apostolic church. Infant baptism, purgatory, worshiping and praying to saints, exalting Mary to high status she never wanted or deserved, priestly intercession and forgiveness of sin, which is Christ's responsibility alone, penances, indulgences, ex cathedra speaking of the pope, etc, etc

 

[metis]

By non Biblical doctrines not practiced by the Apostolic church. Infant baptism, purgatory, worshiping and praying to saints, exalting Mary to high status she never wanted or deserved, priestly intercession and forgiveness of sin, which is Christ's responsibility alone, penances, indulgences, ex cathedra speaking of the pope, etc, etc

Each of these could be discussed independently of the other, and I'm game to do that if you wish, but in the context of what you wrote, they really don't apply.

There's a difference between different interpretations versus apostasy, and the above deal with the former. Also, you neglect to mention that tradition played a role in the formation of Christian teachings since not everything that came out of the early church got written down in the Bible (same is true in Judaism, btw).

John 3:16 says "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." Now, that verse often has been referred to as "the Bible in a nutshell" since it includes the basic essence of Christianity. Did the CC ever abandon that? I'll answer that for you: no.

Besides that, there are the Apostle's Creed and the Nicene Creed, and did the CC ever abandon those? Again, the answer is clearly this: no.

It is actually the Protestants that broke from the traditions of the early church, namely elevating scripture to complete dominance, which the early church didn't do or believe, and it was they in the 4th-5th centuries that the CC actually chose the canon. Also, Protestants didn't observe the passing on of leadership from one bishop to another by the laying on of hands, which not only was the mark of the early church but also can be found in Acts and some of the epistles.

Many Protestants like to cite Origen's opinion that the CC needed to put increasing emphasis on the scriptures even though it was pre-canon when he wrote this, but Protestants don't seem to like quoting Origen's questioning whether salvation was possible outside the CC, him saying that it is "the scarlet thread that binds", and wondering why anyone would take a chance on trying to seek salvation outside the church. Mind you, I don't agree with this, but then my "theology" is way out in left-field.

In summary, much like some here question whether Mormons (LDS) and/or J.W.'s are really Christian, which to me such questioning is also theological nonsense as they do believe in John 3:16 as well, so how can anyone really question the simple fact that they also in reality must be classified as being "Christian".

 

[Daisies4me]

From my reading of Watchtower publications and having asked Watchtower witnesses they do not understand what we mean by the Trinity and other important Biblical truths,

If you reply to this I'll go into more detail when I have time.

(quote)
it has been my experience, when speaking with people on the matter, there are many differing definitions as to what the 'trinity' means to different persons who have stated that they believe the trinity doctrine. People don't agree even about what it means, and most will say that they don't have to be able to explain it, because it is a 'mystery'. They believe it because a religious leader or persons thereby inclined, told them to believe it. If I asked 6 people to define what the trinity means in their opinion, usually I would get as many definitions. Some would even argue with other trinitarians about the meaning of the trinity.