Is being gay a sin according to your religion?

[SkepticThinker]

I find the homosexual revisionism of the bible so egregiously contrived and incredulous...it makes those activists who push it look ridiculous. Having said that, I reiterate...they should be respected as human beings as we all like to be respected...

Sojourner was talking about reading ancient texts in the culture, time and context in which they were written. That's a pretty noncontroversial statement, isn't it?

 

[shmogie]

Thanks Thor.

However, Paul seems to have been pretty outspoken about it.



Could be. How is the track record of Christians marrying Christians in your country? Is everything hunky dory?



That is valid for any couple that has different hobbies. Would you suggest that people should marry only if they have the same hobbies?


You have a strange view of unbelievers. Would you turn yourself into a drunken loser, or into someone who enjoys their company, if you lose your faith tomorrow? if yes, then I suggest you keep believing in whatever you believe. For your own sake.



Well, that did not happen with me. Kids always had full freedom to decide what they want to believe. We were a Christian/Atheist couple. And they have been exposed to both worldviews. Me and my husband had some respect for their intellectual capabilities.

On a related note: do you think that Christianity needs indoctrination at early age to survive?
You seem to indicate that the gift of faith and the descent of the Holy Ghost might be influenced by what kids learn from their parents.

Is that so?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Sojourner was talking about reading ancient texts in the culture, time and context in which they were written. That's a pretty noncontroversial statement, isn't it?

Sure...If there weren't an underlying transparent agenda to subvert the actual meaning...and ineptly at that...

 

[shmogie]

Thanks Thor.

However, Paul seems to have been pretty outspoken about it.



Could be. How is the track record of Christians marrying Christians in your country? Is everything hunky dory?



That is valid for any couple that has different hobbies. Would you suggest that people should marry only if they have the same hobbies?


You have a strange view of unbelievers. Would you turn yourself into a drunken loser, or into someone who enjoys their company, if you lose your faith tomorrow? if yes, then I suggest you keep believing in whatever you believe. For your own sake.



Well, that did not happen with me. Kids always had full freedom to decide what they want to believe. We were a Christian/Atheist couple. And they have been exposed to both worldviews. Me and my husband had some respect for their intellectual capabilities.

On a related note: do you think that Christianity needs indoctrination at early age to survive?
You seem to indicate that the gift of faith and the descent of the Holy Ghost might be influenced by what kids learn from their parents.

Is that so?

Ciao

- viole

It would seem as though any hypothetical example I give to differentiate between behaviors of a believer and not believer, are instantly taken as an attack on non believers. So, to placate those with this hypersensitivity, lets say there could be a difference between the two, and leave it there. Everybody's ruffled feathers back in place now ? Indoctrination is the absolute wrong term, wrong method. It is perfectly acceptable and right to share Biblical concepts with Children. When they reach an age to determine for themselves what they believe, that is their right. My eldest daughter wanted to be baptized at 10, I didn't tell her no, but I did explain to her that she needed to fully understand what she was doing and why. She chose not to. I think people who understand the Spirit are more open to it, but the Spirit can and does influence people with no Christian background

 

[Shadow Wolf]

People may choose not to be Christians. If they choose otherwise, they must accept the moral standards associated with their choice. People outside the faith should not be held accountable for standards applied within the faith. You are right, who is included or excluded does say much about who Christians are. Sorry, but I couldn't care less what psychology says on the subject. Habitual , cherished homosexual behavior is a sin. You may not like it, but then you do not determine what I believe. No matter what you think, the Bible says what it says, and you nor anyone else can change that. I and my fellow believers have the absolute right to worship as we choose, and the absolute right of freedom of association to include, or exclude, whomever we choose from fellowship with us. You may not like that, but there are many things in life that we do not like. I am not asking you to believe as I do, nor am I attempting to sway your opinion on any subject in any direction. It is what it is and all the argument there is possible will not change Christian morality. The only caveat is if a human gene is identified that without question causes homosexuality in every case where it is present, I will reconsider the issue

It's ok. Your views are dying out anyways. The sooner the better, but it's also enjoyable, very much so, watching and knowing such views will not be around much longer. By the end of this century, those who hold up the Bible to justify their homophobic ways will be viewed on the same level racist/racial superiority groups who hold up the Bible to justify their ways.

 

[viole]

It would seem as though any hypothetical example I give to differentiate between behaviors of a believer and not believer, are instantly taken as an attack on non believers. So, to placate those with this hypersensitivity, lets say there could be a difference between the two, and leave it there. Everybody's ruffled feathers back in place now ? Indoctrination is the absolute wrong term, wrong method. It is perfectly acceptable and right to share Biblical concepts with Children. When they reach an age to determine for themselves what they believe, that is their right. My eldest daughter wanted to be baptized at 10, I didn't tell her no, but I did explain to her that she needed to fully understand what she was doing and why. She chose not to. I think people who understand the Spirit are more open to it, but the Spirit can and does influence people with no Christian background

My personal recommendation is not to expose your kids too much to the Bible, if you wish them to become Christians.

By the way: if the Spirit can and does influence people with no Christian background, why do you send missionaries all over the world?

Ciao

- viole

 

[shmogie]

I find the homosexual revisionism of the bible so egregiously contrived and incredulous...it makes those activists who push it look ridiculous. Having said that, I reiterate...they should be respected as human beings as we all like to be respected...

The philosophy is that of the big lie, tell it over, and over, and over again, and no matter how ridiculous, some will believe it. All people are to be treated with kindness and respect............................ Christians who do not, are not practicing what they preach. I owe a debt of gratitude to an older cousin who is a homosexual. My mother was convinced that this occurred because my aunt made him do womanly things when he was young. So I was the envy of my buddies because I never had to make a bed, wash dishes, sweep, etc., etc.

 

[viole]

So I was the envy of my buddies because I never had to make a bed, wash dishes, sweep, etc., etc.

How is that related to your cousin being gay?

Ciao

- viole

 

[shmogie]

It's ok. Your views are dying out anyways. The sooner the better, but it's also enjoyable, very much so, watching and knowing such views will not be around much longer. By the end of this century, those who hold up the Bible to justify their homophobic ways will be viewed on the same level racist/racial superiority groups who hold up the Bible to justify their ways.

The rumor of the demise of Christian morality is vastly inflated, your wishes do not make it so. Homophobic, hmmmmmm I don't have an irrational fear of homosexuals, I don't fear them at all. Labels and labels, and more labels. Let me guess, you are a political progressive, they are the masters of labels, anyone with whom you disagree must have a label, the more perjorative, the better. Your ilk cannot stand anyone thinking differently from you, we are all free to believe as we choose,, as long as we agree with you. After all , you are "right" and I am "wrong", how to prove it, just ask you. Bullcrap

 

[shmogie]

How is that related to your cousin being gay?

Ciao

- viole

Please re read the post, I think it is obvious

 

[viole]

Please re read the post, I think it is obvious

Do you think that washing dishes and sweeping the floor are womanly things?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Ben Dhyan]

The philosophy is that of the big lie, tell it over, and over, and over again, and no matter how ridiculous, some will believe it. All people are to be treated with kindness and respect............................ Christians who do not, are not practicing what they preach. I owe a debt of gratitude to an older cousin who is a homosexual. My mother was convinced that this occurred because my aunt made him do womanly things when he was young. So I was the envy of my buddies because I never had to make a bed, wash dishes, sweep, etc., etc.

I agree... Yes, I suspect that the mother figure can be a factor in these matters....I am an oldie...mothers stayed at home...we boys had work to do around the home, but doing mom's work was not one of them....no bed making, sweeping, cleaning, dusting, cooking, etc...

 

[SkepticThinker]

The rumor of the demise of Christian morality is vastly inflated, your wishes do not make it so. Homophobic, hmmmmmm I don't have an irrational fear of homosexuals, I don't fear them at all. Labels and labels, and more labels. Let me guess, you are a political progressive, they are the masters of labels, anyone with whom you disagree must have a label, the more perjorative, the better. Your ilk cannot stand anyone thinking differently from you, we are all free to believe as we choose,, as long as we agree with you. After all , you are "right" and I am "wrong", how to prove it, just ask you. Bullcrap

What's on its way out is the judgmental and discriminatory view towards people of the LBGT community.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Sure...If there weren't an underlying transparent agenda to subvert the actual meaning...and ineptly at that...

Okay. I guess.
I think different Christians are going to interpret the bible in different ways. Apparently it's not as clear-cut as you think it is, given all the different views on it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The rumor of the demise of Christian morality is vastly inflated, your wishes do not make it so.

Christianity isn't dying out. I said, specifically, that your views are dying out. Christianity survived segregation, women's suffrage, interracial marriages, and many other things that some of its adherents were behind. The religion carried on, but those views did not.

Homophobic, hmmmmmm I don't have an irrational fear of homosexuals, I don't fear them at all. Labels and labels, and more labels.

A rose by any other name, and all that. It doesn't matter what term we use, it still applies. But, the term "homophobia" includes more than irrational fears, and it does indeed include prejudice and bigotry towards homosexuals.

Let me guess, you are a political progressive,

Nope.

Yes, I suspect that the mother figure can be a factor in these matters

There is nothing about the mother figure, or father figure, that plays a factor. Such "pseudo-Freudian pseudo-psychology" has never been proven, but it has been disproven.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Okay. I guess.
I think different Christians are going to interpret the bible in different ways. Apparently it's not as clear-cut as you think it is, given all the different views on it.

The bible is a translated work....that there are many different versions involving different translations, all being reasonably similar, means that what we read in the bible is about as good as it gets. As to what readers understand from reading the bible is another matter....but on the matter of the passages referring to homosexuality, the message is unambiguous for people who understand English..

 

[shmogie]

Christianity isn't dying out. I said, specifically, that your views are dying out. Christianity survived segregation, women's suffrage, interracial marriages, and many other things that some of its adherents were behind. The religion carried on, but those views did not.

A rose by any other name, and all that. It doesn't matter what term we use, it still applies. But, the term "homophobia" includes more than irrational fears, and it does indeed include prejudice and bigotry towards homosexuals.

Nope.

There is nothing about the mother figure, or father figure, that plays a factor. Such "pseudo-Freudian pseudo-psychology" has never been proven, but it has been disproven.

So, you are saying that I practice bigotry and prejudice toward homosexuals. Exactly how did you come to that conclusion ? Have you observed my interaction with them ?
how exactly does that work ? I believe, and know that the Bible says homosexuality in believers is a sin. I believe and the Bible says, that I should not associate with homosexuals. That doesn't mean dealing with them however required in public and civil interactions, it means they are not to be my best friends. So, please tell me, how do you extrapolate bigotry and prejudice from the above ? I submit that you practice "prejudice"yourself. Do you go to skid row and hang out with the wino's, if not, why not ? Do you go to the worst part of town and pal around with the gangbangers ? Why not ? Do you harbor a prejudice against these people ? If you come into contact with them, do you practice bigotry against them ? if not, why do you assume I do with homosexuals ? Your projections are fallacious

 

[Ingledsva]

Y
What utter pap. I suggest your exegesis is rubbish. " any act of love is sinless, for love is not sin " Please give me the exact verses from the NT where this is said. A necrophiliac may love his dead wife, so having sex with her cannot be sin. I just read of a muslim male who married an eight year old girl, she died from injuries on her "wedding night", no doubt he loved her, so he committed no sin. What kind of "love" are you talking about ? in the ancient Greek used to write the NT there are at least four kinds of love. I suggest you look at the Torah, homosexuality was punishable by death. That certainly was written by the ancients. You are right in one thing, the Greek then Roman culture didn't much care about homosexuality, but they leave much to be desired when looking at morality from a Christian perspective, and that is one reason why the Church from the very beginning made clear this was aberrant, sinful behavior. The principle was based upon very sound exegesis of the texts, and by those who knew Christ. This is a blatant attempt to corrupt Christianity to fit a corrupt moral narrative............................. Most Christians aren't buying it, because they know that this attempt was predicted, and is unfolding precisely as predicted. Live as you choose, have sex with your Doberman if you love him ( in your own home as unenlightened society still finds this repugnant ), I personally couldnt care less

Use Red Herrings much?

Necrophilia and pedophilia have nothing to do with homosexuality, or homosexuality laws actually being in the Bible or not. Sex with animals that can't give informed consent has nothing to do with homosexuality!

As we have said over and over - if you don't think we are correct - THEN PROVE IT!!!!! Stop throwing up TRANSLATIONS - without actual rebuttal - and proof for your side of the argument!

Stop crap that has nothing to do with the debate.

Sacred Sex- Idolatry - is what was punishable by death.

Beyond this, necrophilia is recognized world wide as a crime. Pedophilia is recognized as a crime by most of the world. As long as backward areas allow children to be "raped" (for that is what it is) children will die.

You should know that the people of your Bible allowed marriage by SEX with a child three years and one day old!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How many do you think died????

It is most likely that none of the NT writers knew Jesus.

Sound exegesis? How about years of homophobia - showing up in the translations?

*

 

[Ingledsva]

Since reading your post (#850), I see somewhat what you're talking about. Although, I have two issues:

#1) Were the verses used by some Christians in justifying my ancestors' enslavement decontextualized or not? Are they talking about Black people and White people? What relevance do the ACTUAL VERSES THEMSELVES, what they ACTUALLY SAY, not what they were misinterpreted to say, have to the actual happenings of Slave Trade? You still have not answered this question, instead you've very much danced around it.

#2) When did I discuss ANY of the issues relating to homosexuality? That comment, to which you have made reference, is not referring to you at all.

Decontextualized means considered in isolation from its context.

1. Obviously that is not the case. Christianity is an Abrahamic religion. They read and followed the Bible. And they used texts that it actually has in it allowing slavery. And again this does not just sit by itself. We have European Christian History - also claiming right to slavery from the Bible.

2. I was showing other examples where they were NOT decontextualized - as you said - "What you've shown me, thus far, is that you can quote particular Bible passages while pulling them out of context (specifically, Old Testament passages), and utilize them in what I perceive to be a critique of the Christian religion or any aspects thereof."

*

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Exactly how did you come to that conclusion ? Have you observed my interaction with them ?

It's you posts that say things such as "you don't like people who don't agree with you" or "I don't care what psychologists say" and saying "I shouldn't associate with them (which is about as unChrist-like as it gets)." You don't want to deal with them "however is required" and they are not to be your "best friend." That screams prejudice, and it's literally no different than when a Klansman says they won't associate with blacks or Jews because of what the Bible says.

Do you go to skid row and hang out with the wino's, if not, why not ? Do you go to the worst part of town and pal around with the gangbangers ?

Actually, I have hung out with and associated with such people. I do visit people in the "worst part of town," I've been friends with drug dealers, even a convicted child molester I have treated with decency and respect. Unless you've harmed me, or a friend, I have no reason to hate you, shun you, or treat you with anything less than what any other human being is entitled to. Poor, wealth, well, ill, intelligent, foolish, the only people I do not tolerate are bullies, or those who tolerate bullying. Then I'll bite your head off.