Is atheism a religion?

[Truly Enlightened]

Everything is a choice, unless someone is mentally ill.
The entire court system is based upon free will.

No, they should be based upon independent investigation of truth.

One can only convince themselves, and if they are convinced they choose to believe.

Not by evidence that YOU LIKE.
And assertions with evidence should be looked at carefully if someone is interested in what the evidence if for.

It is not my job to present evidence to anyone, because they can go find it themselves.

I did not assume God exists BEFORE looking at the evidence. The evidence indicated that God exists and then I believed that God exists.
I will post the categories of evidence one more time but I will not post the evidence that is contained in those categories since that is not my job.
The evidence that indicates that Baha’u’llah was a true Messenger from God (Prophet) is as follows:

1. What He was like as a person (His character);
2. What He did during His mission on earth;
3. The history of His Cause, from the time He appeared moving forward
4. The scriptures that were attributed to Him or scriptures that He wrote;
5. What others have written about Him;
6. ·The Bible prophecies that He fulfilled by His coming,
7. The prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled by His coming
8. The predictions He made that have come to pass;
9. The religion that He established (followers), what they have done and are doing now.

There is verifiable evidence of everything I listed above.

I did not make the claim, Baha'u'llah made the claim. I just told you what that claim was.

Baha’u’llah explained how we are supposed to establish the truth of His claim. First, we examine His own Self (His character); then we examine His Revelation (everything that surrounds His Mission on earth); and then we look at His words (His Writings).

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106​

They can choose to believe that if they want to, but it is not supported by any evidence.
I can believe there is a pink unicorn in my garage if I want to, even though there is no evidence to support that.

I will post the categories of evidence one more time but I will not post the evidence that is contained in those categories since that is not my job.
The evidence that indicates that Baha’u’llah was a true Messenger from God (Prophet) is as follows:

1. What He was like as a person (His character);
2. What He did during His mission on earth;
3. The history of His Cause, from the time He appeared moving forward
4. The scriptures that were attributed to Him or scriptures that He wrote;
5. What others have written about Him;
6. ·The Bible prophecies that He fulfilled by His coming,
7. The prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled by His coming
8. The predictions He made that have come to pass;
9. The religion that He established (followers), what they have done and are doing now.

There is verifiable evidence of everything I listed above.

Mahatma Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela, Winston Churchill, Pope Francis, Barrack Obama, Michael Jackson, Elvis Presley, and many other, all share many of the same attributes you've listed above. They have influence millions, have millions of followers, have impeccable character traits, and have their words also quoted by millions. In fact, there is a real Church of Maradona("Our Diega" is the Lord's prayer), that was based on the same attributes and inspirations of a human soccer player in Argentina Iglesia Maradoniana - Wikipedia . The belief in Messengers, fulfilled prophecies, the existence of God(s), are all an unwarranted stretch of our imagination and an example of our confirmation bias.

If there is any verifiable objective evidence that can support this leap of faith, then we are all ears. Hopefully, this evidence will not be characterized as, "I'm not here to prove anything to you", or "It's up to you to find the truth for yourself", or "It is impossible to present evidence for any supernatural claims", or "It is in the way he lived, and the prophecies he foretold and predicted", or that, "he created his own religion", and "what he and others wrote about himself". Or the silly cop-out claim, "I'm not making any claims, Baha'u'llah is the one making the claim". Oh, and simply quote-mining from scriptures in his own books, is obviously far too circular to be considered as objective evidence. These categories would not be objective evidence by any standard of reasoning.

Can you point to any supernatural event attributed to the Messenger? Can you describe any objectively verifiable religious experience, that violates any of the natural laws of physics? Can you demonstrates the properties of a Messenger that allows him to exist on both plains of existence? What is the worst thing, and the best thing about your religious system, especially when compared to all other systems of beliefs? Finally, can you cite, or demonstrate, any other similar religion that was successful of maintaining a single world religious order? What rules and practices do you think will be superseded by this new religious order?

 

[ecco]

Of course I knew of its existence. Why should I answer to you as to why I have not read it? There are a lot of Baha'i Writings I have not read. What I do is my own business. It certainly does not prove anything about the Writings.

You don't have to answer to me as to why you haven't read it. You have to answer to yourself why you haven't read it.

Perhaps you are afraid to admit that you might see it, as I did, to be nothing more than incoherent rambling.

 

[ecco]

Oh yes they can both be the truth because there are different ways of knowing and God and Baha'u'llah know in a different way than I can ever know. Please do not rip my statements out of context.

I do not know from having heard from God as Baha'u'llah did, and I do not know from being All-Knowing as God is, but I know because I believe in Baha'u'llah with absolute certitude,...

I'm not ripping anything out of context. You made two comments:
Trailblazer: I am saying I KNOW it is the truth
Trailblazer: Only God and His Messengers know if it is the truth.

Both statements can not be true and you trying to redefine the word "know" doesn't change anything.

... given all the evidence I have that supports His claim.

Evidence which only a very small number of people would consider evidence.
Evidence that clearly is fictional because there is no way the information could have been known to the writer.
Evidence such as comments that are considered by believers to be prophecies but when analyzed, are clearly nothing more than vague comments based on readily available information.

 

[ecco]

ecco said: Do you deny that Thor, Atlas, Athena, Efik, Bambara, Kanati, et al were gods created by man?
If you do not know that there are multiple stories of virgin births predating Jesus, you do not know history.
If you do not know that there are multiple stories of global floods predating Genesis, you do not know history.
If you do not know history, you don't have the knowledge to assert that I am wrong.
​

You are right, humans created those things, but what humans did with religion is the corruption of the originally revealed religions of God. Baha'u'llah addressed that as follows:

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 171-172​

​

In the above, Baha'u'llah did not specify which are the "originally revealed religions of God". In fact, Baha'u'llah gives no indication of which are and are not "true" religions. If anything, he seems to be discrediting all religions (other than Bahi).

Perhaps you can show how I misinterpreted his writings.

God's religions do not borrow from other religions, that is what I meant when I said you are wrong. God's religions are Revelations from God and so they are all new and fresh as they are renewed in every age. Baha'u'llah addressed that as follows:

...
Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God.
...​

But "God's religions do not borrow from other religions".
Did not the OT of the Christians take almost all of the Tanakh?
Is the virgin birth of Jesus not borrowed from earlier religion's virgin births?
Did Jesus not say the old laws still apply?
Isn't the very idea of a Baha'u'llah Prophet/Messenger borrowed from the idea that Moses, Jesus and Mohammed were Prophet/Messengers?


That's what I have repeatedly told you, your religion is no different from any other religion ever created by man.

 

[ecco]

Yet you cannot demonstrate how you have shown that. This is the same ploy the atheist on that other forum used. He said I was illogical but when I challenged him to prove why I was illogical with evidence of what I had said he could never produce any evidence.

You really need to stop picking on a poor defenseless person who is not here to defend himself. We have no way of knowing what you said and what he said.


However, I can clearly show examples of you being illogical.

Example 1:
You making contradictory assertions:

Trailblazer: I am saying I KNOW it is the truth
Trailblazer: Only God and His Messengers know if it is the truth.

Example 2:
As evidence for your beliefs, you post links to writings. A sample of these writings, taken at random, purports to document a conversation between your messenger and a high ranking Government official. Included in the writings are lengthy direct quotations of the conversation. I showed that there is no way that anyone could have recorded the conversation and then conveyed that to the writer. You accepted the story that "his grandfather told him". You never questioned how the grandfather could have gotten the information nor how he could have recorded it verbatim. To accept such an obviously made up story as fact is illogical.

 

[ecco]

I did not post evidence. I posted a bulleted list of the categories of evidence.
If you want the evidence you have to do your own research.

Perhaps you just don't recollect.

I asked for evidence. In response, you posted cut and pastes from Gleanings.

I asked for evidence. In response, you posted links to articles.

Some of these articles you posted/linked as evidence concerned what you considered prophecies. When I did my own research, I found they weren't prophecies any more than Nostradamus' quatrains are prophecies. Your evidence was not evidence.

Some of these articles you posted/linked as evidence quoted extensively from lengthy private conversations. When I did my own research, it became clear that these private conversations could not have been recorded and passed on to the writer. Your evidence was not evidence.

 

[Trailblazer]

If one looks at the events from the point of an outsider, it appears that The Bab tried to start a new religion. That didn't work out and Baha'u'llah tried. But two "prophets" within such a short period of time didn't fit. So Baha'u'llah needed to make it look like the only thing The Bab was doing was setting the stage for Baha'u'llah.

From the pov of an outsider it might look like that but looks can be deceiving. There is a good reason why the religions were revealed so close together and it all makes sense if you know what actually happened. That information is contained in the authoritative writings of the Baha'i Faith. You do not get accurate information about a religion from outsiders whose sole purpose is to discredit it.

Conspiracy theories abound. You can believe them if you wish, or you can read the official sources which contain the truth about the Baha'i Faith. It does not matter to me.

This is very important to the entire foundation of belief in Bahai. Yet you really don't know. You really haven't researched it for yourself.

You do not know what I have researched. I am well aware of all the conspiracy theories. I have just chosen not to believe them because I have enough evidence to prove they are false.

All new religions have undergone the same kind of calumnies from those who have ulterior motives to discredit them.

“From the beginning of the world until the present time each ‘Manifestation’ 1 sent from God has been opposed by an embodiment of the ‘Powers of Darkness’.

This dark power has always endeavoured to extinguish the light. Tyranny has ever sought to overcome justice. Ignorance has persistently tried to trample knowledge underfoot. This has, from the earliest ages, been the method of the material world.

In the time of Moses, Pharaoh set himself to prevent the Mosaic Light being spread abroad.

In the day of Christ, Annas and Caiaphas inflamed the Jewish people against Him and the learned doctors of Israel joined together to resist His Power. All sorts of calumnies were circulated against Him. The Scribes and Pharisees conspired to make the people believe Him to be a liar, an apostate, and a blasphemer. They spread these slanders throughout the whole Eastern world against Christ, and caused Him to be condemned to a shameful death!

In the case of Muhammad also, the learned doctors of His day determined to extinguish the light of His influence. They tried by the power of the sword to prevent the spread of His teaching.

In spite of all their efforts the Sun of Truth shone forth from the horizon. In every case the army of light vanquished the powers of darkness on the battlefield 103 of the world, and the radiance of the Divine Teaching illumined the earth. Those who accepted the Teaching and worked for the Cause of God became luminous stars in the sky of humanity.

Now, in our own day, history repeats itself.

Those who would have men believe that religion is their own private property once more bring their efforts to bear against the Sun of Truth: they resist the Command of God; they invent calumnies, not having arguments against it, neither proofs. They attack with masked faces, not daring to come forth into the light of day.

Our methods are different, we do not attack, neither calumniate; we do not wish to dispute with them; we bring forth proofs and arguments; we invite them to confute our statements. They cannot answer us, but instead, they write all they can think of against the Divine Messenger, Bahá’u’lláh.”Paris Talks, pp. 102-103

 

[Trailblazer]

It is not about assumptions. It is about looking at and understanding history.

People of all religions believe their Messengers/Prophets are real. People of all religions believe other religion's Messengers/Prophets are false. You, and your fellow Bahai believers, do not believe all other prophets are real.

That is absolutely untrue. Baha'is believe that all the Messengers/Prophets of past religions were real and that they were of equal stature. The Unity of God means that all Messengers/Prophets (Manifestations of God) were the reflection of God's Will and Purpose.

"Beware, O believers in the Unity of God, lest ye be tempted to make any distinction between any of the Manifestations of His Cause, or to discriminate against the signs that have accompanied and proclaimed their Revelation. This indeed is the true meaning of Divine Unity, if ye be of them that apprehend and believe this truth. Be ye assured, moreover, that the works and acts of each and every one of these Manifestations of God, nay whatever pertaineth unto them, and whatsoever they may manifest in the future, are all ordained by God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Whoso maketh the slightest possible difference between their persons, their words, their messages, their acts and manners, hath indeed disbelieved in God, hath repudiated His signs, and betrayed the Cause of His Messengers.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 59-60
​

The Baha'i Faith is the only religion that has this theology. All the other religious believers believe that their Messenger/Prophet is "the only way" and their religion is the only true religion. Baha'is believe that all religions are true but only one is the current one God wants us to follow, because it has updated social teachings and laws and it has a new message that is pertinent fro this age.

If, throughout all of history, all Messengers/Prophets are demonstrably false, it is illogical to believe that - suddenly - one is real.

But throughout all of history they were all real, so it makes sense that the next Messenger would also be real.

 

[Trailblazer]

That is patently untrue. The best that you and your fellow Bahai's could come up with was "someone's grandfather told him". You have not mentioned "Nabil" in any post to me. You have not explained who Nabil is. You have not provided evidence to show that he was there or a rational explanation for how he could have been there.

I am not striking out you. I am pointing out the infeasibility of your arguments. The ones that change from post to post.

Maybe you should go back and look at what I posted because I did explain it to you. I do not have the time to go back and find that.

All the evidence you have presented to show that The Bab or Ballulah are messengers has been completely debunked. It is no more valid than the stories in the Gospels.

If you really think that you have debunked the entire Baha'i Faith because Shoghi Effendi quotes one measly conversation between Baha'u'llah and the Vizar that you do not think he could have known about you have a serious problem with logic. This is not comparable to the Gospels because we cannot prove any of those stories ever took place. By contrast, there were witnesses who were not Baha'is who can testify to the history of the Baha'i Faith.

 

[Trailblazer]

You don't have to answer to me as to why you haven't read it. You have to answer to yourself why you haven't read it.

I do not have to answer to you or to myself. I am not required to read everything that Baha'u'llah has written.

Perhaps you are afraid to admit that you might see it, as I did, to be nothing more than incoherent rambling.

I am not afraid if anything I might find because I know the Truth.
I am not qualified to judge a Manifestation of God and how he writes.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm not ripping anything out of context. You made two comments:
Trailblazer: I am saying I KNOW it is the truth
Trailblazer: Only God and His Messengers know if it is the truth.

Both statements can not be true and you trying to redefine the word "know" doesn't change anything.

Know has various meanings; because there is more than one way to know, know can mean more than one thing.
Definition of know
1. transitive verb

1. 1a(1): to perceive directly : have direct cognition of (2): to have understanding of importance of knowing oneself(3): to recognize the nature of : discernb(1): to recognize as being the same as something previously known(2): to be acquainted or familiar with (3): to have experience of
2. 2a: to be aware of the truth or factuality of : be convinced or certain ofb: to have a practical understanding of knows how to write
3. 3archaic: to have sexual intercourse with
4. intransitive verb
5. 1: to have knowledge
6. 2: to be or become cognizant —sometimes used interjectionally with you especially as a filler in informal speech

Definition of KNOW

Evidence which only a very small number of people would consider evidence.

Matthew 7:13-14 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”​

As this relates to evidence, the real evidence for God is the evidence that most people do not find at the narrow gate... It is the Baha’i Faith.

As this relates to religion, the religion at the narrow gate is the religion God wants us to find and follow, and it is the gate that leads to eternal life. But it is not that easy for most people to find this gate because most people are steeped in religious tradition or attached to what they already believe. If they do not have a religion, most people are suspicious of the *new religion* and the *new messenger.* If they are atheists they do not like the *idea* of messengers of God or they think they are all phonies.

It is difficult to get through the narrow gate because one has to be willing to give up all their preconceived ideas, have an open mind, and think for themselves. Most people do not normally embark upon such a journey. They go through the wide gate, the easy one to get through – their own religious tradition or their own preconceived ideas about God or no god. They follow that broad road that is easiest for them to travel. That is human nature.

 

[Trailblazer]

In the above, Baha'u'llah did not specify which are the "originally revealed religions of God". In fact, Baha'u'llah gives no indication of which are and are not "true" religions. If anything, he seems to be discrediting all religions (other than Bahi).

Perhaps you can show how I misinterpreted his writings.

No, Baha'u'llah was just saying that the older religions have been corrupted. He is not required to list all of them. The purpose of this passage is to enjoin us to turn towards the Manifestation of God for this age, Baha'u'llah, because previous have been affected as it says in bold type.

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 171-172​

 

[Trailblazer]

You really need to stop picking on a poor defenseless person who is not here to defend himself. We have no way of knowing what you said and what he said.

I did stop and I admitted I was wrong to post it. When are you going to get over it?

However, I can clearly show examples of you being illogical.

Example 1:
You making contradictory assertions:

I explained why it was not contradictory in a previous post. Know can mean more than one thing depending upon the context.

Example 2:
As evidence for your beliefs, you post links to writings.

Below is what I posted. The scriptures are part of the evidence. There is nothing illogical about that.

The evidence that indicates that Baha’u’llah was a true Messenger from God (Prophet) is as follows:

1. What He was like as a person (His character);
2. What He did during His mission on earth;
3. The history of His Cause, from the time He appeared moving forward;
4. The scriptures that were attributed to Him or scriptures that He wrote;
5. What others have written about Him;
6. ·The Bible prophecies that He fulfilled by His coming;
7. The prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled by His coming;
8. The predictions He made that have come to pass;
9. The religion that He established (followers), what they have done and are doing now.

 

[Trailblazer]

Perhaps you just don't recollect.

Perhaps I don't. I am just a fallible human being so I make mistakes and it does not bother me a bit, because I do not have to be infallible. Only God is Infallible.

I do not have to be right all the time, and I can admit it when I am wrong, but I will not admit when I am not wrong because that is unjust.

I have never seen you admit you are wrong, so I guess you are always right.
I would not want that job, that is God's job.

You sure spend a lot of time pointing out how you think I am wrong, and I do not wonder why you do that because it is obvious. Most people know why so I do not even have to say.

What an utter waste of time, pointing out other peoples mistakes.

“The most hateful characteristic of man is fault-finding.” (‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Star of the West, Vol. IV, No.11, p. 192)

26: O SON OF BEING! How couldst thou forget thine own faults and busy thyself with the faults of others? Whoso doeth this is accursed of Me. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 10

 

[Trailblazer]

Mahatma Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela, Winston Churchill, Pope Francis, Barrack Obama, Michael Jackson, Elvis Presley, and many other, all share many of the same attributes you've listed above. They have influence millions, have millions of followers, have impeccable character traits, and have their words also quoted by millions. In fact, there is a real Church of Maradona("Our Diega" is the Lord's prayer), that was based on the same attributes and inspirations of a human soccer player in Argentina Iglesia Maradoniana - Wikipedia . The belief in Messengers, fulfilled prophecies, the existence of God(s), are all an unwarranted stretch of our imagination and an example of our confirmation bias.

If there is any verifiable objective evidence that can support this leap of faith, then we are all ears. Hopefully, this evidence will not be characterized as, "I'm not here to prove anything to you", or "It's up to you to find the truth for yourself", or "It is impossible to present evidence for any supernatural claims", or "It is in the way he lived, and the prophecies he foretold and predicted", or that, "he created his own religion", and "what he and others wrote about himself". Or the silly cop-out claim, "I'm not making any claims, Baha'u'llah is the one making the claim". Oh, and simply quote-mining from scriptures in his own books, is obviously far too circular to be considered as objective evidence. These categories would not be objective evidence by any standard of reasoning.

Can you point to any supernatural event attributed to the Messenger? Can you describe any objectively verifiable religious experience, that violates any of the natural laws of physics? Can you demonstrates the properties of a Messenger that allows him to exist on both plains of existence? What is the worst thing, and the best thing about your religious system, especially when compared to all other systems of beliefs? Finally, can you cite, or demonstrate, any other similar religion that was successful of maintaining a single world religious order? What rules and practices do you think will be superseded by this new religious order?

Sorry, I do not have any of what you are looking for.
We have covered this ground before so I already know that.

 

[ecco]

ecco said: ↑
It is not about assumptions. It is about looking at and understanding history.

People of all religions believe their Messengers/Prophets are real. People of all religions believe other religion's Messengers/Prophets are false. You, and your fellow Bahai believers, do not believe all other prophets are real.​

That is absolutely untrue. Baha'is believe that all the Messengers/Prophets of past religions were real and that they were of equal stature.

Nonsense. You believe the Messengers/Prophets that you want to believe in are true Messengers/Prophets. You do not believe the Messengers/Prophets that you do not want to believe in.

You don't believe Joseph Smith is a real Messenger/Prophet.
You don't believe Sun Myung Moon is a real Messenger/Prophet.
You don't believe David Koresh is a real Messenger/Prophet.
You don't believe Marshall Applewhite is a real Messenger/Prophet.

So what I wrote is not "absolutely untrue". What I wrote is absolutely true.

 

[ecco]

Maybe you should go back and look at what I posted because I did explain it to you. I do not have the time to go back and find that.

You don't "have the time to go back and find it" because you know there is nothing for you to find because you did not explain anything.

I did go back as I showed a few posts ago. The answer you posted, attributed to your Bahai forum, is that someone's grandfather was the source. You never explained how the grandfather could have been at the meetings or how the grandfather could have recorded the conversations verbatim.

 

[Trailblazer]

Nonsense. You believe the Messengers/Prophets that you want to believe in are true Messengers/Prophets. You do not believe the Messengers/Prophets that you do not want to believe in.

You don't believe Joseph Smith is a real Messenger/Prophet.
You don't believe Sun Myung Moon is a real Messenger/Prophet.
You don't believe David Koresh is a real Messenger/Prophet.
You don't believe Marshall Applewhite is a real Messenger/Prophet.

So what I wrote is not "absolutely untrue". What I wrote is absolutely true.

No, you are wrong, because I never said that Baha'is believe that EVERYONE who ever claimed to be a Prophet was a true Prophet. To believe that would be illogical and completely insane, because there have been many false prophets.

NOTHING Baha'is believe is about what we want. It is ALL based upon what was revealed by Baha'u'llah and the other central figures of the Baha'i Faith, period. There is a short list of Prophets that the Baha'i Faith accepts as universal Manifestations of God: Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

There have also been other Prophets, but we do not know who all of them were. However, we do know who was not a Prophet... Those you listed were not prophets. Joseph Smith was a seer and we hold him in high regard, but that is not the same as a Prophet. As Jesus said "you shall know them by their fruits."

Question: How many kinds of divine Prophets are there?
Answer: There are three kinds of divine Prophets. One kind are the universal Manifestations, which are even as the sun. Through Their advent the world of existence is renewed, a new cycle is inaugurated, a new religion is revealed, souls are quickened to a new life, and East and West are flooded with light. These Souls are the universal Manifestations of God and have been sent forth to the entire world and the generality of mankind.

Another kind of Prophets are followers and promulgators, not leaders and law-givers, but they are nonetheless the recipients of the hidden inspirations of God. Yet another kind are Prophets Whose prophethood has been limited to a particular locality. But the universal Manifestations are all-encompassing: They are like the root, and all others are as the branches; they are like the sun, and all others are as the moon and the stars.
The Three Kinds of Prophets​

 

[ecco]

If you really think that you have debunked the entire Baha'i Faith because Shoghi Effendi quotes one measly conversation between Baha'u'llah and the Vizar that you do not think he could have known about you have a serious problem with logic.

No, actually I debunked all the stories that use extensive quotes to justify their "authenticity".

I also debunked the prophesies that really aren't aren't prophesies.

Your claims about the "character" of Babullah are just based on the glowing writers of his followers.

Also, the writings of Babullah, many (most?) of which you admittedly have never read, are incoherent ramblings as I have shown.



Bottom line, Bahai is just another religion with the same kind of proofs that all other religions have - nothing.

Since it is relatively recent, we can see that's it's just from a couple of guys who were unhappy with Islam.

 

[Trailblazer]

You don't "have the time to go back and find it" because you know there is nothing for you to find because you did not explain anything.

I did go back as I showed a few posts ago. The answer you posted, attributed to your Bahai forum, is that someone's grandfather was the source. You never explained how the grandfather could have been at the meetings or how the grandfather could have recorded the conversations verbatim.

You are wrong, I did explain it and you are in luck, because I normally save posts like that one in Word documents, so I was able to locate it rather quickly. I am sure you will find something else to complain about, but I do not care. You cannot say I did not offer a LOGICAL EXPLANATION.

ecco said: I asked how, 80 years after the fact, Shogi Effendi could quote word for word from the conversation. Why is this important? If there is no logical way for him to have been able to do that, then a rational person must accept the fact that the writings are fabrications.

Trailblazer said: Did you ever go to college and do research? I did. I have two post graduate degrees so I did a lot of research and i wrote a lot of research papers. So I know what "primary resource material" is.

I got some more answers from Planet Baha'i today that explain a logical way that he could have known word for word what the Grand Vizir and Baha’u’llah said.

Bold was added by me for emphasis.

The question is, "How could Shoghi Effendi have known these things?"

Actually, in Shoghi Effendi's case, the answer is rather simple: like any other author seeking to chronicle historical events, he did his research and relied as much as possible on primary source material.

You've heard of The Dawnbreakers, also known as Nabil's Narrative. Nabil-i-A'zam, one of the nineteen apostles of Baha'u'llah, did extensive research and conducted interviews in the course of writing this history of the Babi and early Baha'i Faiths, a work which Shoghi Effendi himself translated into English and published in 1932. A lot of the material in God Passes By is based on The Dawnbreakers.