Is Atheism (et al) a Worldview?

[IndigoChild5559]

But there are feelings and attitudes that many atheists develop in our interactions with theists, but it's not realy a belief system.

Good post. I completely agree that atheism is not a belief system. I only want to reply to just this one statement.

I've been talking to atheists since my junior year in highschool, and quite frequently since I began interacting on religious forums via computer in 1991. I have found that the feelings of atheists range from a good natured "live and let live," to outright hostility. Just like anyone else, when they encounter frustration dealing with religious people, some just handle it better than others. We are not all equally gifted in patience.

 

[F1fan]

Good post. I completely agree that atheism is not a belief system. I only want to reply to just this one statement.

I've been talking to atheists since my junior year in highschool, and quite frequently since I began interacting on religious forums via computer in 1991. I have found that the feelings of atheists range from a good natured "live and let live," to outright hostility. Just like anyone else, when they encounter frustration dealing with religious people, some just handle it better than others. We are not all equally gifted in patience.

The internet and the rise of the acceptance of atheism via Dawkins, Dennet, Hitchens, and Harris has helped atheists be more vocal. Most in my family have no idea I'm an atheist. The few that know were shocked. Most everyone I've told is shocked, and their reactions are quite notable. If I was gay I would have more acceptance than being atheist. There's still a very strong prejudice against non-believers and I have no idea what would happen if the prejudice got worse.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The internet and the rise of the acceptance of atheism via Dawkins, Dennet, Hitchens, and Harris has helped atheists be more vocal.

I'm sure that's quite true, although atheists have also told me that they really dislike the four horsemen of the apocalypse because they are so abrasive.

Most in my family have no idea I'm an atheist. The few that know were shocked. Most everyone I've told is shocked, and their reactions are quite notable. If I was gay I would have more acceptance than being atheist.

I'm really sorry to hear that you get these responses.

I know that when I was young and very sheltered, when I first began meeting atheists, I was at a complete loss of how to respond. I must have looked like a deer in the headlights. LOL Atheists had been abstractions to me that my religious community summarily dismissed. When I actually became friends with some through common interests, I found I really had no idea what they actually thought and why. I spent a long time listening to them, trying to understand.

Today, atheists don't bother me in the slightest. Sure, we disagree, but that's all just part of having separate brains.

If it makes you feel any better, people get shut and and dismissed and bullied for all sorts of different reasons, from being fat to being disabled. People used to call me a freak and not associate with me because I was, well, odd. So yeah, I know how it feels.

There's still a very strong prejudice against non-believers and I have no idea what would happen if the prejudice got worse.

It's the sort of prejudice that is only fixed with interaction. The more we isolate ourselves into groups that only have people who share our views, the more the prejudice grows.

 

[PureX]

Atheism isn't any sort of belief system, quite the contrary.

I posted that atheism is a significant aspect of a specific world-view. A world-view that holds to the belief that if any gods exist, the atheist would know about it, or if they don't, or can't know about it, then the proposed gods don't matter. It is a world view based on the meta-importance of presumed knowledge, and the rejection and disparagement of faith, intuition, and any similar means of motivation.

There's no ideology that is taught and accepted.

Of course there is, and every self-proclaimed atheist on here is constantly iterating and trying to teach it. Including you.

But there are feelings and attitudes that many atheists develop in our interactions with theists, but it's not realy a belief system.

A lot of that animosity is the result of a bias that cannot tolerate criticism

In reality atheists defer to knowledge and how it is presented. There is no knowledge about gods that inform anyone that they exist in reality.

Yes, that is what I just posted, above, and that is the common (atheist) ideological world-view being discussed, ... that you keep trying to claim doesn't exist.

 

[PureX]

I would say this is common among atheists but isn't always the case.

A baby is an atheist, but really doesn't have any worldview.

A baby is not an atheist. That's just silly nonsense. Neither is a tree or a rock or the moon an atheist.

A person who simply doesn't care enough to seriously question as to whether God exists, is an atheist,

No, they are not. They are simply ignorant and apathetic. I don't mean that as an insult. I mean it literally. They are ignoring the question because they don't care about the answer.

Not all atheists say "God does not exist."

Not all racist bigots say, "I am a racist bigot". In fact, most will deny it vociferously. And yet they remain racist bigots despite their vociferous denials.

A person can say explicitly, "I am an atheist" saying "I just don't believe in God," but never says "I believe there is no God."

No one cares what they say they believe or don't believe. Humans lie about this all the time. And even believe their own lies while they're telling them.

Indeed this is a basic difference between hard/strong/positive atheists and weak/soft/negative atheists.

You are quite wrongly assuming that the person defines the content of the label they wear. They don't. The philosophical ideal determines and defines what atheism is and isn't.

If I might give an example, you can have an agnostic who has seriously considered the issue, and can't make up their mind. They lack a belief in God, so they are a kind of atheist, but they do not say, "There is not God."

It doesn't matter what they say. They do not define atheism.

What is very, very common is for people to conflate the worldview of secular humanism with atheism. this is because that world view is so common among atheists.

It's also very common among theists. Even religious theists.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

A baby is not an atheist. That's just silly nonsense. Neither is a tree or a rock or the moon an atheist.

No, they are not. They are simply ignorant and apathetic. I don't mean that as an insult. I mean it literally. They are ignoring the question because they don't care about the answer.

The definition of an atheist, whether you like it or not, is any person who lacks a belief in God/gods. That is true of a baby, and is true of someone who simply doesn't care to figure it out.

Not all racist bigots say, "I am a racist bigot". In fact, most will deny it vociferously. And yet they remain racist bigots despite their vociferous denials.

This is a terrible analogy. A person can certainly be unaware of their bias. But there is no such thing as a person who believes in God but is unaware of it.

No one cares what they say they believe or don't believe. Humans lie about this all the time. And even believe their own lies while they're telling them.

Wow, I feel really sorry for you. It must be awful to live in a world where you think everyone is constantly trying to deceive you. How can you possibly have a normal discussion with anyone if you are constantly thinking they are probably lying to you?

Yes, humans lie. But not all the time. If someone tells me, "I'm a Jehovah's Witness," unless I have direct evidence that they are lying, my assumption should be that they are telling the truth.

You are quite wrongly assuming that the person defines the content of the label they wear. They don't. The philosophical ideal determines and defines what atheism is and isn't.

Only the person has the ability to tell you what they do and don't believe. You are not a mind reader. In fact, telling someone "You don't really think/feel that. You really think/feel this other thing," is a form of emotional abuse. There is even a slang term for doing this that is so awful that if I said it, the mods would have a thing or two to say to me. If someone tells you "I just don't believe in God," you need to believe them.

It doesn't matter what they say.

It DOES matter if they say they are an atheist, just as it would matter if I say to you I'm a Republican/Democrat or if Susan down the street says she is a feminist. Again, unless you have direct evidence that someone is lying, you need to take them at their word that they know what they believe (or don't believe).

They do not define atheism.

Neither do you. The word has a given meaning: lack of a belief in God/gods. You, I, and everyone else have no authority to alter that definition.

It's also very common among theists. Even religious theists.

There is no such thing as a theist in the typical sense of the word who is a secular humanist. If God is understood to be a supernatural being, then theist by definition is not a materialist. A secular humanist believes that only matter and energy exist. That excludes supernatural beings like God.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Of course there is, and every self-proclaimed atheist on here is constantly iterating and trying to teach it. Including you.

Please list the ontology, epistimology, and axiology of atheism.

 

[Whateverist]

Please list the ontology, epistimology, and axiology of atheism.

Excuse me for butting in but I'd say the ontology of atheism is the view of physicalism. Anything that exists is composed of stuff. It a 'view from no where' which makes no sense of our inner life.

Atheistic epistemology leans heavily on science and logic, leaving out or at least devaluing the humanities in the process.

Axiology is based heavily on utility or the thought that values don't really exist. They are 'just made up' or at least arbitrary, sometimes attributed to the hegemony of various religions.

 

[Tomef]

It was suggested and refuted in another thread that atheism is a worldview. Is it? Is theism? Agnosticism? Apatheism? Ignoticism? Transtheism?

Or are they a part of what constitutes a worldview?

Explain your reasoning.

A way of thinking about stuff (and things) what don’t need no gods. So, like, mebbe, yeah.

 

[firedragon]

It was suggested and refuted in another thread that atheism is a worldview. Is it? Is theism? Agnosticism? Apatheism? Ignoticism? Transtheism?

Or are they a part of what constitutes a worldview?

Explain your reasoning.

While theism often brings with it a set of doctrines, practices, and narratives, atheism does not inherently provide these. Therefore, while both can influence one's understanding of the world, theism typically represents a more structured worldview, whereas atheism is a position that can be part of various worldviews.

 

[Tomef]

Atheism is not robust enough to be a worldview.
It can be part of a worldview but by itself simply states a lack of belief.

A world view requires an ontology, a basis of morality and a set of basic beliefs, not just the lack of a single one.

Atheism answers no questions about reality except that an individual lacks a belief in any God.

How can that be called a worldview?

You may be right. Here’s the new religion I created -

Once upon a time, there was a being who, like, made everything. He is the source of all knowledge (which, incidentally, we have to discover for ourselves).

He banned shoes on Tuesdays, laces on Wednesdays and spoonerism.

Believers who follow the true footwear and speech paths can declare themselves righteous. They can speak to the being, which, over time, will lead them to imagine they see he/she/it working in the world.

After death, shoe and lace-using sinners and wicked spoonerists will be burned in a pit of eternal flames, and believers can feel smug as **** as they float about in a bling sky-city and harmonise day and night (actually there is no night).

Not so much a worldview as an alternative (IOW fictional) reality.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Excuse me for butting in but I'd say the ontology of atheism is the view of physicalism. Anything that exists is composed of stuff. It a 'view from no where' which makes no sense of our inner life.

Atheistic epistemology leans heavily on science and logic, leaving out or at least devaluing the humanities in the process.

Axiology is based heavily on utility or the thought that values don't really exist. They are 'just made up' or at least arbitrary, sometimes attributed to the hegemony of various religions.

Well, I am an atheist and I don't find any of the 3 categories you listed for atheism.

 

[PureX]

The definition of an atheist, whether you like it or not, is any person who lacks a belief in God/gods.

There is no other definition of an "atheist" than "one who professes atheism". And atheism is not defined by whatever some idiot that claims to be an atheist thinks it is. It is defined as the antithetical position to theism. There is no reason for the term to exist except as the antithetical to theism. Nor is theism defined by whatever some idiot calling themselves a theist thinks it is. Theism is defined by the proposition that God/gods exist. And so atheism is defined by the antithetical proposition that God/gods do not exist. What some person or other "believes" about the existence or non-existence of gods is completely irrelevant to the definitions of the terms.

A lot of atheists like to live in this fantasy of a kind of "kangaroo court reality" where they imagine that they are the judge that gets to decide what everything is and what everything means. But they aren't. And they don't. They don't get to define theism, nor do they get to define atheism. The terms are defined by the proposition and antithetical proposition they represent. NOT BY ANY PERSON'S BELIEF OR UNBELIEF.

(Now I predict you will run to the dictionary and start posting examples of the misuse of these terms as though their misuse somehow justifies itself, and consequently, justifies your continued misuse.)

 

[PureX]

Please list the ontology, epistimology, and axiology of atheism.

Why? I suspect you aren't going to consider a word I post except to argue and negate. If you were open and willing, you could have already done this for yourself. Or at least been able to ask specific questions.

 

[paarsurrey]

Is Atheism (et al) a Worldview?

There is no other definition of an "atheist" than "one who professes atheism". And atheism is not defined by whatever some idiot that claims to be an atheist thinks it is.

Excellent.

Regards

 

[Whateverist]

Well, I am an atheist and I don't find any of the 3 categories you listed for atheism.

I probably should have been clearer. These are not characteristics of all atheists, just most characteristic of those I’ve interacted with online as well as of myself when I considered myself a de facto atheist.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I probably should have been clearer. These are not characteristics of all atheists, just most characteristic of those I’ve interacted with online as well as of myself when I considered myself a de facto atheist.

Well, now you have met another version of an atheist.

 

[PureX]

Excuse me for butting in but I'd say the ontology of atheism is the view of physicalism. Anything that exists is composed of stuff. It a 'view from no where' which makes no sense of our inner life.

Atheistic epistemology leans heavily on science and logic, leaving out or at least devaluing the humanities in the process.

Axiology is based heavily on utility or the thought that values don't really exist. They are 'just made up' or at least arbitrary, sometimes attributed to the hegemony of various religions.

I disagree somewhat with this last one. I think most atheists place great value and importance on their own ability to "know" things via empirical (objective) reasoning. To the point where they tend to elevate this 'knowing' via science and empiricism to near divine status while ignoring, rejecting, and belittling the various other means and methods we humans have available to us for negotiating with the mysteries of existence.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Why?

You are claiming that atheism is worldview. A world view has a minimum of three things: an ontology, an epistimology, and an axiology. In order for you to prove your case, you will need to identify those.

I suspect you aren't going to consider a word I post except to argue and negate.

I have changed a number of opinions of mine on significant things in my life. I do indeed listen to others, although sometimes I have to chew on an idea for a while, a day, a week, years. But yes, I do actually respond to evidence and good arguments. So I cannot promise you that I will agree with you. But I can promise you that I will be open and listen.

I am absolutely not here just to argue and negate.

If you were open and willing, you could have already done this for yourself. Or at least been able to ask specific questions.

The reason that I have not "already done this for myself" is because atheism has no ontology, epistimology, or axiology. That's why I was trying to explain to you that we cannot consider it a world view. Atheism is limited to "I don't have a belief in God/gods." That's not a worldview.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

There is no other definition of an "atheist" than "one who professes atheism".

Oxford:
a·the·ist
/ˈāTHēəst/
noun
a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

Merriam-Webster:
atheist
noun
athe·ist ˈā-thē-ist
: a person who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods : one who subscribes to or advocates atheism

Cambridge:
atheist
noun [ C ] religion
us /ˈeɪ.θi.ɪst/ uk /ˈeɪ.θi.ɪst/
Add to word list
someone who does not believe in any god or gods, or who believes that no god or gods exist:

And atheism is not defined by whatever some idiot that claims to be an atheist thinks it is. It is defined as the antithetical position to theism.

Every word is defined as it is commonly used. An atheist as an individual does not define atheist, and neither do you.You can only LEARN what it means. Languages evolve over time, and present definitions can be found in dictionaries. Who do you think you are to pronounce the dictionary wrong?

There is no reason for the term to exist except as the antithetical to theism. Nor is theism defined by whatever some idiot calling themselves a theist thinks it is. Theism is defined by the proposition that God/gods exist. And so atheism is defined by the antithetical proposition that God/gods do not exist.

But that is not the case, as I have proven by my three dictionary quotes. They define it as a lack of belief in God/gods.

Only one example includes a subcategory of that, which is the belief there is no God. That third example uses the word OR, meaning both are not necessary in order to be an atheist. A person who lacks belief in God but does not believe there is no god, is therefore considered an atheist.

What some person or other "believes" about the existence or non-existence of gods is completely irrelevant to the definitions of the terms.

I'm sure you realize this includes you.

A lot of atheists like to live in this fantasy of a kind of "kangaroo court reality" where they imagine that they are the judge that gets to decide what everything is and what everything means.

Strange. I've never met an atheist like this. What I HAVE found to be common is that they care a great deal about truth and accuracy, which is why they have a high bar for evidence, and use words painstakingly.

Are you sure you aren't describing yourself?

Now I predict you will run to the dictionary

Of COURSE I will turn to the dictionary! If we are disputing what a word means, a dictionary is the authoritative source to go to.

The question is, Why don't you?