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Is being gay a sin according to your religion?

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Sorry, but I couldn't care less what psychology says on the subject.
Why am I not surprised?

Habitual , cherished homosexual behavior is a sin.
No it isn't. Not even according to the bible.

No matter what you think, the Bible says what it says, and you nor anyone else can change that.
It does. But I don't think, based on your posts, that you know what that is.

I and my fellow believers have the absolute right to worship as we choose, and the absolute right of freedom of association to include, or exclude, whomever we choose from fellowship with us.
Hmmm... I thought Jesus determines who should be included/excluded, or is Jesus not Lord?
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Don't forget the very important imperative to not yoke with the unbeliever.

Let me ask you this: would you forbid marriage between a Christian and a not Christian? If not, why not?

Ciao

- viole
First off, I have no authority to forbid anyone from marrying whomever they choose. My advice, if asked, would be for a believer not to marry an unbeliever. I say this because I have seen some of the problems that this creates. The feelings of being left out by the non believer, the difficulty of church attendance and study for the believer when the non believer wants to spend time with the spouse doing other things. There is the issue of "right and wrong", the non believer may have no problem going to a party where people are tooting weed and drinking till they fall down, the believer may have a different view. This can project into many facets of life, cheat a little on taxes, tell "white lies" when it is expedient, etc. Finally the issue of children. How are they to be raised ? What are they to be taught ? Will they too go to church ? Kids can destroy a marriage of two people who are not on the same page
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
If you have a graduate theology degree, I suspect you bought it online, no matter.
You would say that.

Yes, the post Apostolic writers had important things to say as did the reformers, but they do not establish doctrine, only the Bible does that.
The bible doesn't "do" anything. It just lays there. It was apostles who established the doctrine of the Trinity, without explicit biblical information to go on.

The foundation beliefs are the same. As to your snide comment re astrology/the crusades, I consider the source, and the source is puny
"Homosexuality is a sin" isn't one of them.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Why am I not surprised?


No it isn't. Not even according to the bible.


It does. But I don't think, based on your posts, that you know what that is.


Hmmm... I thought Jesus determines who should be included/excluded, or is Jesus not Lord?
OK you believe the Bible doesn't view homosexuality as sinful, I, and the Church for 2,000 years , believe it does. You are free to believe whatever you choose. Oh, I know emphatically what the Bible says, you don't think so, fine. Christian standards are clearly enumerated by Christ and the Apostles, they are unambiguous. They have been unambiguous and held by the Church for 2,000 years, even by people who knew Christ, you believe they, the Church, and believers who hold the standards they did are wrong. So, believe that folly if you choose, you have that absolute right, just as people have the right to believe in the loch ness monster, or that the earth has been hollowed out for alien bases. I don't care what you believe, and your paltry arguments to change what I believe are of less value than the fate of a peanut shell in the Australian outback. So, just let it go
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
The bible is also unambiguous in its claim that the world was created in six days...
Actually, the claim is that the universe and everything in it was created in six days. Now, if you were there as a witness, you have standing to address the issue. Since you probably were not, you have an opinion. Spit in your right hand and you are holding the equal value of opinions
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
You would say that.


The bible doesn't "do" anything. It just lays there. It was apostles who established the doctrine of the Trinity, without explicit biblical information to go on.


"Homosexuality is a sin" isn't one of them.
No, you are wrong again, it was Christ who established the doctrine of the trinity. Homosexuality IS a sin, Read the first two chapters of Romans for context, then you will read Paul excoriating homosexual behavior, specifically, condemning women for giving up the natural use of their bodies to have sex with one another, and men burning with lust for one another shamefully having sex with one another, for which the penalty is well deserved. There are others but this is sufficient. These people were sinning in homosexual activity, sinning because before God only one man and one woman could be married, and they were doing what they were doing outside of marriage, and they were sinning by committing an act they expressly knew was wrong. 7 translations, the same. Now, the revisionist word game is not acceptable. According to the most acclaimed, and second, and third Greek to English lexicons the words mean exactly what the translations say they mean. Twist, rationalize, shilly shally, shimmy shake, prevaricate, bluster, deny, deny, deny, but it is a fact, you don't like it, tough. As a PhD in Biblical studies, you know where the other verses are and what they say. I have verified their meaning in 7 translations and in three lexicons............................................ you don't buy it ? then keep your money in your pocket, your opinion fails before the truth
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
First off, I have no authority to forbid anyone from marrying whomever they choose.

Thanks Thor.

However, Paul seems to have been pretty outspoken about it.

My advice, if asked, would be for a believer not to marry an unbeliever. I say this because I have seen some of the problems that this creates.

Could be. How is the track record of Christians marrying Christians in your country? Is everything hunky dory?

The feelings of being left out by the non believer, the difficulty of church attendance and study for the believer when the non believer wants to spend time with the spouse doing other things.

That is valid for any couple that has different hobbies. Would you suggest that people should marry only if they have the same hobbies?

There is the issue of "right and wrong", the non believer may have no problem going to a party where people are tooting weed and drinking till they fall down, the believer may have a different view.
You have a strange view of unbelievers. Would you turn yourself into a drunken loser, or into someone who enjoys their company, if you lose your faith tomorrow? if yes, then I suggest you keep believing in whatever you believe. For your own sake.

This can project into many facets of life, cheat a little on taxes, tell "white lies" when it is expedient, etc. Finally the issue of children. How are they to be raised ? What are they to be taught ? Will they too go to church ? Kids can destroy a marriage of two people who are not on the same page

Well, that did not happen with me. Kids always had full freedom to decide what they want to believe. We were a Christian/Atheist couple. And they have been exposed to both worldviews. Me and my husband had some respect for their intellectual capabilities.

On a related note: do you think that Christianity needs indoctrination at early age to survive?
You seem to indicate that the gift of faith and the descent of the Holy Ghost might be influenced by what kids learn from their parents.

Is that so?

Ciao

- viole
 
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SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Gads ! , listen (read) very carefully. Christians NEVER were admonished to stone children, Christians were NEVER admonished to commit genocide. Christianity and Judaism are two different belief systems. What can I do to make you understand that The NT superceded the old, That Christians recognize the NT as the standard. What the ancient Jews did, and their legal code does not apply to Christians. Can you see it now ? Christians follow the teaching of Christ and the Apostles, separate from Judaism.
Gads indeed.

Is the book divinely inspired, or not? Is it a book that contains moral dictates, or not?

"For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled."
Matthew 5:18
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
People may choose not to be Christians. If they choose otherwise, they must accept the moral standards associated with their choice. People outside the faith should not be held accountable for standards applied within the faith. You are right, who is included or excluded does say much about who Christians are. Sorry, but I couldn't care less what psychology says on the subject. Habitual , cherished homosexual behavior is a sin. You may not like it, but then you do not determine what I believe. No matter what you think, the Bible says what it says, and you nor anyone else can change that. I and my fellow believers have the absolute right to worship as we choose, and the absolute right of freedom of association to include, or exclude, whomever we choose from fellowship with us. You may not like that, but there are many things in life that we do not like. I am not asking you to believe as I do, nor am I attempting to sway your opinion on any subject in any direction. It is what it is and all the argument there is possible will not change Christian morality. The only caveat is if a human gene is identified that without question causes homosexuality in every case where it is present, I will reconsider the issue
Then stick to calling it a sin instead of a disorder.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
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What's funny about something so obvious?
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
First off, I have no authority to forbid anyone from marrying whomever they choose. My advice, if asked, would be for a believer not to marry an unbeliever. I say this because I have seen some of the problems that this creates. The feelings of being left out by the non believer, the difficulty of church attendance and study for the believer when the non believer wants to spend time with the spouse doing other things. There is the issue of "right and wrong", the non believer may have no problem going to a party where people are tooting weed and drinking till they fall down, the believer may have a different view. This can project into many facets of life, cheat a little on taxes, tell "white lies" when it is expedient, etc. Finally the issue of children. How are they to be raised ? What are they to be taught ? Will they too go to church ? Kids can destroy a marriage of two people who are not on the same page
Are you implying that nonbelievers are more likely to "cheat a little on taxes" or tell "white lies?"
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Are you implying that nonbelievers are more likely to "cheat a little on taxes" or tell "white lies?"
What a big ol' chip you have on your shoulder, LOL ! I am not implying anything, I am saying that the behavior of non believers might be in conflict with those of a believer
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Gads indeed.

Is the book divinely inspired, or not? Is it a book that contains moral dictates, or not?

"For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled."
Matthew 5:18
Uh, the law was fulfilled, at the cross. The old law, first covenant has passed away, Christians are under the covenant of Grace, Yes, the book is divinely inspired
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
What a big ol' chip you have on your shoulder, LOL ! I am not implying anything, I am saying that the behavior of non believers might be in conflict with those of a believer
That's the way it reads to me. You start off talking about how nonbelievers might not have a problem going to parties where people smoke weed and drink which could conflict with the believer's dislike of such things. Then you go on about cheating on taxes and lying. So excuse me for taking such a leap in logic there.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
What's funny about something so obvious?
I find the homosexual revisionism of the bible so egregiously contrived and incredulous...it makes those activists who push it look ridiculous. Having said that, I reiterate...they should be respected as human beings as we all like to be respected...
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Uh, the law was fulfilled, at the cross. The old law, first covenant has passed away, Christians are under the covenant of Grace, Yes, the book is divinely inspired
Whatever you have to tell yourself, I guess.

So it's divinely inspired. Which means that it is a book where god is dictating his rules to us in text? So it contains moral dictates, or not?
 
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