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Is America a Police state?

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
And really, police have the worst deal here. It's called a 'police state' so naturally the police take all the blame, but it's important to realize that it's not just police, this is a system wide issue encompassing all of the justice system, all levels of government, the media, and even common citizens with no government connections. All of those feed into the police state problems. It's not just police.
Reminds me of a family dinner that somehow turned into me saying we have to start telling the cops no when they try to violate our rights, and them all telling me just go along with them.
It's that "just go along with it" part that feeds the corrupt system, and has given the cops an inch and they did take a mile.
 

Underhill

Well-Known Member
Tax evasion. It's a felony with up to 5 years in prison. If you refuse to pay taxes to the government, and resist their attempts to collect it, they will escalate the force they use to overcome your resistance until you submit or die. When they say, "you are guilty of tax evasion", and they send the police to your house, the police aren't going to give up and go home because it's all over money owed to the government, they are going to arrest you, or kill you trying.

Tax evasion has to be pretty heinous for the police to come knocking. Even then, that is still not the same thing. They are enforcing the law. Not the edicts of the police state working for a specific agenda.

I agree we aren't at the level of full blown police state... yet, but the beginnings of one are there. Bad officers don't make a police state, it's the systemic flaws and abuses that allow bad officers to thrive. It's not the 1% that's the problem, it's the 99% that allow the 1% to be a problem.

And really, police have the worst deal here. It's called a 'police state' so naturally the police take all the blame, but it's important to realize that it's not just police, this is a system wide issue encompassing all of the justice system, all levels of government, the media, and even common citizens with no government connections. All of those feed into the police state problems. It's not just police.

I think it is both. The police have a responsibility individually and the state has the responsibility to do everything in their power to mitigate the problem.

For the state, this is really a mental health issue and I suspect it will get worse unless something is done. Many of these police come from the ranks of the military. Soldiers come home with the issues that can come with them. Often joining the police force is the easiest transition for them.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Tax evasion has to be pretty heinous for the police to come knocking. Even then, that is still not the same thing. They are enforcing the law. Not the edicts of the police state working for a specific agenda.
Tax collection isn't the best example.
Americastan is reviving the debtor's prison concept for court imposed costs, particularly the Friend Of The Court.
http://marginalrevolution.com/margi...on-for-failure-to-pay-for-your-own-trial.html
You can be violently apprehended & jailed for owing them money you cannot pay.
And then they can charge your for being jailed.
 

freethinker44

Well-Known Member
Tax evasion has to be pretty heinous for the police to come knocking. Even then, that is still not the same thing. They are enforcing the law. Not the edicts of the police state working for a specific agenda.
You're missing what I'm trying to say, or maybe I'm not saying it right, I don't know. I'm not trying to imply they're going door to door murdering people for not paying taxes, the problem here isn't that they are/aren't, it's that they can if they choose to.

If police are sent to arrest someone, they will either arrest them or kill them trying to arrest them, right? So that means that anything that is an arrestable offense is essentially something the government is willing to kill you over. Think about that, anything you can be arrested for is something the government will kill you over. Without due process, I might add. That it doesn't happen that often isn't the point. The point is, that the US government reserves the right to kill you for even the most minor violations, civil or criminal.
 

Underhill

Well-Known Member
You're missing what I'm trying to say, or maybe I'm not saying it right, I don't know. I'm not trying to imply they're going door to door murdering people for not paying taxes, the problem here isn't that they are/aren't, it's that they can if they choose to.

If police are sent to arrest someone, they will either arrest them or kill them trying to arrest them, right? So that means that anything that is an arrestable offense is essentially something the government is willing to kill you over. Think about that, anything you can be arrested for is something the government will kill you over. Without due process, I might add. That it doesn't happen that often isn't the point. The point is, that the US government reserves the right to kill you for even the most minor violations, civil or criminal.

Okay. But name a place where that isn't the case? Police involvement of any kind could potentially, in the worst case scenario, result in death almost anywhere in the world.
 

freethinker44

Well-Known Member
Okay. But name a place where that isn't the case? Police involvement of any kind could potentially, in the worst case scenario, result in death almost anywhere in the world.
If other places are like that then they're wrong too, but honestly, I don't care about them at the moment. I'm going to worry about my own country first. Just because the whole world is messed up doesn't diminish the argument against police in the US.
 

Underhill

Well-Known Member
If other places are like that then they're wrong too, but honestly, I don't care about them at the moment. I'm going to worry about my own country first. Just because the whole world is messed up doesn't diminish the argument against police in the US.

So you think police going in to arrest a presumed criminal should not be able to use lethal force?
 

Apex

Somewhere Around Nothing
So you think police going in to arrest a presumed criminal should not be able to use lethal force?
Not if the criminal suspected of only committing a non-violent crime. Letha force should only be legal when someone starts resisting with deadly force (non-violent resistance doesn't count), or is suspected of committing a violent crime.

EDIT: And when say "suspected of committing" I mean more than the pathetic definition that most law enforcement uses today. Stories of SWAT raids on innocent people based on faulty "intelligence" are far too common today. It seems the level of scrutiny used to judge if a piece of intelligence is true is the I-found-it-on-the-internet level.
 

freethinker44

Well-Known Member
So you think police going in to arrest a presumed criminal should not be able to use lethal force?
They should only be able to use as much force as is proportional to the "crime". And even then the force should be limited to immediate danger, and by immediate danger I don't mean the what if scenarios they give now, ie, being charged by an unarmed man is not immediate danger, if they don't think they can subdue someone in hand to hand then they should have stayed in their car and waited for back up.

So for a civil violation arrest shouldn't even be considered, in fact, if we make it illegal to arrest someone for a civil violation, such as tax evasion, I think it should be legal for people to use deadly force against police trying to arrest someone for a civil violation. It shouldn't be illegal to protect yourself, even against police.
 

Underhill

Well-Known Member
They should only be able to use as much force as is proportional to the "crime". And even then the force should be limited to immediate danger, and by immediate danger I don't mean the what if scenarios they give now, ie, being charged by an unarmed man is not immediate danger, if they don't think they can subdue someone in hand to hand then they should have stayed in their car and waited for back up.

So for a civil violation arrest shouldn't even be considered, in fact, if we make it illegal to arrest someone for a civil violation, such as tax evasion, I think it should be legal for people to use deadly force against police trying to arrest someone for a civil violation. It shouldn't be illegal to protect yourself, even against police.

Yeah, that's crazy.

The reason that's crazy is that the police are in the unique position of having no idea what they will face upon making any arrest. Even in my rural area something as simple as a domestic dispute can turn violent toward the police.

We have a country with more guns than people. Expecting the police to go into any situation without that option is the sad reality of the world we live in.

And that last line... how do you go about that exactly? Where do you draw the line between protecting yourself and resisting arrest?
 

Underhill

Well-Known Member
Not if the criminal suspected of only committing a non-violent crime. Letha force should only be legal when someone starts resisting with deadly force (non-violent resistance doesn't count), or is suspected of committing a violent crime.

EDIT: And when say "suspected of committing" I mean more than the pathetic definition that most law enforcement uses today. Stories of SWAT raids on innocent people based on faulty "intelligence" are far too common today. It seems the level of scrutiny used to judge if a piece of intelligence is true is the I-found-it-on-the-internet level.

So how do you know the guy being picked up for selling pot, isn't also selling guns and won't pull one on you? Or that the guy being picked up for a robbery won't pull a 12 gauge from under the bed?

We have created this monster of heavily armed police by being a heavily armed society.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
So how do you know the guy being picked up for selling pot, isn't also selling guns and won't pull one on you? Or that the guy being picked up for a robbery won't pull a 12 gauge from under the bed?

We have created this monster of heavily armed police by being a heavily armed society.
Of course the cops can't be sure of what they face.
But consider that their job doesn't rank even in the top 10 for deadly jobs.
Fishing, logging, trash collection & roofing are much worse professions.
So cops' automatic presumption that everyone is a deadly threat to them is an illusion.
There's also the issue that they value their own safety above others, ie, when in doubt, shoot.

Caution:
I speak of trends & generalities....not about every individual cop.
 

Apex

Somewhere Around Nothing
So how do you know the guy being picked up for selling pot, isn't also selling guns and won't pull one on you? Or that the guy being picked up for a robbery won't pull a 12 gauge from under the bed?

We have created this monster of heavily armed police by being a heavily armed society.
Are you seriously using the "What If" argument?
 

Underhill

Well-Known Member
Of course the cops can't be sure of what they face.
But consider that their job doesn't rank even in the top 10 for deadly jobs.
Fishing, logging, trash collection & roofing are much worse professions.
So cops' automatic presumption that everyone is a deadly threat to them is an illusion.
There's also the issue that they value their own safety above others, ie, when in doubt, shoot.

Caution:
I speak of trends & generalities....not about every individual cop.

I would say that is true of most people, not just police. It is human nature to value yourself more than others (when dealing with strangers anyway).

Plan for the worst and hope for the best. I wouldn't want it any other way if I were them.
 
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