Is atheism a religion?

[Trailblazer]

What does that mean "Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God"?

This is God talking in the passage below that Baha’u’llah wrote. God refers to Baha’u’llah as “the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation.” Through Baha’u’llah God has manifested Himself, causing all creation to testify that He exists.

“Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.” Gleanings, p. 49​

God’s Attributes (qualities such as Goodness, Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Forgiving, Sovereign, Patience) are manifested by the Manifestations of God who manifest those Attributes perfectly. They are a perfect mirror image of God, so in that sense they are God.

“Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world. Thus, He hath revealed: “Those shafts were God’s, not Thine.” And also He saith: “In truth, they who plighted fealty unto Thee, really plighted that fealty unto God.”” Gleanings, p. 54​

You do not revere a human being that communicates directly with God?

Yes, I revere Him, but I do not worship Him. I worship only God, as instructed by Baha’u’llah.

 

[Trailblazer]

So, some guy writes "I am the manifestation of God and I am the same as God because I say I am the manifestation of God and I am the same as God" and you believe him. Cool.

That passage you quoted does not say Baha'u'llah was the same as God; it says that His Will is the same as God. Nobody is the same as God. God is one and alone, without peer or equal.

Through Baha'u'llah, God says: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.” Gleanings, p. 49

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, it is circular. You just don't want to see it.

It is not circular because the evidence is not Baha'u'llah. Although the Person of Baha'u'llah is part of the evidence, the evidence is everything that surrounds the Revelation of Baha'u'llah.

You have stated that, among other things, his predictions were evidence. Is this the thread where I asked for just two specific, clear, concise predictions? If so, I'm still waiting.

In this book is a list of 30 things that Baha’u’llah predicted that actually came to pass: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah
I am not going to list them all for you... You go fishing and pick the ones that are meaningful to you.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why are you struggling with this? According to what you have written, his predictions are a major factor in your belief system. You should be able to point to any number of clear predictions.

No, absolutely NOT. The predictions are NOT an important part of my belief system. They are part of the evidence but they are not the evidence that Baha'u'llah told us to look at. The passage below tells us what evidence we are supposed to look at.

1. The character of Baha'u'llah (His own Self).
2. The life and mission of Baha'u'llah (His Revelation)
3. The Writings of Baha'u'llah (His words)

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106​

 

[Trailblazer]

Even if that's the case, it doesn't explain the third person usage.
What is the exalted day he is referring to?

The Day of God. The passages below are pretty straightforward. The day in which God sends a "new" Manifestation to earth is called the Day of God. It is God's Appointed Day. Baha'u'llah was the Eternal Truth.

“In the Book of Isaiah it is written: “Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of His majesty.” No man that meditateth upon this verse can fail to recognize the greatness of this Cause, or doubt the exalted character of this Day—the Day of God Himself.”
Gleanings, p. 13​

“It is evident that every age in which a Manifestation of God hath lived is divinely ordained, and may, in a sense, be characterized as God’s appointed Day. This Day, however, is unique, and is to be distinguished from those that have preceded it. The designation “Seal of the Prophets” fully revealeth its high station. The Prophetic Cycle hath, verily, ended. The Eternal Truth is now come. He hath lifted up the Ensign of Power, and is now shedding upon the world the unclouded splendor of His Revelation.” Gleanings, p. 60​

 

[Trailblazer]

Unambiguous? Really? Then you should be able to clearly show the prediction(s). You haven't. You base your belief system on something you can't even explain

"Commotions shall seize all the people in that land, unless thou arisest to help this Cause, and followest Him Who is the Spirit of God (Jesus Christ) in this, the Straight Path. Hath thy pomp made thee proud? By My Life! It shall not endure; nay, it shall soon pass away, unless thou holdest fast by this firm Cord. " Proclamation of Baha'u'llah, pp. 18-20​

That Tablet was written in 1869 when Napoleon was at the height of His glory.

In July 1870, Napoleon entered the Franco-Prussian War without allies and with inferior military forces. The French army was rapidly defeated and Napoleon III was captured at the Battle of Sedan.
Napoleon III - Wikipedia
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and you shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 39
​

That is the prediction of WWI and WWII in a Tablet written to Kaiser Wilhelm I. It was written circa 1870, long before anyone knew there would be any world wars.

******************************************************************

To be clear, I do not base my belief on the predictions of Baha'u'llah. They are just added fluff. I base my belief on the evidence Baha'u'llah told us to look at , and I just posted to you in a previous post.

 

[Trailblazer]

Now you are really devolving into the mire of utter confusion.

Many posts ago I asked why you believed Bahá’u’lláh was a true messenger/manifestation of God. One of the reasons you gave as evidence is that he made predictions that have come true.

I said that is ONE of the reasons but that it is not the MAIN reason. Even if I was unclear before, what I posted today is crystal clear. The predictions of Baha'u'llah are not the primary evidence that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God.

However, in your above post, you wrote: "All Nostradamus did was make predictions". So, both Bahá’u’lláh and Nostradamus made predictions. The difference is that along with making predictions Bahá’u’lláh proclaimed himself to be a Messenger of God.

NO, that is not what I am saying. I am not saying that just because Baha'ullah proclaimed himself to be a Messenger of God that makes Him a Messenger of God, I am saying that since Nostradamus did not proclaim himself to be a Messenger of God he cannot be a Messenger of God.

So your evidence for Bahá’u’lláh being a true Messenger comes down to the fact that Bahá’u’lláh said he is a messenger of God.

No, no, no. I have explained this ad infinitum. I explained that the claim of Baha'u'llah to BE a Messenger of God is not the evidence. The evidence is everything that supports that claim.

Do you really understand what you, yourself have written?

Yes, I know EXACTLY what I have written and I could write it in my sleep, because I have been writing the same exact things to atheists on other forums for years. But there is no need to type it again, as I have all of this written up in Word documents. All I have to do is grab and go - copy/paste.

 

[Trailblazer]

'Nuff said.

I'll second that.

 

[Mukesh Sharma]

Atheism is contrasted with theism, which, in its most general form, is the belief that at least one deity exists.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

I have no idea what you mean...
If you mean you prayed I would forget your posts and not respond, just tell me that... I have three atheists on another forum who send me so many posts I can barely keep up on this forum anymore, so just give me the word and you won't hear from me again.

What, and miss out on reading all of your Baha'i quoted scriptures, that have no evidentiary value to anyone except people of your cult. In the last 4 pages you have presented 15 posts citing multiple Baha'i quotes as evidence to justify your narrative(#504, 32, 33, 35, 26, 29, 44, 61, 54, 65, 66, 82, 84, 85, and #586). I'd say there is a clear, and obvious pattern of proselytizing and editorializing being done here. Of course your scripted response is simply to deny and deflect, any valid objections with the usual tortuous obfuscated, cryptic self-confirming scriptures. Or, just shifting the burden of proof. I believe that you think that if you throw enough mud on the wall, no matter how silly it sounds, that the novelty alone will attract someone's attention. How do you think Trump was elected? Denial is the worst form of a lie, because it is the lie that you tell yourself.

I'm also going to miss out on all your circular reasoning, denials, deflections, misquoting, misrepresentations, avoidances, false equivocations, rephrasing, and your blatant logical fallacies. I just hope that others will see through all your double talk(I have evidence, but not objective evidence, that would be illogical), and your tortuous misdirecting meaningless ramblings. All seemingly designed/scripted to give the appearance of substance, without any factual support. By using even the smallest amount of critical scrutiny, the truth is no more than just a matter of personal faith. In the end, the Baha'i faith is just another unfalsifiable belief in a God, a Messenger of a God, and a book of rules that must be obeyed to demonstrate your loyalty. Some may just have a strong need for their lives to be lead by a belief, to give it meaning, purpose, and order. While others choose to live their lives, trusting their own decisions, principles, morality, and the knowledge gained by a clearer and more profound understanding of reality. For them, there is no need for any gap-filling beliefs.

So. WORD!

 

[ecco]

That passage you quoted does not say Baha'u'llah was the same as God; it says that His Will is the same as God. Nobody is the same as God. God is one and alone, without peer or equal.

Through Baha'u'llah, God says: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.” Gleanings, p. 49

So, some guy writes "I am the manifestation of God because I say I am the manifestation of God" and you believe him. Cool.

Oh, wait. There's more. You also believe him because he made very specific and accurate predictions, which you have not been able to produce.

 

[ecco]

It is not circular because the evidence is not Baha'u'llah. Although the Person of Baha'u'llah is part of the evidence, the evidence is everything that surrounds the Revelation of Baha'u'llah.

Like what? Stories and legends? There are stories and legends about Paul Bunyon too.

In this book is a list of 30 things that Baha’u’llah predicted that actually came to pass: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah
I am not going to list them all for you... You go fishing and pick the ones that are meaningful to you.

You listed two of them. One about Napolean and one about WWII . Neither of which are actual specific predictions. You are unable to point to a clear specific prediction, so you suggest I "go fishing".

Remember, you are the person making claims. It is up to you to back them up. But we both know that you can't. We both know that you believe because you want to believe.

 

[ecco]

No, absolutely NOT. The predictions are NOT an important part of my belief system. They are part of the evidence but they are not the evidence that Baha'u'llah told us to look at. The passage below tells us what evidence we are supposed to look at.

Duck and dodge, duck and dodge. You may forget what you write, but others don't.

Truly Enlightened said: ↑ My emphasis

Atheists require just one piece of objective evidence to demonstrate the existence of anything supernatural, spiritual, mystical, or paranormal. A resurrection, a miracle, an answered prayer, a fulfilled prophecy, or even a confirmed paranormal activity would do. So far, zilch, nada. Believers need only faith, and the application of top-down logic to sustain their conviction.​

To which you forcefully replied...(my emphasis)

That is not true that it is zilch, nada. There are many predictions Baha’u’llah made that have come to pass, events that nobody could have known would occur at the time He made the predictions. If it was just one prediction that might be a lucky guess, but the predictions He made that came to pass are numerous and some of them are very specific.

When Truly Enlightened stated Believers need only faith, you argued that your reason for believing in Bahai is then "many predictions Baha’u’llah made".

Well, you haven't been able to produce even one specific prediction. So now you are trying to downplay the prediction part and are going over to softer "proofs".

1. The character of Baha'u'llah (His own Self).
2. The life and mission of Baha'u'llah (His Revelation)
3. The Writings of Baha'u'llah (His words)

1. Lot's of people have good character.
2. Jim Jones, David Koresh and Marshall Applewhite also had lives and missions.
3. Jim Jones, David Koresh and Marshall Applewhite also wrote many things.

So, your Baha'u'llah is as real a messenger as were Jim Jones, David Koresh and Marshall Applewhite.

 

[ecco]

To be clear, I do not base my belief on the predictions of Baha'u'llah. They are just added fluff.

See post #593.

Your arguments would be more believable if you were consistent.

 

[Trailblazer]

So, some guy writes "I am the manifestation of God because I say I am the manifestation of God" and you believe him. Cool.

I have told you numerous times that I do not believe in Baha’u’llah because He SAID He was a Manifestation of God. I believe because of the EVIDENCE that supports His claim.

Oh, wait. There's more. You also believe him because he made very specific and accurate predictions, which you have not been able to produce.

I also told you that the predictions Baha’u’llah made are not the REASON I believe in Him. That is part of the evidence but not the most important part.

How many times am I going to have to repeat myself?

 

[Trailblazer]

Like what? Stories and legends? There are stories and legends about Paul Bunyon too.

No, not stories and legends. I have listed the categories of evidence numerous times on this forum. I see no reason to list them again. You are not serious anyway. You are just playing games.

You listed two of them. One about Napolean and one about WWII . Neither of which are actual specific predictions. You are unable to point to a clear specific prediction, so you suggest I "go fishing".

Those predictions were perfectly clear. Sorry you did not like them but that’s not my problem.

Remember, you are the person making claims. It is up to you to back them up. But we both know that you can't. We both know that you believe because you want to believe.

No, it was Baha’u’llah who made the claims, not me. His Person, His Life, His Mission, and His Writings back up His claims.

That is comical, I believe because I want to believe. Sure, that is why I tried not to believe for 42 years AFTER I became a Baha’i.

Do you have some kind of illusion that being a Baha’i is an easy life? Think again. If I wanted an easy life I would be an atheist or a Christian – saved and forgiven, without having to DO anything.

 

[Trailblazer]

Duck and dodge, duck and dodge. You may forget what you write, but others don't.

There is no ducking or dodging. Show me where I ever said that the predictions that Baha’u’llah made were an important part of my belief system. Show me, or stop accusing me.

When Truly Enlightened stated Believers need only faith, you argued that your reason for believing in Bahai is then "many predictions Baha’u’llah made".

Show me where I ever said that. Quote me saying that. I never said that. I only ever said that the predictions are PART of the evidence. I told you that they are not the most important part of the evidence and I explained what the most important evidence is, according to Baha’u’llah. Here it is again, don’t tell me again that I did not tell you:

Baha’u’llah explained how we are supposed to establish the truth of His claim. First, we examine His own Self (His character); then we examine His Revelation (everything that surrounds His Mission on earth); and then we look at His words (His Writings).

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106​

Well, you haven't been able to produce even one specific prediction. So now you are trying to downplay the prediction part and are going over to softer "proofs".

I gave you two specific predictions and I linked you to the book that had 30 specific predictions. Sorry you don’t like them but that’s not my problem.

You were the one who asked for the predictions. That was not my idea. Go back and look at what you said. The predictions are not the hard proofs because they all came true.

Trailblazer said: ↑

1. The character of Baha'u'llah (His own Self).
2. The life and mission of Baha'u'llah (His Revelation)
3. The Writings of Baha'u'llah (His words)

ecco: Lot's of people have good character.

Jim Jones, David Koresh and Marshall Applewhite also had lives and missions.

Jim Jones, David Koresh and Marshall Applewhite also wrote many things.

So, your Baha'u'llah is as real a messenger as were Jim Jones, David Koresh and Marshall Applewhite.

Jim Jones, David Koresh and Marshall Applewhite did not have a good character.

Jim Jones, David Koresh and Marshall Applewhite were evil men who had evil lives and missions, because they did not have good character. Wake up and smell the coffee.

What did Jim Jones, David Koresh and Marshall Applewhite write?

 

[Trailblazer]

See post #593.

Your arguments would be more believable if you were consistent.

I am completely consistent.

 

[ecco]

That is not true that it is zilch, nada. There are many predictions Baha’u’llah made that have come to pass, events that nobody could have known would occur at the time He made the predictions. If it was just one prediction that might be a lucky guess, but the predictions He made that came to pass are numerous and some of them are very specific.

I should be easy for you to state just two predictions that Baha’u’llah made. Clear, concise, unambiguous predictions.

No, absolutely NOT. The predictions are NOT an important part of my belief system. They are part of the evidence

You are the one who made a big deal of predictions.


When that didn't work out, you made more generalized "guidelines".

Baha’u’llah explained how we are supposed to establish the truth of His claim. First, we examine His own Self (His character); then we examine His Revelation (everything that surrounds His Mission on earth); and then we look at His words (His Writings).

Character is subjective. In any event, there is no way to truly know the character of Baha'u'llah other than his writings and the writings of his disciples.

Here someone writes of the "character of David Koresh:

Sermons*David Koresh: An American Messiah?

David Koresh is Messiah, being first amongst men to be born into God Consciousness. Having been born under the first creation into this consciousness, he was established as a sign post (sic) before this creation, to show Adam’s race a way out should they fall short of the standard set at the beginning. Hence the phrase “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth.” As a matter of fact, Adam was created like unto God the Son at the conclusion of the first creation, which is the material image of God. God the Son, of the first creation, has been raised up from death for the salvation of man. This time however he is to be made Messiah over the coming kingdom of God on earth. The Spirit of God is to dwell in all it’s citizens.[3]​

You mentioned Baha'u'llah's "Revelation (everything that surrounds His Mission on earth)"

What is his revelation? It must be his words, oral and written. His revelations and his writings are one and the same. Here is a sample if his writings...

“O God, my God, and my Desire, and my Adored One, and my Master, and my Mainstay, and my utmost Hope, and my supreme Aspiration! Thou seest me turning towards Thee, holding fast unto the cord of Thy bounty, clinging to the hem of Thy generosity, acknowledging the sanctity of Thy Self and the purity of Thine Essence, and testifying to Thy unity and Thy oneness.
​

All that is is meaningless religious mumbo jumbo.

David Koresh wrote similar mumbo jumbo which was very meaningful and insightful and spiritual to his followers.

TEXT OF THE KORESH MANUSCRIPT

EDEN TO EDEN



Search forth for the meaning here,
Hidden within these words
`Tis a song that's sung of fallen tears,
Given way for two love birds.

Love birds yet not of feathered creed
Shot down for gambled play,
And caged a far distance betweenst themselves
For the hunter felt it best that way.

``She bird is mine,'' the hunter said,
'Twas this bird I raised and faithfully fed.''
'Twas he bird who released her from her cage,
Sought her womb in youthful age.

Love birds the name, these birds they call,
Two, plural, love bird, takes two.
'Twas not her womb of which he sought,
And certainly not her youth.

Love birds, the name these birds they call,
Two, plural, love bird, takes two,
It's just that he needed she,
To fly the skies of blue.

And now we see the hunter man,
Robbed without a prey,
The evil which he sought to do,
Caused the birds to pass away.

For loneliness and solitaire,
Is death to every soul.
For birds of God were meant to pair,
The two to complete the whole.

And now we see the final meaning
Of this rhyme and verse:
The pending judgment of the King
Who rules the universe.


The only thing that could really set Baha'u'llah apart would be his predictions. General comments are not predictions. Try as you might, you have been unable to present even one clear concise prediction that could not have been based on common knowledge.

Your Baha'u'llah is no different than Jim Jones or David Koresh or Joseph Smith or any of hundreds (thousands?) of would be, wanna be, prophets/messengers.

But facts and reality never get in the way of believers of cults.

 

[Audie]

You are the one who made a big deal of predictions.


When that didn't work out, you made more generalized "guidelines".




Character is subjective. In any event, there is no way to truly know the character of Baha'u'llah other than his writings and the writings of his disciples.

Here someone writes of the "character of David Koresh:

Sermons*David Koresh: An American Messiah?

David Koresh is Messiah, being first amongst men to be born into God Consciousness. Having been born under the first creation into this consciousness, he was established as a sign post (sic) before this creation, to show Adam’s race a way out should they fall short of the standard set at the beginning. Hence the phrase “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth.” As a matter of fact, Adam was created like unto God the Son at the conclusion of the first creation, which is the material image of God. God the Son, of the first creation, has been raised up from death for the salvation of man. This time however he is to be made Messiah over the coming kingdom of God on earth. The Spirit of God is to dwell in all it’s citizens.[3]​

You mentioned Baha'u'llah's "Revelation (everything that surrounds His Mission on earth)"

What is his revelation? It must be his words, oral and written. His revelations and his writings are one and the same. Here is a sample if his writings...

“O God, my God, and my Desire, and my Adored One, and my Master, and my Mainstay, and my utmost Hope, and my supreme Aspiration! Thou seest me turning towards Thee, holding fast unto the cord of Thy bounty, clinging to the hem of Thy generosity, acknowledging the sanctity of Thy Self and the purity of Thine Essence, and testifying to Thy unity and Thy oneness.
​

All that is is meaningless religious mumbo jumbo.

David Koresh wrote similar mumbo jumbo which was very meaningful and insightful and spiritual to his followers.

TEXT OF THE KORESH MANUSCRIPT

EDEN TO EDEN



Search forth for the meaning here,
Hidden within these words
`Tis a song that's sung of fallen tears,
Given way for two love birds.

Love birds yet not of feathered creed
Shot down for gambled play,
And caged a far distance betweenst themselves
For the hunter felt it best that way.

``She bird is mine,'' the hunter said,
'Twas this bird I raised and faithfully fed.''
'Twas he bird who released her from her cage,
Sought her womb in youthful age.

Love birds the name, these birds they call,
Two, plural, love bird, takes two.
'Twas not her womb of which he sought,
And certainly not her youth.

Love birds, the name these birds they call,
Two, plural, love bird, takes two,
It's just that he needed she,
To fly the skies of blue.

And now we see the hunter man,
Robbed without a prey,
The evil which he sought to do,
Caused the birds to pass away.

For loneliness and solitaire,
Is death to every soul.
For birds of God were meant to pair,
The two to complete the whole.

And now we see the final meaning
Of this rhyme and verse:
The pending judgment of the King
Who rules the universe.


The only thing that could really set Baha'u'llah apart would be his predictions. General comments are not predictions. Try as you might, you have been unable to present even one clear concise prediction that could not have been based on common knowledge.

Your Baha'u'llah is no different than Jim Jones or David Koresh or Joseph Smith or any of hundreds (thousands?) of would be, wanna be, prophets/messengers.

But facts and reality never get in the way of believers of cults.

Religious mumbo jumbo sure gets in the way
of my belief that there is anything in what they
say.