Is atheism a religion?

[Trailblazer]

• You state that women and men are equal in Bahai.
• Your holy scripture states that women are not allowed into the inner circle.

This is, at best, hypocrisy.

The inner circle? You mean the UHJ. That does mean women are not equal simply because only men serve on the UHJ. That is just one of the institutions of the Baha'i Faith. Women serve on all the other institutions. Women are also instrumental in electing the UHJ. In the future we will be told why only men serve on the UHJ.

Nevertheless, I went here...

Writings of Bahá’u’lláh | Bahá’í Reference Library​

...and looked through the writings of Bahá’u’lláh and searched for "woman" or "women". I found no reference. The website states that "Bahá’u’lláh authored thousands of letters, tablets, and books that, if compiled, would constitute more than 100 volumes". Obviously, I did not look through all of them, but perhaps you know where Bahá’u’lláh actually wrote something about male/female equality.

Excerpts from: Gender equality - Bahaikipedia, an encyclopedia about the Bahá’í Faith

One of the main teachings of the Bahá’í Faith is gender equality; that men and women are equal. The equality of the sexes is seen by Bahá’ís as a spiritual and moral standard that is essential for the unification of the planet and the unfoldment of world order, and in the importance of implementing the principle in individual, family, and community life. Although men and women are equal in the Bahá’í Faith, this equality does not imply sameness. Men and women are seen as having different strengths and abilities that enable them to better fill different roles. Thus there are certain teachings that in some cases give preference to one of the genders (see below).

The Bahá’í teachings is that men and women are, and always have been equal in the sight of God. Bahá’u’lláh has written:

"In this Day the Hand of divine grace hath removed all distinctions. The servants of God and His handmaidens are regarded on the same plane. Blessed is the servant who hath attained unto that which God hath decreed, and likewise the leaf moving in accordance with the breezes of His will."
(Bahá’u’lláh, from a Tablet - translated from the Persian and Arabic.) [2]

Bahá’u’lláh, further writes that spiritual station of each person depends on their devotion to God, and that women who have a higher devotion excel over men:

"By My Life! The names of handmaidens who are devoted to God are written and set down by the Pen of the Most High in the Crimson Book. They excel over men in the sight of God. How numerous are the heroes and knights in the field who are bereft of the True One and have no share in His recognition, but thou hast attained and received thy fill."
(Bahá’u’lláh, from a Tablet- translated from the Persian.) [3]

 

[Truly Enlightened]

Maybe you cannot read. I just agreed with you thus admitting I was wrong.

I said: No, it is not a hasty generalization to assume that most religions think that theirs is the only true religion. Most religions believe that.

Simple, because it has not been superseded yet, and it will not be superseded until at least the year 2852, when the next Messenger of God appears.

I read very well thank you, but I don't make assumptions. Simply repeating why you are wrong, is not an admission that you are wrong. But I suppose perception is everything. But never mind, it was expected. Since you claim your religion will be superseded by another religion, at a time no one could prove, what are some of the new changes that your current religion can envisage?

 

[ecco]

A lot happened in between the time the Bab wrote that to His followers and the time Baha'u'llah declared His Mission. In short, the Bab sent one of His disciples to find Him Whom God shall make manifest, and this disciple found Baha'u'llah because He exactly fit the description the Bab had given of what to look for. I have not read it but this is no doubt explained in God Passes By and The Dawn-Breakers.

You have not read it, but you have no doubt what it says.

These are the original writings of the Bab which are in the archives.

How do you know they weren't altered? Luther changed Biblical scripture to further his agenda. Joseph Smith made up a story to further his agenda. David Koresh interpreted scripture to further his agenda.

I did explain why it happened. The Bab means "the gate" in Persian because His primary mission was to announce the coming of one who would be greater than Him. The Bab's mission was also to bridge the gap between Islam and the Baha'i Faith.

To the victor go the spoils...

He whom God shall make manifest - Wikipedia

After the Báb's execution in 1850, there were some Bábis who claimed to be He whom God shall make manifest.[1][3] Later in 1863, Bahá'u'lláh privately laid claim to be the messianic figure, and made his claim publicly in 1866–1868. Those who followed him became known as Bahá'ís, and his claim was by far the most successful. The Azalis (those Babis who did not accept Bahá'u'lláh) objected to Bahá'u'lláh's statement,[1] and shortly after Bahá'u'lláh's claim first started to attract attention, Bahá'í historians report that Subh-i-Azal made a claim to the title.[4]
​

It's apparent that local religious politics were more of a determinant than God's manifestations.

It's no different than the power struggle that took place following Muhammed's death.

However, I may be wrong. Please show the writings of The Bab where he states that he is only an intermediate waiting the arrival He whom God shall make manifest.

 

[ecco]

I was not trying to support any assertions. ALL I was doing was describing one atheist on another forum and demonstrating how illogical he is as an example of how illogical atheists can be. I could give you many more examples. I have come to the conclusion after many years that the reasons atheists cannot believe in religion or Messengers of God is because they cannot think logically about them.

That is no reason to reference a person from another forum. There are plenty of atheists right here. The difference is that we can rebut your assertions. Someone in another forum cannot and we just have to take your word for what he did or didn't say.

I am not debating anyone here. In your dreams. As I told this atheist on the other forum, I am not trying to win any arguments. I am just trying to have a discussion. I already know God exists and I know who Baha'u'llah was so I have no need to win anything.

Then why are you posting? Why, when challenged, do you go to great lengths to defend your position?

... There is nothing to debate. If people ask me questions about my beliefs I will do my best to answer them, but I am not trying to arrogantly prove I am superior to anyone. I just have my beliefs. Atheists don't believe in God. Nobody is superior.

You use phrases like: "how illogical atheists can be". but you don't consider yourself to be arrogant or superior. Sadly, you don't even see how contradictory those two things are.

If atheists are illogical and you are not superior to atheists, then it logically follows that you too are illogical.

 

[ecco]

I did explain how the writer could have known the contents of those conversations. You just did not LIKE my explanation. That does not make you right and me wrong.

Let's review. This came about because I looked at some of the stuff you posted/linked to. In the writings of Shogi Effendi, he quotes, word for word, a conversation Baha'u'llah had with a High Level Government Official - The Grand Vizir

I asked...

How can Shoghi Effendi quote a conversation that took place a half Century earlier? A conversation between two individuals. Do you ever stop to think about the basis of your beliefs?​

I took the time to do a recap of our exchange:

He is giving me a hard time about certain things. He asked me this and I did not really have an answer. I told him I would ask you.

Duane said: I don't see what the problem is. Someone told Shoghi Effendi about the conversation.

I have posted your question on the Planet Baha'i forum and I hope to have an answer for you soon.

How Shoghi Effendi knew of a conversation between the Grand Vizir and Baha'u'llah that occurred before he was born is not an important question since it is not crucial to my belief. However, I found out that he knew because his grandfather Abdu'l-Baha told him about it.

First, you try to minimize the importance of the question which is strange because you pointed to the writings as being important to your belief system.

Then you attempt to answer the question by quoting Duane - Someone told Shoghi Effendi. When I pointed out the lameness of your response you posted on the Planet Baha'i forum and parroted their response.- his grandfather Abdu'l-Baha told him about it.

Of course, you neither questioned nor explained how the grandfather could have heard and recorded the conversations.

It's clear for everyone to see that you explained nothing.

You accept things in your religion which are demonstrably false and you accuse atheists of being illogical.

 

[ecco]

I do not care that you thought it was incoherent rambling, as if you are anyone to judge a Manifestation of God.

Of course a long term Bahai like yourself is far more qualified than I to judge a Manifestation of God.
Of course a long term Bahai like yourself is far more qualified than I to understand a Manifestation of God.

Is that why you haven't read it? Did you even know of its existence?

 

[ecco]

No, I am saying I KNOW it is the truth but I cannot prove that to anyone else.
I am also saying that I cannot prove it as one would prove a scientific fact; nobody can prove any religion that way because religion is not science.

I have never asked for proof of a religion. Why do you make a comment about proof?

Only God and His Messengers know if it is the truth.

Trailblazer: I am saying I KNOW it is the truth
Trailblazer: Only God and His Messengers know if it is the truth.

Both statements can not be true. Please do not accuse atheists of being illogical until you resolve your own contradictory comments.

 

[ecco]

I understand that over the course of thousands of years man and created gods in his own image.

I understand that most religions borrow from other religions while, at the same time, they try to present themselves as something new and different.

Then you understand wrong because this is not what happened.

Do you deny that Thor, Atlas, Athena, Efik, Bambara, Kanati, et al were gods created by man?

If you do not know that there are multiple stories of virgin births predating Jesus, you do not know history.

If you do not know that there are multiple stories of global floods predating Genesis, you do not know history.

If you do not know history, you don't have the knowledge to assert that I am wrong.

 

[ecco]

So what? It is illogical to say this disproves the Baha'i Faith. What religious people believe has NOTHING to do with what is actually the Truth from God. There is no correlation whatsoever. This is logic 101 stuff.

I think we have shown that you are no expert in logic.

 

[ecco]

You are not the only atheist I ever posted to. I have posted evidence and it was not Gleanings or any quotes.

I have also posted a bulleted list of the various categories of evidence so people could do their own research.

Yes, you have posted a lot of stuff. None of which was worthy of the term evidence.

 

[ecco]

The inner circle? You mean the UHJ. That does mean women are not equal simply because only men serve on the UHJ. That is just one of the institutions of the Baha'i Faith. Women serve on all the other institutions. Women are also instrumental in electing the UHJ. In the future we will be told why only men serve on the UHJ.

In the future.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I do not have to prove anything to you.

Then what are you doing preaching your religion here, if you are not going to bother trying to explain why anyone should believe it?

I do not care that you thought it was incoherent rambling, as if you are anyone to judge a Manifestation of God.

Claiming it to be a manifestation of god, does not make it so.

THAT is what is hilarious, although it is also really sad for you, but not for me, because I know who Baha'u'llah was.

Well aren't you the lucky one...

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

No, I am saying I KNOW it is the truth but I cannot prove that to anyone else.

Then you just believe it.

You don't know it, if you can't show it

I am also saying that I cannot prove it as one would prove a scientific fact; nobody can prove any religion that way because religion is not science.

Indeed it's not. Instead, it's indistinguishable from make-believe.

 

[Trailblazer]

Since you claim your religion will be superseded by another religion, at a time no one could prove, what are some of the new changes that your current religion can envisage?

Eight core principles of the Baha’i Faith that can be considered new are as follows. They are described in detail on the link below:

• The oneness of God.
• The oneness of humanity.
• The oneness of religion.
• Religion as a school.
• Equality of women and men.
• Harmony of religion and science.
• Universal compulsory education.
• Universal auxiliary language.

Bahá'í teachings - Wikipedia

 

[Trailblazer]

Except that it is. You don't have a choice in what your "race" is.
One does not punish or reward people for things that aren't under their control.

To some degree, belief is under your control. You can choose to believe in God or a religion. The mere fact that most people choose that means it is a choice, logically speaking.

False again.

I can choose to have a steak or chicken for dinner.
I can not choose what I believe or don't believe.

Why not? Why are they different?

Think about it: could you decide, here and now, that you are going to believe that Santa Claus is real and seriously honestly believe it - not just say it?

The analogy does not apply because God is not Santa Claus. Everyone knows that Santa is made up but 93% of people in the world believe God is real. That does not prove God exists but it certainly is an indicator.

Off course you cannot. Belief is a compulsion. I don't get to decide what I find convincing or not.

No, belief is not compulsion, at least not for every believer. It can be and should be carefully thought out and researched.
You have chosen to believe there is no God with no evidence, just as you say that believers are compelled to believe with no evidence, but the joke is on you, because there is evidence. The fact that atheists do not LIKE the evidence He provides is not going to cut it. You are still responsible, at least to LOOK at the evidence. If you toss it in the trash without looking then you have not met your responsibility. That responsibility is to yourself, not to God. God does need you to believe in Him.

Neither is belief.

Oh yes, belief is subject to free will. That does not mean everyone can choose to believe , it means that they potentially can because they have the capacity.

I can't choose to believe that 2+2 equals 5.

That is not what anyone is suggesting you believe.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you keep saying. But when asked for that evidence, all you do is repeat the claims...........

There is a lot of evidence, but I usually just post the different categories of evidence, and then if people have questions I can answer those, or if people want to know where to look up information I can post the websites.

The evidence that indicates that Baha’u’llah was a true Messenger from God (Prophet) is as follows:

1. What He was like as a person (His character);
2. What He did during His mission on earth;
3. The history of His Cause, from the time He appeared moving forward
4. The scriptures that were attributed to Him or scriptures that He wrote;
5. What others have written about Him;
6. ·The Bible prophecies that He fulfilled by His coming,
7. The prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled by His coming
8. The predictions He made that have come to pass;
9. The religion that He established (followers), what they have done and are doing now.

There is verifiable evidence of everything I listed above and there is a way to research it.

 

[Trailblazer]

If there was, it wouldn't be a religion, but instead just common knowledge...
To review all the religious claims believed today, would take multiple lifetimes.
This is why the burden of proof is on the one making the claim. Those making these claims, fail to produce valid evidence.

I am not making any claims, I just have beliefs. The burden is on you to do the necessary research if you want to believe in God... If not, it's no biggie.
There is no reason to look at all the older religions because those religious dispensations have been abrogated by the Revelation of Baha'u'llah. That means that they have been superseded and they are no longer relevant to the modern age.

And if there were valid evidence, you wouldn't have to resort to faith.
The point.

There is valid evidence but there is no proof that God exists, so we have to have some faith, but it can be a reason-based faith.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then what are you doing preaching your religion here, if you are not going to bother trying to explain why anyone should believe it?

Show me where I ever said that anyone should believe my religion....
I am not preaching anything. Atheists come at me left and right, asking me to prove my religion is true. The evidence of that is all over this forum.

Claiming it to be a manifestation of god, does not make it so.

Show me where I ever said it did. In fact, I have said repeatedly that the claim does not prove anything, only the evidence that supports the claim proves anything.

 

[Trailblazer]

You don't know it, if you can't show it

I do know it but you will never understand how I know it.

 

[Trailblazer]

You have not read it, but you have no doubt what it says.

I know because my husband told me the story. If it mattered to me and I had time I would read it.

How do you know they weren't altered? Luther changed Biblical scripture to further his agenda. Joseph Smith made up a story to further his agenda. David Koresh interpreted scripture to further his agenda.

There is no reason for me to think they were altered. I cannot look at original scriptures because they are in a protected place where nobody can alter them. Somebody has to be in charge.

It's no different than the power struggle that took place following Muhammed's death.

However, I may be wrong. Please show the writings of The Bab where he states that he is only an intermediate waiting the arrival He whom God shall make manifest.

That is what the Bab was saying in what I posted to you. It is in Selections From the Writings of the Báb and like I said the story about how Baha'u'llah was sent for and found is probably in The Dawn-breakers and/or God Passes By. My husband told me the story so I can make him go and look in the books.