Is Baha'u'llah true or false Prophet?

[Trailblazer]

Shodhgi Effendi calls it a "shameful sexual abberation" a "handicap" "highly condemned" and insists that people who are openly or "flagrantly" homosexual should if they refuse to improve "he should have his voting rights taken away".
Source: Homosexuality

I'll leave that to critical thinkers to decide.

To assume what a messenger says is "fundamentally true" where it disagrees with the results of the scientific method is to be opposed to the scientific method in my view.
'You see our whole approach to each matter is based on the belief that God sends us divinely inspired Educators; what they tell us is fundamentally true, what science tells us today is true; tomorrow may be entirely changed to better explain a new set of facts.'
Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - Arohanui: Letters from Shoghi Effendi to New Zealand, Pages 85-86

So Baha'u'llah forbids cursing yet curses pretty much every non-belliever ever making one of the "fruits" of the Baha'i faith hypocrisy in my view.

I also not you didn't even bother to address Baha'u'llah basically gloating over the murder of one of his enemies at the hands of his friends in the Kitab-i-Aqdas.

What you 'believe' are bad fruits is just your personal opinion, yet you list Bad Fruits of the Baha'i Faith as if it was a fact.

You are free to believe whatever you want to believe about the Baha'i Faith and Baha'u'llah but beliefs do not not change reality.

I do not reject something taught by the Baha'i Faith just because *I don't like it.*
Whether I like it or not has absolutely NO BEARING upon whether it is the Truth from God or not.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I bet the followers of Huitzilopochtli thought the same about the law of human sacrifice.

That is what life is all about Daniel, God gives us choices. Which is the gift of a rational mind.

It is also our curse, if not used in the knowledge and light that is of God.

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

That is what life is all about Daniel, God gives us choices. Which is the gift of a rational mind.

It is also our curse, if not used in the knowledge and light that is of God.

Regards Tony

There you go cursing non-believers after your idol Baha'u'llah forbid you from cursing people. Really Baha'i don't seem to give two hoots about Baha'i law and they expect non-believers to? Please.

 

[danieldemol]

I do not reject something taught by the Baha'i Faith just because *I don't like it.*
Whether I like it or not has absolutely NO BEARING upon whether it is the Truth from God or not.

Great, so demonstrate that it is the truth from God as opposed to something you like because it reflects your biases and we won't have a difference of opinion in my view.

 

[Trailblazer]

There you go cursing non-believers after your idol Baha'u'llah forbid you from cursing people.

Tony did not curse nonbelievers. He said "It is also our curse...."

 

[Trailblazer]

Great, so demonstrate that it is the truth from God as opposed to something you like because it reflects your biases and we won't have a difference of opinion in my view.

Great, so demonstrate that it is not the truth from God as opposed to something you don't like because it reflects your biases.

Nobody can demonstrate that it is the truth from God, or that it is not the truth from God. It is all a matter of opinion.

 

[danieldemol]

Tony did not curse nonbelievers. He said "It is also our curse...."

Actually what he said in full was, "It is also our curse, if not used in the knowledge and light that is of God."

In my view the implication here is that there are people who do not use the knowledge and light that is of God and they are accursed. But the relevance was that he was not saying this to an atheist, he was saying it to someone who doesn't believe in his idol Baha'u'llah.

So in essence I think he was saying that the rejectors of Baha'u'llah are accursed.

But @TransmutingSoul is able to speak for himself if he so desires to correct me if I've misapprehended his clearly conditional *if* statement.

 

[danieldemol]

Great, so demonstrate that it is not the truth from God as opposed to something you don't like because it reflects your biases.

Reversing the burden of proof is a logical fallacy used to decieve ignorant people in my view. If you can't demonstrate Baha'u'llah is the truth from God it would be unwise of me to surrender my critical thought process to accept something as true which has never been demonstrated as I see it.

Nobody can demonstrate that it is the truth from God,

Well we wholeheartedly agree on something.

or that it is not the truth from God.

That is your opinion, and one that i don't share. In my view all one has to do to demonstrate it is not the truth from God is keep copper molten in its mine for 70 years. It is unlikely to happen given that on the one hand Baha'i have the resources to engage in such a fools errand but are evidently afraid of their God being exposed, whilst on the other hand it would only be worthwhile to divert funds from more needed endeavours such as assisting the poor if the Baha'i faith were ever to become significant enough for a Baha'i world theocracy to rear its head as i see it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Tony did not curse nonbelievers. He said "It is also our curse...."

Actually what he said in full was, "It is also our curse, if not used in the knowledge and light that is of God."

In my view the implication here is that there are people who do not use the knowledge and light that is of God and they are accursed. But the relevance was that he was not saying this to an atheist, he was saying it to someone who doesn't believe in his idol Baha'u'llah.

So in essence I think he was saying that the rejectors of Baha'u'llah are accursed.

But @TransmutingSoul is able to speak for himself if he so desires to correct me if I've misapprehended his clearly conditional *if* statement.

@Trailblazer observation was accurate Daniel, it is all about good choices, as God = Good, God = Love, love is light, call it what you choose to, I acknowledge Love is of God, you may not.

It is all about Love and I personally curse no one.

(Maybe tyrants, dictators, war mongers, I do struggle with them)

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Actually what he said in full was, "It is also our curse, if not used in the knowledge and light that is of God."

In my view the implication here is that there are people who do not use the knowledge and light that is of God and they are accursed.

That is also my interpretation of his implication. Not all people believe that there is knowledge that comes from God and not all people believe that light is of God. I do not believe that not believing that is a curse. That is a very biased point of view, biased towards God is light, but we don't all share that view. I do not think that is a curse if we don't use our rational mind to come to that conclusion.

But the relevance was that he was not saying this to an atheist, he was saying it to someone who doesn't believe in his idol Baha'u'llah.

So in essence I think he was saying that the rejectors of Baha'u'llah are accursed.

I do not think it is fair to make that jump from God to Baha'u'llah because Tony was talking about God, not about Baha'u'llah.

 

[Trailblazer]

Reversing the burden of proof is a logical fallacy used to decieve ignorant people in my view.

I am not reversing the burden of proof because I have no burden of proof since I did not make a claim.
I have no more of a burden than you do.

If you can't demonstrate Baha'u'llah is the truth from God it would be unwise of me to surrender my critical thought process to accept something as true which has never been demonstrated as I see it.

Nobody can demonstrate that Baha'u'llah is the truth from God. If it could be demonstrated it would be a fact, not a belief.
We can only demonstrate it to ourselves, but if we fail to demonstrate it to ourselves then we should not believe it.

That is your opinion, and one that i don't share. In my view all one has to do to demonstrate it is not the truth from God is keep copper molten in its mine for 70 years. It is unlikely to happen given that on the one hand Baha'i have the resources to engage in such a fools errand but are evidently afraid of their God being exposed, whilst on the other hand it would only be worthwhile to divert funds from more needed endeavours such as assisting the poor if the Baha'i faith were ever to become significant enough for a Baha'i world theocracy to rear its head as i see it.

No, you cannot demonstrate that Baha'u'llah was not a Messenger of God, not anymore than I can demonstrate that He was.

All you have is a personal opinion. The copper and gold thing doesn't prove anything since there is an explanation for why He said that, you just do not understand it. That does not prove that Baha'u'llah was not a Messenger of God.

If the Baha'i Faith is the truth from God it will prevail, but you won't see it in your lifetime. I believe it will prevail, but that is because I believe what Baha'u'llah wrote.

“Warn and acquaint the people, O Servant, with the things We have sent down unto Thee, and let the fear of no one dismay Thee, and be Thou not of them that waver. The day is approaching when God will have exalted His Cause and magnified His testimony in the eyes of all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 248​

 

[danieldemol]

@Trailblazer observation was accurate Daniel, it is all about good choices, as God = Good, God = Love, love is light, call it what you choose to, I acknowledge Love is of God, you may not.

It is all about Love and I personally curse no one.

(Maybe tyrants, dictators, war mongers, I do struggle with them)

Regards Tony

Well in that case I apologise and will try to remember in the future that you make statements that have no relevance to the person you are talking to and do not apply to them.

 

[danieldemol]

The copper and gold thing doesn't prove anything since there is an explanation for why He said that, you just do not understand it.

To the contrary I understand it only too well in my view. Baha'u'llah was familiar with the ideas of the alchemists of the 19th century and approved of some (not all) of them.

Alchemy has since been refined into chemistry with some of the stuff such as the transmutation of copper into gold now pretty much discarded due to a more accurate understanding of what happens when you heat copper to its melting point.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well in that case I apologise and will try to remember in the future that you make statements that have no relevance to the person you are talking to and do not apply to them.

That is because on an open forum one is not able to control who responds to a reply to a converstaion one is having with another person Daniel.

Thus the reply is not necessarily directed only to the respondent, or even at all, the aim of the reply is to offer the truth as one understands it, to the wider audience.

I do really try to stay away from RF, I still fail far to often.

The elixer to the ills of this age have been given, humanity as a whole is not yet ready to take the elixir.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

I do really try to stay away from RF, I still fail far to often.

The elixer to the ills of this age have been given, humanity as a whole is not yet ready to take the elixir.

The "elixirs" offered by the different sects of religions and religious cults have not always worked all that well. I think it's very wise to question the validity of the one claiming to be the "divine physician."

And staying away doesn't help his cause. There's been a lot of Baha'is that have come and gone. If you believe you have the truth, it's kind of up to you to present it.

The problem for Baha'is has been how it's presented. I know it's difficult for people in any religion not to sound as if they "know" the truth and the other person is blind, lost and is wrong.

Unfortunately, by saying that the "truth", the elixir, has been given, but that we're not ready to accept it, is saying that very thing... We are wrong and unwilling to see the truth of the Baha'i Faith.

Several of us here have been to Baha'i meetings and read several Baha'i books. But the attitude of many Baha'is is as if we know nothing or have biases or even "vendettas" against the Baha'i Faith. That attitude has been successful, though... to push some of us further away.

Again, all you can do is show love and respect and tell us what you believe and why you believe it. If you can't answer some of the questions, then say so... instead of going on attack-mode and getting defensive.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And staying away doesn't help his cause. There's been a lot of Baha'is that have come and gone. If you believe you have the truth, it's kind of up to you to present it.

It is not up to anyone but one's own self to accept it.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Unfortunately, by saying that the "truth", the elixir, has been given, but that we're not ready to accept it, is saying that very thing... We are wrong and unwilling to see the truth of the Baha'i Faith.

The Word given is the elixir, the remainder unfolds with our choice to partake of it.

It would be wrong for me to say "If", that would imply that there is a chance it is not. The world does not need an offer to second guess, as it is the elixir, it has been adequately proven it is the required elixir.

Not that all need to become Baha'i to partake of the elixir, in fact very few will be at the start, the only difference is the elixir was taken earlier by some people.

The world was told that disarmament was required, that is an ingredient in the elixir.

The world was told it needs an Auxillary universal Language, that is an ingredient in the elixir.

Elimination of predudices, the implementation of a world legislative body, the setting of national boundaries, the supression of rogue nations by all the Nations, elimination of extremes of wealth and poverty, race and gender equality etc etc, all part of a very powerful elixir.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Several of us here have been to Baha'i meetings and read several Baha'i books. But the attitude of many Baha'is is as if we know nothing or have biases or even "vendettas" against the Baha'i Faith. That attitude has been successful, though... to push some of us further away.

It is our own self that is responsible for any negation CG. It is too easy to blame others for our own shortcomings.

We are all in this world, we all have the same struggles, the journey starts with the acceptance of the Oneness of humanity.

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

The world was told that disarmament was required, that is an ingredient in the elixir.

The world was told it needs an Auxillary universal Language, that is an ingredient in the elixir.

Elimination of predudices, the implementation of a world legislative body, the setting of national boundaries, the supression of rogue nations by all the Nations, elimination of extremes of wealth and poverty, race and gender equality etc etc, all part of a very powerful elixir.

Regards Tony

Getting some ingredients that work and adding to them some which don't work makes it a very mixed elixir in my view.

None religious types are able to separate out all the BS ingredients for a much more potent elixir in my view.

Some BS ingredients;

Bad fruits of the Baha'i faith;
-Anti-gay teaching
-Men and women supposedly equal but no women's representation on the Universal House of Justice.
-Opposition to the scientific method as Baha'i have to assume what the Messenger says is "fundamentally true".
-Baha'u'llah cursing those who reject him eg:

'Amongst them were those who claimed: "These are not clear verses from God, nor do they proceed from an innate and untaught nature." Thus do the unbelievers seek to remedy the sickness of their hearts, utterly heedless that they thus render themselves accursed of all who dwell in heaven and on earth.'

Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, Pages 3-54

-Baha'u'llah appears to occasionally speak out of both sides of his mouth with respect to the murder of his opposition, for example he describes the act of murder of Siyyid Muhammad-i-Isfahani as an act that caused his heart and pen to groan in one instance, and then in the Kitab-i-Aqdas he describes it as an act of God, 'God hath laid hold on him who led thee astray'

Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 249-250