Is a Two-State Solution Still Possible?

[Sunstone]

Recently, Clayton Swisher, director of investigative journalism at Al Jazeera, said words to the effect that a two-state solution to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is now impossible. However, he gave no reasons why he believes that other than to state that very few people actually involved in the issue still believe that a two-state solution is possible. Do you think he's right that a two-state solution is no longer possible? Why or why not?

If a two-state solution is no longer possible, what becomes of Israel? What becomes of the Palestinians?

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

Its not possible anymore. For that to happen, the zionists must return all the lands they stole from 1940's.
Thats not possible in their eyes either.

Situation continues, with more deadlier groups rising up. Zionists are now worried about hezbullah. Well let say deadlier groups could rise up that drags them into longer wars.

 

[YmirGF]

I have not believed in the idea of a two-state solution for quite some time. I can see the Palestinian territory absorbed into greater Israel as a demilitarized semi-autonomous region. The simple fact that the Palestinians went to the UN to gain recognition for their state is indicative of the fact that they no longer believe a peaceful solution is possible, if they ever did. So, by doing an end run around Israel, over Israel's protests, practically guaranteed that there will not be a political solution. The world can try to force the issue with Israel, but my guess is that will not actually work.

 

[LuisDantas]

Do you think he's right that a two-state solution is no longer possible?

Yes, I do. My main doubt is whether it ever was.

Why or why not?

It seems to provoke and emphasize a dilemma that has been very much a difficult challenge to the people of the area.

On the one hand, it would present the social and political reality of the area as two very different groups (which I will name "Israeli" and "Palestinians" out of pragmatism, not accuracy) with significantly different rights, expectations and political structures which are supposed to be acknowledged as a direct result of that arbitrary classification. Not just present it as such, but demand that people lend that model prestige as well - by force of law and military, no less.

At the same time, it would also demand both groups to exercise restraint and mutual respect towards each other. Even as it makes a point of reminding them continuously of how many and how deep reasons they have to be resentful of the archetypical perceptions of each other as embodied by those two states.

Far as I can see, that is just not going to work, or even to help.

Incidentally, going on a tangent, many of those same reasons also apply to the Muslim and Hindu populations of India and Pakistan, and reinforce my opinion that Partition was a grave mistake.

If a two-state solution is no longer possible, what becomes of Israel? What becomes of the Palestinians?

Israel can aim for no better than a perpetual situation of besiege as long as it insists on defining itself as a sovereign state, just barely not officially Jewish, in an area that is by any reasonable expectation bound to be surrounded by hostile people in the foreseeable future.

It has to pick two out of three. Military sovereignity, moral integrity, survivability in the long term. I flat out fail to even imagine a scenario where all three can be reconciled.

The Palestinians are in an even worse situation, apparently. They have no obvious long-term goals or political planning worth of that name.

Even if Israel simply promised to leave in the next few months to Australia or something, meant it, and made good of such a promise, that would only buy them a breather before they ended up engaging in confused mutual conflicts not that dissimilar to so many other situations in the Middle East. They simply give no evidence of knowing any better.

 

[Bunyip]

I think that a two state solution is the only hope for both the Palestinians and the Israelis.

 

[Kirran]

I don't think a two-state solution is viable anymore, as a result of the fragmentation of the Palestinian communities within the West Bank and between the West Bank and Gaza, as well as between Arab populations within Israel itself, and also as a result of the highly entrenched nature of Israeli communities in the West Bank, which I don't can or should be kicked out. A one-state solution it will have to be.

Important to note, statements have been made to the effect that an Israel with a Jewish population below 70% can no longer classify itself as Jewish. It's at 75% now, and falling, as the Arab minority grows. Any integration of the Palestinian causes a shift change to an Arab majority, and so won't be done until there's a one-state-friendly and Arab-friendly government. But that'll come as demographics shift.

 

[Flankerl]

The so called Demographic shift of Israel has got to be the most favourite made up thing of the last couple of years.

 

[Kirran]

The so called Demographic shift of Israel has got to be the most favourite made up thing of the last couple of years.

If so, then I apologise for saying it as true.

If you could provide some sources disproving it?

 

[metis]

I would love to see a two-state solution, but I don't think it's possible at this time with the attitudes being what they are. As long as there are militant groups such as Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Brotherhood demanding Israel be destroyed, and as long as there's countries like Iran and some others bent on destroying Israel, a two-state solution would just be another war in the making.

A one-state solution with full democracy by all sides will not be acceptable because the changing demographics would end why Israel was created for in the first place.

Right now, what we see is probably the only "solution" for the time being-- unfortunately.

 

[Kirran]

I would love to see a two-state solution, but I don't think it's possible at this time with the attitudes being what they are. As long as there are militant groups such as Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Brotherhood demanding Israel be destroyed, and as long as there's countries like Iran and some others bent on destroying Israel, a two-state solution would just be another war in the making.

I agree on all this, but would like to add that a number of elements within Israeli society and the Israeli government have a similar impact.

An example.

 

[metis]

I agree on all this, but would like to add that a number of elements within Israeli society and the Israeli government have a similar impact.

An example.

Did you notice the date on that article?

No, I don't see any significant changes along this line now. The peace process is dead as even most of those that might be said to be on the "left" have given up hope. How many times can one have missiles and rockets and suicide bombers and people being run over before one just gives up and admits we're at war?

Sorry that it is that way, but it is.

 

[Kirran]

Did you notice the date on that article?

No, I don't see any significant changes along this line now. The peace process is dead as even most of those that might be said to be on the "left" have given up hope. How many times can one have missiles and rockets and suicide bombers and people being run over before one just gives up and admits we're at war?

Sorry that it is that way, but it is.

It's absurd to call that a war, it's an occupation with some resistance.

Fair enough, but groups like the Kahanists certainly worsen the situation, as does the entire concept of ethnic nationalism.

 

[metis]

It's absurd to call that a war, it's an occupation with some resistance.

Fair enough, but groups like the Kahanists certainly worsen the situation, as does the entire concept of ethnic nationalism.

It's war.

When Abbas sided with Hamas in a joint partnership several months ago, what limited chance for a two-state solution was completely dashed, at least for the time being. I'm one of those who has given up, and I was long in favor of the peace process.

It's dead, and only the Palestinian leaders are in a position to revive it. If you deal with this as much as I have, and if you've been there to feel what's really happening, you'd pretty much draw the same conclusion, I'm sure. But I wish it weren't so.

 

[Kirran]

It's war.

When Abbas sided with Hamas in a joint partnership several months ago, what limited chance for a two-state solution was completely dashed, at least for the time being. I'm one of those who has given up, and I was long in favor of the peace process.

It's dead, and only the Palestinian leaders are in a position to revive it. If you deal with this as much as I have, and if you've been there to feel what's really happening, you'd pretty much draw the same conclusion, I'm sure. But I wish it weren't so.

I have plenty of respect for your in-depth knowledge, and direct experience of this situation. But I am firmly of the opinion that many of the actions of the Israeli government are actively preventing the peace process. As well as having several friends of Palestinian origin, my mother has spent years working on justice development programs in the West Bank and in Gaza, and so I get some perspective from her. Also, I read about stuff.

 

[metis]

I have plenty of respect for your in-depth knowledge, and direct experience of this situation. But I am firmly of the opinion that many of the actions of the Israeli government are actively preventing the peace process. As well as having several friends of Palestinian origin, my mother has spent years working on justice development programs in the West Bank and in Gaza, and so I get some perspective from her. Also, I read about stuff.

Hey, I admire what your mother's been apparently been doing (no, I'm not being sarcastic here), and I very much sympathize with the average family there as they're caught in between. My oldest granddaughter had to be whisked out of Israel last summer on an emergency flight to France with her group because they were under attack from Hamas' rockets/missiles coming into their area, one landing less than a mile away.

Each Israeli government that we have ever had has faced the issue of attacks from various radical groups, so one cannot say it's just one Israeli government of even a few. You have to understand that groups like Hamas and Hezbollah have made it abundantly clear by both what they say (you can read it on-line if you get into their websites) and what they do that Israel must be destroyed and that they will not stop until this happens. These groups have much support from some Arabic countries, especially Iran, that, according to the CIA, Iran spends roughly $300,000,000 to support terrorism there and elsewhere. Money talks.

So, how does one negotiate with elements that make it clear that you must be destroyed? Where's the compromise when you are told over and over again that there is no compromise? Palestinian leaders end up dead if they mutter the word "compromise", and I'm not kidding-- just ask Abbas what's happened to a fair number of his leadership at the hands of Hamas' leaders.

To "negotiate" with Hamas and Hezbollah is about as "easy" as it is to negotiate with ISIS, and that's no coincidence. These people don't want compromise-- they want total victory.

 

[Kirran]

Hey, I admire what your mother's been apparently been doing (no, I'm not being sarcastic here), and I very much sympathize with the average family there as they're caught in between. My oldest granddaughter had to be whisked out of Israel last summer on an emergency flight to France with her group because they were under attack from Hamas' rockets/missiles coming into their area, one landing less than a mile away.

Each Israeli government that we have ever had has faced the issue of attacks from various radical groups, so one cannot say it's just one Israeli government of even a few. You have to understand that groups like Hamas and Hezbollah have made it abundantly clear by both what they say (you can read it on-line if you get into their websites) and what they do that Israel must be destroyed and that they will not stop until this happens. These groups have much support from some Arabic countries, especially Iran, that, according to the CIA, Iran spends roughly $300,000,000 to support terrorism there and elsewhere. Money talks.

So, how does one negotiate with elements that make it clear that you must be destroyed? Where's the compromise when you are told over and over again that there is no compromise? Palestinian leaders end up dead if they mutter the word "compromise", and I'm not kidding-- just ask Abbas what's happened to a fair number of his leadership at the hands of Hamas' leaders.

To "negotiate" with Hamas and Hezbollah is about as "easy" as it is to negotiate with ISIS, and that's no coincidence. These people don't want compromise-- they want total victory.

And I think that Hamas and Hezbollah's actions are deplorable, but so are those of the Israeli government. If there was some way Hamas and Hezbollah could be rooted out, that'd be great.

Just one note, Iran isn't Arabic

 

[Iti oj]

It seemed to me that it was not Hamas who broke the last peace treaty but Israel by continuing their illegal settlements .

or the fact that Israel refused to remove a trade embargo.
No effort to make peace at all

Edit I just wanted to note I am not anti Israel

 

[metis]

And I think that Hamas and Hezbollah's actions are deplorable, but so are those of the Israeli government. If there was some way Hamas and Hezbollah could be rooted out, that'd be great.

Just one note, Iran isn't Arabic

Ya, thanks for the painful reminder-- this was a cardinal sin booboo with this anthropologist.

BTW, are you aware that the vast majority of self-proclaimed "Arabs" ain't really Arabs? Know why?

 

[Kirran]

BTW, are you aware that the vast majority of self-proclaimed "Arabs" ain't really Arabs? Know why?

I have SUCH a strong feeling I'm going to disagree with this, but pray tell

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

It seemed to me that it was not Hamas who broke the last peace treaty but Israel by continuing their illegal settlements .

or the fact that Israel refused to remove a trade embargo.
No effort to make peace at all

Edit I just wanted to note I am not anti Israel

U****** antisemite!!! How dare you?!