Is atheism a religion?

[Trailblazer]

Shoghi Effendi was born in 1921. Bahá’u’lláh died in 1892.

How can Shoghi Effendi quote a conversation that took place a half Century earlier? A conversation between two individuals. Do you ever stop to think about the basis of your beliefs?

Have you ever heard of history books? History books contain quotes from various individuals, things that they said.

There were chroniclers of the Babi and the Baha'i Faiths who kept track of things that happened during the 19th century, and books were written. He most likely got it from one of those books.

The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation
The Dawn-Breakers - Wikipedia

Nabil knew Baha’u’llah because he was alive during the days of Baha’u’llah.

The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation or Nabíl's Narrative (Táríkh-i-Nabíl) is a historical account of the early Bábí and Bahá'í Faiths penned by Nabíl-i-A`zam in 1887–88. The English translation by Shoghi Effendi was published in 1932.[1]
The Dawn-Breakers - Wikipedia

In the Introductory Note, Nabil wrote:

“I render thanks to God for having assisted me in the writing of these preliminary pages, and for having blessed and honoured them with the approval of Baha’u’llah, who has graciously deigned to consider them and who signified, through His amanuensis Mirza Aqa Jan, who read them to Him, His pleasure and acceptance. I pray that the Almighty may sustain and guide me lest I err and falter inn the task I have set myself to accomplish.”

 

[Trailblazer]

Your link takes us to Baha'i: Prophecy Fulfilled Homepage which contains:

CHRISTIAN PROPHECIES

Commentary on the 11th chapter of the Book of Revelation from the Baha'i Writings... (30K)
Commentary on the 12th chapter of the Book of Revelation from the Baha'i Writings... (11K)
"Apocalypse: An Exegesis of the Book of Revelation" by Robert Riggs

Chapters 1-5 (111K)

Chapters 6-10 (68K)

Chapters 11-15 (85K)
​

I looked at 12th chapter of the Book of Revelation Chapters 15-21. To me, It's a bunch of rambling gibberish. But this is your religion. These are things you know about. So, please explain, in your own words, in detail, the prophecy fulfilled by 12th chapter of the Book of Revelation Chapters 15-21

No, these are not things I know about, as I do not know everything related to "my religion."

I do not spend my time interpreting the Book of Revelation and I do not need to because others have done so. Baha’is have written entire books about it and the four Primary Figures of the Baha’i Faith have interpreted many of the verses in the Book of Revelation. The following book is available to read for those who are interested.

Apocalypse Secrets: Baha'i Interpretation of the Book of Revelation

“First and foremost, the four Baha’i Primary-Figures play Revelation’s main roles interpretively. Baha’u’llah plays most, the Bab several, and ‘Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi some. Moreover, their Writings interpret symbols in Revelation, or ones specific to it, along with many of its verses. Baha’u’llah and ‘Abdu’l-Baha read Revelation in the Van Dyck Arabic Bible, and Shoghi Effendi read it in the King James English Bible.

• Baha’u’llah interprets specific Revelation symbols and verses in his Gems of Divine Mysteries. In his Book of Certitude he expansively interprets other Revelation symbols, such as Angel, Beginning and Ending, blood, bride, city, clothes, clouds, dawn-star or day-star, door, earth/world, earthquake, eye, First and Last, gemstone, hand, judgment, King of kings, lamp, life and death, light, moon, ocean/sea, oil, ointment, oppression/hardship, prison, rain, resurrection, return, river, robe, rod, smoke, son of man, sky/heaven, spirit, star, sun, sword, Temple, throne, tomb, tree, trumpet, warning, and water. The verses and symbols explained by Baha’u’llah involve 52% (209 of 404) of the verses of Revelation.

• The Bab addresses Revelation little and then only indirectly. He wrote those twenty letters that helped to identify the first 20 elder-founders, and he interprets radiance of the sun for Baha’u’llah.[4]‑S

• ‘Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi interpret many specific Revelation verses and their symbols. In Some Answered Questions ‘Abdu’l-Baha addresses all Revelation Chapter 11 and much of Chapters 12 and 21. In God Passes By and Promised Day is Come, Shoghi Effendi expands the meanings of many verses. The verses and symbols explained by ‘Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi involve 30% (121 of 404) of the verses of Revelation.

Overall, Baha’i Writings interpret some or all of 64% (258 of 404) of the verses of Revelation. Adding in verses containing John’s internal interpretations raises the total to 72% (291 of 404) of the verses of Revelation. Since each verse may be interpreted a little or a lot, verse-counting is a crude measure of interpretation but is better than none.

http://apocalypsesecrets.com/content/baha'i-writings-interpret-revelation​

 

[Trailblazer]

You still made a comparison of number of followers as a form of credibility comparison. Using the comparison was a form of evidence. You saying "evidence" is not required

Whatever....

 

[ecco]

... So the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith, Shoghi Effendi, tried to pick up the ball, and He wrote this letter to an individual believer when they asked how to get to heaven....

"To 'get to heaven' <snip>"
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, January 12, 1957)
Lights of Guidance (second part): A Bahá'í Reference File​

Interesting. You admit there is no writing or statements from Baha'u'llah as to how one gets to heaven. Instead, followers have to turn to the comments of someone who wrote a letter on behalf of Shoghi Effendi.

Not God's words.
Not Baha'u'llah's words.
Not even Shoghi Effendi's words.

On one of the most serious questions that can be asked by a by a religious person - how do I get to heaven - the best we can get from the Bahai religion is a letter written by an anonymous person on the behalf of the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith, Shoghi Effendi, on behalf of God's latest, greatest Messenger Baha'u'llah on behalf of God. Whew! That's really weak.

 

[ecco]

All evidence is open to interpretation.


No, the evidence itself is not subjective, because then it would not be *facts or information.* It is the interpretation of that evidence that is subjective, not the evidence itself.

That is because they have interpreted the evidence differently.

No, that is not true. It is evidence to the person to whom it indicates that the belief is valid.

As I said, you are very conflicted on what constitutes "evidence".

Bottom line, you presented stuff that you believe is evidence for the veracity of Baha'u'llah and the legitimacy of Bahai. I have shown that your evidence is faulty.

Whether something is evidence or not has NOTHING to do with whether it can be proven, since evidence is not proof. It *helps to prove* something is true.

If the evidence is faulty, then it does not help to prove anything. Quite the contrary.

If "your evidence" cannot stand up to scrutiny, then there is no valid reason for you to continue to put any credence into it. Your evidence does not stand up to scrutiny.

 

[ecco]

What is really going on is that you do not like the evidence. It is really that simple.

It has nothing to do with "likes" or your oversimplifications. It has everything to do with an analysis of what you have presented as "evidence".

Vague comments about things that may happen are not predictions. Therefore they are not evidence of special powers of Balula. Therefore they are not evidence that Balul is a Messenger of God. Therefore they are not evidence for Bahai. If generalized comments are presented as predictions, then that is evidence of intentional fraud.

More damning are the writings of Shogi Effendi where he quotes comments from conversations between Balalua and others. Any objective reading of these leads to the conclusion that they are fabrications.
There is no way that Shogi Effendi could have knowledge of these conversations to the extent that he could have recorded and quoted from them. If the writings are obviously false then everything built on the writings is false. The fabricated writings are evidence that Bahai is false.

 

[ecco]

I get it. What is evidence to me is not evidence to you.

The next time you mention evidence, I suggest you say "it is not evidence to me" rather than "it is not evidence." That is a more accurate statement.

If the information you base your beliefs on is fraudulent, as I showed in the previous post, then it should not be referred to as evidence.

 

[ecco]

If you go down to the very bottom of that page and click on the arrow to go forward to the next page, you will get to the actual CONTENTS of the Book.

The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volume 1, Contents

OK. I do that and find this...

FOREWORD TO THE 1976 REVISED EDITION
Recently I have received some authentic material which was not available to me when I wrote this book. It chiefly concerns two of Bahá'u'lláh's Tablets revealed in Baghdád and, as a result, I have revised some paragraphs between pages 147 and 151.
Adib Taherzadeh
xvi
​

Curious people would ask:
Who is Adib Taherzadeh?
How do we know that the "material" is "authentic"?
Where did it come from that it was not originally available?

I'll bet you don't have the answeres to those simple questions. You just accept anything and everything.

​

Here is some writing attributed to BAHÁ'U'LLÁH:

Through the movement of Our Pen of glory We have, at the bidding of the omnipotent Ordainer, breathed a new life into every human frame and instilled into every word a fresh potency. All created things proclaim the evidences of this world-wide regeneration.​

Can you explain, in your own words, what this means? Or do you just Ohh and Ahh?



Here is more writing attributed to BAHÁ'U'LLÁH:

The world of being shineth in this Day with the resplendency of this Divine Revelation. All created things extol its saving grace and sing its praises. The universe is wrapt in an ecstasy of joy and gladness. The Scriptures of past Dispensations celebrate the great jubilee that must needs greet this most great Day of God. Well is it with him that hath lived to see this Day and hath recognized its station.​

Can you explain, in your own words, what this means? Or do you just Ohh and Ahh?

 

[ecco]

There were chroniclers of the Babi and the Baha'i Faiths who kept track of things that happened during the 19th century, and books were written. He most likely got it from one of those books.

Nabil knew Baha’u’llah because he was alive during the days of Baha’u’llah.

In the Introductory Note, Nabil wrote:

“I render thanks to God for having assisted me in the writing of these preliminary pages, and for having blessed and honoured them with the approval of Baha’u’llah, who has graciously deigned to consider them and who signified, through His amanuensis Mirza Aqa Jan, who read them to Him, His pleasure and acceptance. I pray that the Almighty may sustain and guide me lest I err and falter inn the task I have set myself to accomplish.”

[

Now you are believing second and thirdhand hearsay as meaningful. Does Shogi Effendi state that his writings are based on second and thirdhand accounts? Or does he just write and hope that no one asks how he knows these things?

 

[ecco]

ecco:
I looked at 12th chapter of the Book of Revelation Chapters 15-21. To me, It's a bunch of rambling gibberish. But this is your religion. These are things you know about. So, please explain, in your own words, in detail, the prophecy fulfilled by 12th chapter of the Book of Revelation Chapters 15-21

No, these are not things I know about, as I do not know everything related to "my religion."

I do not spend my time interpreting the Book of Revelation and I do not need to because others have done so.

One of your big things was belief in prophecy. Balula's prophecy and Bible prophecy predicting balula.

You even linked to some. I took the time to look at it. Now, after all that, you say "these are not things I know about".

 

[Trailblazer]

On one of the most serious questions that can be asked by a by a religious person - how do I get to heaven - the best we can get from the Bahai religion is a letter written by an anonymous person on the behalf of the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith, Shoghi Effendi, on behalf of God's latest, greatest Messenger Baha'u'llah on behalf of God. Whew! That's really weak.

Those were Shoghi Effendi’s words that he spoke and someone wrote them down for him.

I said: “Baha'u'llah did not even state specifically what happens to those of other religions after they die.” Why do you assume that Baha’u’llah did not write anything about how to get to heaven? Do you want to know how to get to heaven? Baha’u’llah explained that in so many words. Hopefully, you can read between the lines.

“It is clear and evident that all men shall, after their physical death, estimate the worth of their deeds, and realize all that their hands have wrought. I swear by the Day Star that shineth above the horizon of Divine power! They that are the followers of the one true God shall, the moment they depart out of this life, experience such joy and gladness as would be impossible to describe, while they that live in error shall be seized with such fear and trembling, and shall be filled with such consternation, as nothing can exceed. Well is it with him that hath quaffed the choice and incorruptible wine of faith through the gracious favor and the manifold bounties of Him Who is the Lord of all Faiths…” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 171​

 

[ecco]

Those were Shoghi Effendi’s words that he spoke and someone wrote them down for him.

I've noticed a lot of confusion and ambiguity about who said what and who wrote what. Who "wrote them down for him"? Where is it clearly stated that "someone wrote them down for him"?

This is similar to the problem you have with the writings of Shogi Effendi quoting word for word from conversations Balula had with others (see previous posts). You justified this by saying other people overheard the conversations and related the information to Shogi Effendi. However, you are unable to show what your assertions are based on. Where is it written that Shogi Effendi got his knowledge of the conversations from third parties? Where is something written that shows how these intermediates were privy to the converstions?

Once again, you have zero, zip zilch.

I said: “Baha'u'llah did not even state specifically what happens to those of other religions after they die.” Why do you assume that Baha’u’llah did not write anything about how to get to heaven? Do you want to know how to get to heaven? Baha’u’llah explained that in so many words. Hopefully, you can read between the lines.

... They that are the followers of the one true God shall, the moment they depart out of this life, experience such joy and gladness as would be impossible to describe, while they that live in error shall be seized with such fear and trembling, and shall be filled with such consternation, as nothing can exceed....” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 171​

In a nutshell, heaven is "joy and gladness as would be impossible to describe". Whoopie.

But once again, you are not showing the actual writings of Balula. You are quoting from Gleanings:

things that are gathered or collected from various sources rather than acquired as a whole.​

Where are the actual writings of Balula?

Your whole religion is based on stories about stories and writings about stories, all based on second hand and third hand unattributed and unattributable sources.

The authenticity of the writings of Bahai is less credible than the authenticity of the writings of the Gospels, and we know those are fraudulent.

 

[Earthling]

I read an interesting perspective on this question in "Dawkins' God" by Alister McGrath, an Oxford theologian and biochemist. He argued that atheism, which he defined as the conviction that there is no God, is just as much a faith-based belief as belief in God. This was on the basis that it is a fairly well known result in philosophy that one can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God.

Interestingly Dawkins conceded the same point, in a discussion at the Sheldonian Theatre in Oxford with the Archbishop pf Canterbury, some years ago, agreeing that strictly speaking he was agnostic rather than atheist - although he qualified it by saying he was 99% confident no God exists.

However while one can thus argue that atheism is a worldview based on a belief or conviction that cannot be definitively demonstrated, I do not think it is fair to call atheism a religion, as it has none of the trappings of a religion.

What about religions without God like Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, and arguably Scientology, Hinduism and Shintoism?

 

[Bear Wild]

Atheism is not a religion but there are atheistic religions. Science however is not a religions it is process and is too often equated as the same as atheism.

 

[Trailblazer]

As I said, you are very conflicted on what constitutes "evidence".

Bottom line, you presented stuff that you believe is evidence for the veracity of Baha'u'llah and the legitimacy of Bahai. I have shown that your evidence is faulty.

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid. https://www.google.com/search

It is faulty from your perspective because the available body of facts or information surrounding the Revelation of Baha’u’llah does not indicate anything to you.

It is not faulty from my perspective because the available body of facts or information surrounding the Revelation of Baha’u’llah indicates something to me.

You have not shown *to me* that my evidence is faulty. I have shown evidence to you. Sorry you did not like it. I do not care and God does not care. God does not need anyone’s belief.

If the evidence is faulty, then it does not help to prove anything. Quite the contrary.

If the evidence helps to prove something *to me* it is not faulty *to me.*
If the evidence does not help to prove something *to you* it is faulty *to you.*

If "your evidence" cannot stand up to scrutiny, then there is no valid reason for you to continue to put any credence into it. Your evidence does not stand up to scrutiny.

The evidence has to stand up to your scrutiny in order for you to put credence into it.
The evidence does not have to stand up to your scrutiny in order for me to put credence into it.
What about that do you not understand?

 

[Trailblazer]

It has nothing to do with "likes" or your oversimplifications. It has everything to do with an analysis of what you have presented as "evidence".

Vague comments about things that may happen are not predictions. Therefore they are not evidence of special powers of Balula. Therefore they are not evidence that Balul is a Messenger of God. Therefore they are not evidence for Bahai. If generalized comments are presented as predictions, then that is evidence of intentional fraud.

Predictions of the fall of Napoleon III and WWI and WWII are not vague or generalized comments. They are specific predictions that came to pass just as predicted.

More damning are the writings of Shogi Effendi where he quotes comments from conversations between Balalua and others. Any objective reading of these leads to the conclusion that they are fabrications.
There is no way that Shogi Effendi could have knowledge of these conversations to the extent that he could have recorded and quoted from them. If the writings are obviously false then everything built on the writings is false. The fabricated writings are evidence that Bahai is false.

Believe whatever you want to. It does not matter to me or to God.

You can post anything you want on a forum but it won’t change the reality that the Baha’i Faith is the truth from God and Baha’u’llah is a Messenger of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

If the information you base your beliefs on is fraudulent, as I showed in the previous post, then it should not be referred to as evidence.

You have not shown anything. You just think you have.

You have not proven that what Shoghi Effendi wrote was fraudulent. You have no proof. All you have is a personal opinion from which you make a bald assertion.

If you really wanted to know the truth you could find out how he knew what was quoted, but instead you just assume you know.

Believe whatever you want. I do not care and God does not care.

You are the only one who loses at this game.

 

[Trailblazer]

Curious people would ask:
Who is AdibTaherzadeh?
How do we know that the "material" is "authentic"?
Where did it come from that it was not originally available?

Yes, that is exactly what they would do, ask.

Adib Taherzadeh - Bahaikipedia, an encyclopedia about the Bahá’í Faith
Adib Taherzadeh - Wikipedia

If you want to ask some other Baha’is on this forum they might know more than I know about his publications.

Here is some writing attributed to BAHÁ'U'LLÁH:

Through the movement of Our Pen of glory We have, at the bidding of the omnipotent Ordainer, breathed a new life into every human frame and instilled into every word a fresh potency. All created things proclaim the evidences of this world-wide regeneration.

Can you explain, in your own words, what this means? Or do you just Ohh and Ahh?

It means that the Writings of Baha’u’llah have breathed new spiritual life in to every human being on earth and all created things testify to the regeneration of the whole world.

Definition of regenerate

1:formed or created again

2:spiritually reborn or converted

3:restored to a better, higher, or more worthy state

Definition of REGENERATE

Here is more writing attributed to BAHÁ'U'LLÁH:

The world of being shineth in this Day with the resplendency of this Divine Revelation. All created things extol its saving grace and sing its praises. The universe is wrapt in an ecstasy of joy and gladness. The Scriptures of past Dispensations celebrate the great jubilee that must needs greet this most great Day of God. Well is it with him that hath lived to see this Day and hath recognized its station.

Can you explain, in your own words, what this means? Or do you just Ohh and Ahh?

This of course is figurative language.All created things have been brightened in this new day by the Revelation of Baha’u’llah.That means new spiritual light (the Holy Spirit) has come to earth and affected all created things.All created things testify to its saving grace and sing its praises means all created things are aware that we have been saved by this most Great Revelation. All human souls have been gained eternal life and the planet has also been saved from impending extinction by the Revelation of Baha’u’llah.

The religions of the past celebrate the great event that has come because of this most great Day of God, because this is the fulfillment of all the promises in their scriptures. How fortunate is anyone who has lived to see this great day and recognized the station of Baha’u’llah as the Manifestation of God for this age.

 

[Trailblazer]

Now you are believing second and thirdhand hearsay as meaningful. Does Shogi Effendi state that his writings are based on second and thirdhand accounts? Or does he just write and hope that no one asks how he knows these things?

I do not really know and I do not care because there is no reason for me to doubt any of the Writings of Shoghi Effendi. This is not something you can understand since you know nothing about the Covenant of Baha’u’llah which is related to His Will and Testament whereby He named His successors. Baha’u’llah’s son Abdu’l-Baha was named His successor and the Centre of His Covenant. Abdu’l-Baha also had a Will and Testament that named Shoghi Effendi as the Guardian. The Writings of three constitute the “Authoritative Writings” of the Baha’i Faith. All carry the same authority as the Writings of Baha’u’llah because of the Covenant.

I never read any of the history books before I became a Baha’i. History is not my thing. I will read them as soon as I have time. I just don’t have the time right now.

The Writings of Baha’u’llah and Abdu’l-Baha were the reason I became a Baha’i. They alone are proof to me that the Baha’i Faith is the truth from God. The rest is just additional supporting evidence.

 

[Trailblazer]

ecco:
I looked at 12th chapter of the Book of Revelation Chapters 15-21. To me, It's a bunch of rambling gibberish. But this is your religion. These are things you know about. So, please explain, in your own words, in detail, the prophecy fulfilled by 12th chapter of the Book of Revelation Chapters 15-21

One of your big things was belief in prophecy. Balula's prophecy and Bible prophecy predicting balula.

You even linked to some. I took the time to look at it. Now, after all that, you say "these are not things I know about".

I am not very familiar with the Bible since I was never a Christian. I have not taken the time to read the Book of Revelation because I do not think I could interpret it. I only know a few verses that definitely refer to Baha’u’llah, such as the following. In Rev 2:17 the Spirit refers to Jesus. The new name is Baha’u’llah.

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.​

The Book of Revelation is very difficult to interpret. Christians do not even agree amongst themselves what it means. This is one reason they cannot agree on when Jesus is going to return or what Jesus will do when He returns.

The prophecies that prove that Baha’u’llah was the return of Christ and the Messiah are in Thief in the Night by William Sears.

That is easy reading and the explanations of exactly how Baha’u’llah fulfilled those prophecies is explained in detail. If you are going to read anything I suggest you take the time to read this book. It is online free to read.

Many Baha’is who were formerly Christians became Baha’is just from reading this book.