Is atheism a religion?

[Trailblazer]

You believe the Will of Baha’u’llah is identical with the Will of God.

Why do you believe the Will of Baha’u’llah is identical with the Will of God?

Because Baha’u’llah told you that the Will of Baha’u’llah is identical with the Will of God.

FIRST, I had to believe that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God. Because I believe that, I believe whatever He wrote is as if God wrote it Himself. Below is the quote that explains how the Will of Baha'u'llah represents the Will of God:

“The essence of belief in Divine unity consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same. By this is meant that whatever pertaineth to the former, all His acts and doings, whatever He ordaineth or forbiddeth, should be considered, in all their aspects, and under all circumstances, and without any reservation, as identical with the Will of God Himself. This is the loftiest station to which a true believer in the unity of God can ever hope to attain. Blessed is the man that reacheth this station, and is of them that are steadfast in their belief.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 167​

If the Will of Baha’u’llah is identical with the Will of God how is there any difference between worshipping God and worshipping Baha’u’llah?

Because Baha'u'llah was not God. We worship only God. We do not worship His Manifestation

You have written very little about your reverence for God compared to what you have written about your reverence for Baha’u’llah.

We are not talking about God, we are talking about Baha'u'llah.
I do not have reverence for Baha'u'llah because I do not worship Baha'u'llah, I believe in Baha'u'llah.
I worship only God, as instructed by Baha'u'llah. All the daily Obligatory Prayers written by Baha'u'llah show reverence to God, not to Baha'u'llah...
The Obligatory Prayers

For example.

I bear witness, O my God, that Thou hast created me to know Thee and to worship Thee. I testify, at this moment, to my powerlessness and to Thy might, to my poverty and to Thy wealth.

There is none other God but Thee, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.
Bahá’u’lláh​

Short Obligatory Prayer​

 

[Trailblazer]

The only evidence you have is the self-serving pronunciations and writings of someone who wanted to create another offshoot of Islam.

The Bahai Faith is not an offshoot of Islam anymore than Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism. These are all separate religions because they all have different Manifestations of God who revealed them.

You have never shown any evidence to the contrary.

The evidence is not that Baha'u'llah SAID He was a Manifestation of God because that would be circular. The evidence is everything that supports His claim. I have listed the categories of evidence people can research if they care to.

 

[lukethethird]

FIRST, I had to believe that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God. Because I believe that, I believe whatever He wrote is as if God wrote it Himself. Below is the quote that explains how the Will of Baha'u'llah represents the Will of God:

“The essence of belief in Divine unity consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same. By this is meant that whatever pertaineth to the former, all His acts and doings, whatever He ordaineth or forbiddeth, should be considered, in all their aspects, and under all circumstances, and without any reservation, as identical with the Will of God Himself. This is the loftiest station to which a true believer in the unity of God can ever hope to attain. Blessed is the man that reacheth this station, and is of them that are steadfast in their belief.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 167​

Because Baha'u'llah was not God. We worship only God. We do not worship His Manifestation

We are not talking about God, we are talking about Baha'u'llah.
I do not have reverence for Baha'u'llah because I do not worship Baha'u'llah, I believe in Baha'u'llah.
I worship only God, as instructed by Baha'u'llah. All the daily Obligatory Prayers written by Baha'u'llah show reverence to God, not to Baha'u'llah...
The Obligatory Prayers

For example.

I bear witness, O my God, that Thou hast created me to know Thee and to worship Thee. I testify, at this moment, to my powerlessness and to Thy might, to my poverty and to Thy wealth.

There is none other God but Thee, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.
Bahá’u’lláh​

Short Obligatory Prayer​

I'm a Manifestation of God, no big deal.

 

[Trailblazer]

"a long Tablet to Napoleon III"

What does this mean? Was this something Bahá’u’lláh sent to Napolean? When was it written? How do you know?

This Tablet was hand delivered to Napoleon. Baha’u’llah delivered two Tablets to Napoleon III. It was written in 1869. The account of this is in the Writings of Shoghi Effendi.

“To the Emperor of the French, Napoleon III, the most prominent and influential monarch of his day in the West, designated by Him as the “Chief of Sovereigns,” and who, to quote His words, had “cast behind his back” the Tablet revealed for him in Adrianople, He, while a prisoner in the army barracks, addressed a second Tablet and transmitted it through the French agent in ‘Akká. In this He announces the coming of “Him Who is the Unconstrained,” whose purpose is to “quicken the world” and unite its peoples; unequivocally asserts that Jesus Christ was the Herald of His Mission; proclaims the fall of “the stars of the firmament of knowledge,” who have turned aside from Him; exposes that monarch’s insincerity; and clearly prophesies that his kingdom shall be “thrown into confusion,” that his “empire shall pass” from his hands, and that “commotions shall seize all the people in that land,” unless he arises to help the Cause of God and follow Him Who is His Spirit.”
God Passes By, p. 207​

Set your faces towards Him (Bahá’u’lláh) on this Day which God hath exalted above all other days,

If this was written by Bahá’u’lláh, why does he refer to himself as Bahá’u’lláh?

If you read that in context I think the reason it says “Set your faces towards Him (Bahá’u’lláh) on this Day which God hath exalted above all other days” is to make sure that Napoleon knew he was referring to Himself (Baha’u’llah) and not Jesus Christ.

We, in truth, have sent Him Whom We aided with the Holy Spirit (Jesus Christ) that He may announce unto you this Light that hath shone forth from the horizon of the will of your Lord, the Most Exalted, the All-Glorious, and Whose signs have been revealed in the West. Set your faces towards Him (Bahá’u’lláh) on this Day which God hath exalted above all other days, and whereon the All-Merciful hath shed the splendour of His effulgent glory upon all who are in heaven and all who are on earth.​

If this was written by Bahá’u’lláh, why does he capitalize the "H" in the word "Him"? Caps, in this usage, are normally reserved for deities.

All references to Manifestations of God are capitalized He and Him out of respect to their high stations.

Commotions shall seize all the people in that land, unless thou arisest to help this Cause,

Who is the "thou" that Bahá’u’lláh want to "arisest"?

Napoleon III.

and followest Him Who is the Spirit of God (Jesus Christ)

By all accounts, Napolean was a true believer in Jesus. So, specifically, what do you see Bahá’u’ lláh as trying to say here?

He was saying to follow Him (Baha’u’llah) because He (Baha’u’llah) was the Spirit of God (Jesus Christ). In other words, Jesus and Baha’u’llah were both the Spirit of God.

None of your quoted writings meets the criteria of "Clear, concise, unambiguous predictions".

They might not be easy to decipher as far as the writing style is concerned but they are unambiguous as far as what Baha’u’llah warned Napoleon of that would happen, and what He warned did happen one year later.

Trailblazer said: ↑
Prediction #2: WWI and WWII.

Baha’u’llah also prophesied WWI and WWII in His Tablet to Kaiser Wilhelm I. Below is an that Tablet.

“O KING of Berlin! Give ear unto the Voice calling from this manifest Temple: Verily, there is none other God but Me, the Everlasting, the Peerless, the Ancient of Days. Take heed lest pride debar thee from recognizing the Dayspring of Divine Revelation, lest earthly desires shut thee out, as by a veil, from the Lord of the Throne above and of the earth below. Thus counselleth thee the Pen of the Most High. He, verily, is the Most Gracious, the All-Bountiful. Do thou remember the one whose power transcended thy power (Napoleon III), and whose station excelled thy station. Where is he? Whither are gone the things he possessed? Take warning, and be not of them that are fast asleep. He it was who cast the Tablet of God behind him, when We made known unto him what the hosts of tyranny had caused Us to suffer. Wherefore, disgrace assailed him from all sides, and he went down to dust in great loss. Think deeply, O King, concerning him, and concerning them who, like unto thee, have conquered cities and ruled over men. The All-Merciful brought them down from their palaces to their graves.Be warned, be of them who reflect… O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and you shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 39

Specifically, where does the above clearly, concisely, and unambiguously make predictions about WWI or WWII?

When was this "tablet" written?

In retrospect, it is pretty obvious what Baha’u’llah was referring to. It was written around the same time as the Tablet to Napoleon, circa 1870, I do not have the exact date. Nobody knew that there would be two world wars at that time so he could hardly refer to the lamentations of Berlin as WWI and WWII.

Do you believe Nostradamus was a prophet? After all, he did predict the falling of the Twin Towers (two brothers torn apart).
Nostradamus: Predictions of Things Past

Depending on which source you consult, Nostradamus has been credited with accurately predicting the bombing of Hiroshima, Japan, in 1945; the Space Shuttle Challenger accident in 1986; the French Revolution in 1789; the Apollo moon landing in 1969; the death of Princess Diana in 1997; both World Wars, and so on. In fact you'd be hard pressed to name some significant global event that Nostradamus was not said, by someone, to have foreseen.

"In the city of God there will be a great thunder
Two brothers torn apart by Chaos while the fortress endures
The great leader will succumb
The third big war will begin when the big city is burning
— Nostradamus 1654"

Nostradamus may well have been a prophet but that is in no way the same thing as a Manifestation of God. All Nostradamus did was make predictions, he did not claim to be a Manifestation of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: ↑
I guess you mean that no prophet has ever been *unequivocally proven* to be a true prophet of God.

However, many Prophets have *evidence* that indicates that they were true Prophets.

“What then is the mission of the divine prophets? Their mission is the education and advancement of the world of humanity. They are the real teachers and educators, the universal instructors of mankind. If we wish to discover whether any one of these great souls or messengers was in reality a prophet of God we must investigate the facts surrounding His life and history; and the first point of our investigation will be the education He bestowed upon mankind. If He has been an educator, if He has really trained a nation or people, causing it to rise from the lowest depths of ignorance to the highest station of knowledge, then we are sure that He was a prophet. This is a plain and clear method of procedure, proof that is irrefutable. We do not need to seek after other proofs.” Bahá’í World Faith, p. 273

All of the above is self-serving:
How can you tell a real prophet from a phony? I am a real prophet and the rest are phonies. How do you know? Because I said so.

There is nothing self serving about that. Abdu'l-Baha (son of Baha'u'llah) was simply describing what we should look for in order to determine which prophets of the past were true (divine) prophets. "He" refers to the divine prophets in general, not to anyone in particular.

It explains how you can tell if someone was a true prophet. If He has been an educator, if He has really trained a nation or people, causing it to rise from the lowest depths of ignorance to the highest station of knowledge, then we are sure that He was a prophet. By the process of deductive reasoning, all others would be false prophets.

Babbulah trained no nation or people, causing it to rise from the lowest depths of ignorance to the highest station of knowledge any more than David Koresh did, and way less than Joseph Smith did.

Are you suggesting that David Koresh and Joseph Smith were true prophets of God?

That quote refers to prophets of the past, as the CONTEXT in which that passage was written was a chapter called RELIGION AND CIVILIZATION. It is way too soon after His Coming to know if Baha'u'llah was a prophet using that means of determination. He has not affected a nation or people yet because relatively few people have even become Baha'is as yet.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why do you continue to use the "PROOF" strawman? I have never asked you for proof. What I have done, repeatedly, is offer evidence. Evidence that you refuse to accept. This is no different than Creos refusing to accept evidence for evolution. Refusal to accept evidence is based on deeply ingrained religious beliefs.

I do not discount any evidence you have presented of false mediums. If you have any evidence of false prophets I am, willing to look at that too.

Now please show evidence of "real" psychics (didn't you state that you don't know much about psychics?)

I do not have any evidence of real psychics. Al I can say is that I believe there are people with psychic abilities.

Now please show evidence of "real" prophets. So far all you have done is post some "predictions" supporting Bahulla which really aren't predictions at all.

You asked for the predictions did you not? That is why I posted those. Of course those were predictions and they all came to pass as predicted. There are many more like them. All the kings and rulers that Baha’u’llah predicted would fall from power fell, like a house of cards. Nobody (but Him and God) knew that would happen when He predicted it. That is all covered in a book entitled The Promised Day Is Come.

Baha’u’llah also predicted the fall from power of religious leaders, and that came to pass.

The Crumbling of Religious Orthodoxy
Words Addressed to Muslim Ecclesiastics
The Falling Fortunes of Shí’ih Islám
The Collapse of the Caliphate

I could never post all the evidence for Baha’u’llah in a post, there is too much evidence. All I can do is tell you where to look according to what you want to look at.

Trailblazer said: ↑

“If a man were to declare, ‘There is a lamp in the next room which gives no light’, one hearer might be satisfied with his report, but a wiser man goes into the room to judge for himself, and behold, when he finds the light shining brilliantly in the lamp, he knows the truth!” Paris Talks, p. 103

ecco: And yes, we've been down this road. Remember my asking how many times the wise man goes into rooms only to find no lamps? Three? Fifty? Two hundred?

A really wise man said:

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Your Paris Talker is telling you to keep on walking into dark rooms hoping beyond hope that one may really contain a lamp. And you accept it.

No, that is NOT what he is saying. That is not the point of that passage at all. All he is saying is that we should not listen to other people but rather we should go and look for ourselves. How can you argue with that? Are you a follower or are you a seeker?

Another really wise man said:

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

You make extraordinary claims and offer no evidence. And you expect me to accept it.

I do not expect anyone to accept anything. I realize it is an extraordinary claim but the evidence is extensive, too extensive to dismiss. I wish it weren’t because it is not an easy life to be a Baha’i. I tried to dismiss it for 42 years but I never could.

The Writings of Baha’u’llah alone are evidence, but we also have His Character, His whole life and the history of His mission, not to mention that He fulfilled all the prophecies in the Bible and predicted many things that came to pass. I am not sure how much more people want.

 

[Trailblazer]

From post #555 above...

Neither I nor anyone needs to prove all psychic and prophets are frauds.

You are making the claims that some psychics are not frauds, but you present no evidence to support that claim.

You are making the claims that some prophets are not frauds, but you present no evidence to support that claim.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, you present no evidence.

I make no claim about psychics. I just say I believe that there are some people with psychic abilities. I am sure there is evidence of that, such as from detectives who have used psychics for solving crimes, but I have no evidence to offer. It is not a burning concern of mine.

 

[ecco]

FIRST, I had to believe that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God.

What does that mean "Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God"?

We are not talking about God, we are talking about Baha'u'llah.
I do not have reverence for Baha'u'llah because I do not worship Baha'u'llah, I believe in Baha'u'llah.

You do not revere a human being that communicates directly with God?

 

[ecco]

Below is the quote that explains how the Will of Baha'u'llah represents the Will of God:

“The essence of belief in Divine unity consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same.

So, some guy writes "I am the manifestation of God and I am the same as God because I say I am the manifestation of God and I am the same as God" and you believe him. Cool.

 

[ecco]

The evidence is not that Baha'u'llah SAID He was a Manifestation of God because that would be circular.

Yes, it is circular. You just don't want to see it.

The evidence is everything that supports His claim. I have listed the categories of evidence people can research if they care to.

You have stated that, among other things, his predictions were evidence. Is this the thread where I asked for just two specific, clear, concise predictions? If so, I'm still waiting.

 

[ecco]

This Tablet was hand delivered to Napoleon. Baha’u’llah delivered two Tablets to Napoleon III. It was written in 1869. The account of this is in the Writings of Shoghi Effendi.

"This Tablet"
"two Tablets"
"It"
"The Account"

You must be as confused as I am.

Bottom line - you still have not shown a clear, concise, specific prediction made by Baha’u’llah. All you have done is post some writings. I'm guessing that some were written by Baha’u’llah and some were written by a Shogi Effendi. Neither show clear, concise, specific predictions.

Why are you struggling with this? According to what you have written, his predictions are a major factor in your belief system. You should be able to point to any number of clear predictions.

 

[ecco]

If you read that in context I think the reason it says “Set your faces towards Him (Bahá’u’lláh) on this Day which God hath exalted above all other days” is to make sure that Napoleon knew he was referring to Himself (Baha’u’llah) and not Jesus Christ.

"I think the reason "? You think the reason? You don't know? Your faith is based on this and you think?

Even if that's the case, it doesn't explain the third person usage.
What is the exalted day he is referring to?

 

[ecco]

They might not be easy to decipher as far as the writing style is concerned but they are unambiguous as far as what Baha’u’llah warned Napoleon of that would happen, and what He warned did happen one year later.

Unambiguous? Really? Then you should be able to clearly show the prediction(s). You haven't. You base your belief system on something you can't even explain.

The problem is not that it is difficult to decipher because of a "writing style".
The problem is that it is difficult to decipher because there is nothing there to decipher.

 

[ecco]

Nostradamus may well have been a prophet but that is in no way the same thing as a Manifestation of God. All Nostradamus did was make predictions, he did not claim to be a Manifestation of God.

Now you are really devolving into the mire of utter confusion.

Many posts ago I asked why you believed Bahá’u’lláh was a true messenger/manifestation of God. One of the reasons you gave as evidence is that he made predictions that have come true.

The fact that you have been unable to show any such predictions is covered in other posts.

However, in your above post, you wrote: "All Nostradamus did was make predictions". So, both Bahá’u’lláh and Nostradamus made predictions. The difference is that along with making predictions Bahá’u’lláh proclaimed himself to be a Messenger of God.

So your evidence for Bahá’u’lláh being a true Messenger comes down to the fact that Bahá’u’lláh said he is a messenger of God.

Do you really understand what you, yourself have written?

 

[ecco]

I do not have any evidence of real psychics. Al I can say is that I believe there are people with psychic abilities.

'Nuff said.

 

[Trailblazer]

@ Truly Enlightened
@ ecco

I have been too busy to get back to your posts but I keep track of all my posts in a Word document so I will get back to them as soon as I have time....

I never forget anybody...

 

[Truly Enlightened]

@ Truly Enlightened
@ ecco

I have been too busy to get back to your posts but I keep track of all my posts in a Word document so I will get back to them as soon as I have time....

I never forget anybody...

Well this certainly proves that prayer doesn't work.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well this certainly proves that prayer doesn't work.

I have no idea what you mean...
If you mean you prayed I would forget your posts and not respond, just tell me that... I have three atheists on another forum who send me so many posts I can barely keep up on this forum anymore, so just give me the word and you won't hear from me again.

 

[Dell]

Doesnt the very meaning of the word A-Theist imply opposite theist? A theist is a person who maintains a belief in a theology of God or Deity? How can it be a religion then when there is no worshipers of a deity.

 

[LuisDantas]

Doesnt the very meaning of the word A-Theist imply opposite theist? A theist is a person who maintains a belief in a theology of God or Deity? How can it be a religion then when there is no worshipers of a deity.

Easily, actually.

But the OP is quite mistaken anyway. And it is more than a bit worth of worry that people can think of religion as something both untrustworthy and, apparently, spontaneously arising.

I can't claim to understand @dmap 's questions in the OP, but they are certainly surprising.