Is being gay a sin according to your religion?

[dgirl1986]

If animals who engage in same sex behaviour cannot choose to act that way (as I understand they do not have the abililty to choose) then why is it assumed by some folk that lgbtq folk choose?

 

[Gnostic Seeker]

If animals who engage in same sex behaviour cannot choose to act that way (as I understand they do not have the abililty to choose) then why is it assumed by some folk that lgbtq folk choose?

Humans have a higher degree of choice on things than other animals, but I think in this case the most that could be argued is that gay people could choose not to act on their attraction. Now I personally don't see why or who it effects.

 

[dgirl1986]

Humans have a higher degree of choice on things than other animals, but I think in this case the most that could be argued is that gay people could choose not to act on their attraction. Now I personally don't see why or who it effects.

Unfortunately some cannot make the distinction between choosing to be who you are and choosing who you are.

 

[Ingledsva]

Humans have a higher degree of choice on things than other animals, but I think in this case the most that could be argued is that gay people could choose not to act on their attraction. Now I personally don't see why or who it effects.

However, we are animals, - and animals with lower cognitive function, not "choosing, to be," proves that people, whom are also animals, are BORN homosexual.


This proves that religious sanctions against such, - supposedly from some God, - are bogus, and illogical.


In other words, why would a God create/or allow (in genetics,) homosexuality in animals, and then say homosexuality is wrong, and a death sentence? Totally Illogical!



*

 

[Gnostic Seeker]

However, we are animals, - and animals with lower cognitive function, not "choosing, to be," proves that people, whom are also animals, are BORN homosexual.


This proves that religious sanctions against such, - supposedly from some God, - are bogus, and illogical.


In other words, why would a God create/or allow (in genetics,) homosexuality in animals, and then say homosexuality is wrong, and a death sentence? Totally Illogical!



*

I agree 100%. I don't believe there is anything wrong with homosexuality.

 

[AlphaAlex115]

I agree 100%. I don't believe there is anything wrong with homosexuality.

Why not? The bible says otherwise adn youre a christian right?

 

[Sees]

Why not? The bible says otherwise adn youre a christian right?

Has thou not read thine own thread?

 

[Norman]

Well at this point I'd say it boils down to opinion as I find the traditional interpretation more logical and I think it provides a more entertaining story. Lawl

I think we can both agree that the real moral monster of the story is our dear protagonist Lot. Offering his scared daughters to a crazed mob. But hey, he was righteous....:no:

Sorry to bud into your conversation, I just wanted to comment on this topic.
In regards to Genesis 19:4–12. I have read this biblical account of Lot offering His
daughters to the wicked Sodomites for years. It seems to me that it keeps being debated over and over. Many scholars have tried to justify Lot’s shocking offer of his daughters as substitutes for the men on the basis of the strict laws of hospitality and protection that prevailed in the ancient Middle East. It seems that when Lot refused to allow the men of Sodom to satisfy their evil and depraved desires, they became angry and said, “We will have the men, and thy daughters also.
In my opinion in the Genesis account it is clear that the people of these two cities had become extremely immoral, engaging in homosexuality and other abuses. But the prophet Ezekiel gave greater insight when he said, “Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.” (Ezekiel 16:49–50.) James said that pure religion was to “visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep [oneself] unspotted from the world” (James 1:27). Sodom and Gomorrah not only had partaken of the filthiness of sexual immorality but had rejected their fellow men in need.

I personally give a lot of attention to Jude. Jude 1: 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. 8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. Evidently Jude read and knew of this story and summarized the events.

Genesis 19:4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: 5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. 6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, 7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. 8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof. 9 And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door. 10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door. 11 And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door. 12 And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:
The high-light in red are key comments I feel is important to isolate and view for consideration.

It seems to me in the final analysis that the fate of the city was regarded as a warning against sensual wickedness.

 

[Ingledsva]

Sorry to bud into your conversation, I just wanted to comment on this topic.
In regards to Genesis 19:4–12. I have read this biblical account of Lot offering His
daughters to the wicked Sodomites for years. It seems to me that it keeps being debated over and over. Many scholars have tried to justify Lot’s shocking offer of his daughters as substitutes for the men on the basis of the strict laws of hospitality and protection that prevailed in the ancient Middle East. It seems that when Lot refused to allow the men of Sodom to satisfy their evil and depraved desires, they became angry and said, “We will have the men, and thy daughters also.
In my opinion in the Genesis account it is clear that the people of these two cities had become extremely immoral, engaging in homosexuality and other abuses. But the prophet Ezekiel gave greater insight when he said, “Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.” (Ezekiel 16:49–50.) James said that pure religion was to “visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep [oneself] unspotted from the world” (James 1:27). Sodom and Gomorrah not only had partaken of the filthiness of sexual immorality but had rejected their fellow men in need.

I personally give a lot of attention to Jude. Jude 1: 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. 8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. Evidently Jude read and knew of this story and summarized the events.

Genesis 19:4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: 5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. 6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, 7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. 8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof. 9 And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door. 10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door. 11 And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door. 12 And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:
The high-light in red are key comments I feel is important to isolate and view for consideration.

It seems to me in the final analysis that the fate of the city was regarded as a warning against sensual wickedness.

YHVH uses the same word translated here as "KNOW THEM/SEX" - when he says he has heard the groaning of the people concerning Sodom and Gomorrah - and is going down to - "same word" them.

Obviously he was not going down to have gay sex with them. And that lets us know the word here is meant to be one of it's other meanings. In this case - to ascertain, judge, and punish (if needed.)

The people, learning that the angels are there to "ascertain and punish," rush the house and call for the angels to be sent out, so they can do what the angels came to do to them - judge and punish, - FIRST!


STRANGE FLESH - in the Bible, is almost always found to be, - led astray by "foreign women" (and thus their Gods,) or it is used for Sacred Prostitutes.


*

 

[Muffled]

So gays are in contrast with the natural order because they cannot reproduce, but infertile couples are not even though they can't either?

I believe infertile couples are attempting to have children and are unable but at least they are doing what it takes to have children. That is the natural order.

 

[viole]

I believe infertile couples are attempting to have children and are unable but at least they are doing what it takes to have children. That is the natural order.

What about people who use birth control? It is obvious that they are not trying to have babies.

So, should we forbid marriages of heterosexual couples that intend to use birth control during all their reproductive life? Or invalidate their marriage if they insist doing it?

If not, why not?

Ciao

- viole

 

[dgirl1986]

I believe infertile couples are attempting to have children and are unable but at least they are doing what it takes to have children. That is the natural order.

So are we.

 

[Glaurung]

What about people who use birth control? It is obvious that they are not trying to have babies.

Traditionally, Christians did object to birth control as a selfish distortion of the sexual act. However, to my knowledge, only the Catholic Church really still holds on to this. And even then, it's mostly ignored.

 

[sojourner]

Why not? The bible says otherwise adn youre a christian right?

The bible doesn't speak about homosexuality -- only homosexual acts.

 

[sojourner]

Sorry to bud into your conversation, I just wanted to comment on this topic.
In regards to Genesis 19:4–12. I have read this biblical account of Lot offering His
daughters to the wicked Sodomites for years. It seems to me that it keeps being debated over and over. Many scholars have tried to justify Lot’s shocking offer of his daughters as substitutes for the men on the basis of the strict laws of hospitality and protection that prevailed in the ancient Middle East. It seems that when Lot refused to allow the men of Sodom to satisfy their evil and depraved desires, they became angry and said, “We will have the men, and thy daughters also.
In my opinion in the Genesis account it is clear that the people of these two cities had become extremely immoral, engaging in homosexuality and other abuses. But the prophet Ezekiel gave greater insight when he said, “Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.” (Ezekiel 16:49–50.) James said that pure religion was to “visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep [oneself] unspotted from the world” (James 1:27). Sodom and Gomorrah not only had partaken of the filthiness of sexual immorality but had rejected their fellow men in need.

I personally give a lot of attention to Jude. Jude 1: 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. 8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. Evidently Jude read and knew of this story and summarized the events.

Genesis 19:4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: 5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. 6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, 7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. 8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof. 9 And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door. 10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door. 11 And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door. 12 And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:
The high-light in red are key comments I feel is important to isolate and view for consideration.

It seems to me in the final analysis that the fate of the city was regarded as a warning against sensual wickedness.

BZZZZZZZZZZZT!!! Thanks for playing.

The sin of Sodom was lack of hospitality. All other sins in Sodom were due to this lack of hospitality.

 

[sojourner]

I believe infertile couples are attempting to have children and are unable but at least they are doing what it takes to have children. That is the natural order.

No. They're not "doing what it takes to have children." If they were "doing what it takes to have children, they'd have children. But they're not doing that. they're screwing. Period.

 

[Norman]

YHVH uses the same word translated here as "KNOW THEM/SEX" - when he says he has heard the groaning of the people concerning Sodom and Gomorrah - and is going down to - "same word" them.

Obviously he was not going down to have gay sex with them. And that lets us know the word here is meant to be one of it's other meanings. In this case - to ascertain, judge, and punish (if needed.)

The people, learning that the angels are there to "ascertain and punish," rush the house and call for the angels to be sent out, so they can do what the angels came to do to them - judge and punish, - FIRST!

Ingledsva, what are you quoting from?

STRANGE FLESH - in the Bible, is almost always found to be, - led astray by "foreign women" (and thus their Gods,) or it is used for Sacred Prostitutes.

In regards to having sex with angels. The English word “strange” (KJV, NKJV, ASV, NASB) creates a different meaning in the mind of the English reader than what is intended by the Greek word heteros. The term simply means “other, another” (Beyer, 1964, 2:702-704). Moulton and Milligan note “how readily heteros from meaning ‘the other class (of two)’ came to imply ‘different’ in quality or kind” (1930, p. 257; cf. Arndt and Gingrich, 1957, p. 315).

Thayer even defined the word as “one not of the same nature, form, class, kind,” giving Jude 7 as an instance of this use (1977, p. 254). However, he did not intend by this definition to imply that the difference extended to angelic flesh, as is evident from his treatment of the verse in his section dealing with sarx (flesh): “to follow after the flesh, is used of those who are on the search for persons with whom they can gratify their lust, Jude 7” (p. 570; cf. p. 449). In their handling of either “strange” or “flesh,” none of these lexicographers offers any support for the connotation of nonhuman or extraterrestrial, i.e., angelic.

It so happens that eminent Greek scholar A.T. Robertson disputes even the idea that the meaning of heteros extends to the notion of “different.” In his massive and monumental A Grammar of the Greek New Testament, Robertson made the following comment on this term: The sense of “different” grows naturally out of the notion
of duality. The two things happen just to be different…. The word itself does not mean “different,” but merely “one other,” a second of two. It does not necessarily involve “the secondary idea of difference of kind” (Thayer). That is only true where the context demands it (1934, p. 748, emp. added). So the notion of a different nature, form, or kind does not inhere in the word itself. Only contextual indicators can indicate, quite coincidentally, that the “other” being referred to also is different in some additional quality.

Many English translations of Jude 7 more accurately reflect the meaning of heteros by avoiding the use of the term “strange.” For example, the RSV renders the phrase in question as “indulged in unnatural lust.” The NIV and TEV read: “sexual immorality and perversion.” Moffatt’s translation reads: “vice and sensual perversity.” Goodspeed, Beck, Weymouth, and the Twentieth Century New Testament all have “unnatural vice.” The Simplified New Testament has “homosexuality.” The Jerusalem Bible reads: “The fornication of Sodom and Gomorrah and the other nearby towns was equally unnatural.” Even the Living Bible Paraphrased suitably pinpoints the import of the original in the words, “And don’t forget the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and their neighboring towns, all full of lust of every kind, including lust of men for other men.”

Considering the meaning of “strange” in its only occurrences (in English) in the KJV (11 times), NKJV (7 times), ASV (10 times), RSV (6 times), and NIV (5 times), one finds that it never is used to refer to angels, but instead refers to: “strange things” (Luke 5:26—i.e., a miracle); “strange land” (Acts 7:6—i.e., Egypt); “strange gods” (Acts 17:18); “strange things” (Acts 17:20—i.e., ideas); “strange cities” (Acts 26:11—i.e., Gentile or outside Palestine); “strange tongues” (1 Corinthians 14:21—i.e., foreign languages); “strange country” (Hebrews 11:9—i.e., Canaan); “strange doctrines” (Hebrews 13:9); “think it strange” (1 Peter 4:4—i.e., odd); “some strange thing” (1 Peter 4:12—i.e., unusual); and “strange flesh” (Jude 7—i.e., male with male). All the other occurrences of the underlying Greek term in the New Testament further undergird the nonapplication of the term to “angelic flesh” (Moulton, et al., 1978, pp. 392-393).

Most commentators and language scholars recognize this feature of Jude’s remark, as evinced by their treatment of Jude 7. For example, the New Analytical Greek Lexicon defines heteros in Jude 7 as “illicit” (Perschbacher, 1990, p. 177). Williams identified “strange flesh” as “unnatural vice” (1960, p. 1023). Barclay wrote: “What the men of Sodom were bent on was unnatural sexual intercourse, homosexual intercourse, with Lot’s two visitors. They were bent on sodomy, the word in which their sin is dreadfully commemorated” (1958, p. 218). Alford correctly translated the Greek as “other flesh,” and defined the phrase as “[other] than that appointed by God for the fulfillment of natural desire” (1875, 4:533). Jamieson, et al., defined “going after strange flesh” as “departing from the course of nature, and going after that which is unnatural” (n.d., p. 544). Schneider said the expression “denotes licentious living” (1964, 2:676; cf. Hauck, 1967, 4:646; Seesemann, 1967, 5:292). Macknight said: “They committed the unnatural crime which hath taken its name from them” (n.d., p. 693). Mayor explained, “the forbidden flesh (literally ‘other than that appointed by God’) refers…in the case of Sodom to the departure from the natural use” (n.d., 5:260). Barnes stated: “the word strange, or other, refers to that which is contrary to nature” (1978, p. 392, italics in orig.), and Salmond adds, “a departure from the laws of nature in the impurities practiced” (1958, p. 7).

In the second place, beyond the technical meanings and definitions of the words in Jude 7, contextual indicators also exclude the interpretation that the sin of the men of Sodom was not homosexuality but their desire for angelic flesh. Look again at the wording of the verse: “as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these….” To what cities does Jude refer? The Bible actually indicates that Sodom and Gomorrah were only two out of five wicked cities situated on the plain, the other three being Zoar, Admah, and Zeboim (Deuteronomy 29:23; Hosea 11:8). Zoar was actually spared destruction as a result of Lot’s plea for a place to which he might flee (Genesis 19:18-22).

Do the advocates of homosexuality wish to hold the position that the populations of the four cities that were destroyed were all guilty of desiring sexual relations with angels? Perhaps the latest sexual fad that swept over all the cities in the vicinity was “angel sex”? And are we to believe that the great warning down through the ages regarding the infamous behavior of the inhabitants of Sodom—a warning that is repeated over and over again down through the ages to people in many places and periods of history (Deuteronomy 29:23; 32:32; Isaiah 1:9; 3:9; 13:19; Jeremiah 23:14; 49:18; 50:40; Lamentations 4:6; Ezekiel 16:46,49,53,55; Amos 4:11; Zephaniah 2:9; Matthew 10:15; 11:24; Luke 10:12; 17:29; Romans 9:29; 2 Peter 2:6; Revelation 11:8)—is: “Do not have sex with angels!”? How many times have you been tempted to violate that warning? The opportunity presents itself on a regular basis, right? The country is full of “single angel” bars! No, what Barclay labeled as “the glare of Sodom and Gomorrah,” which is “flung down the whole length of Scripture history” (p. 218), is not angel sex! It is same-sex relations—men with men. And, unbelievably, now the very warning that has been given down through the ages needs to be issued to America!




*

 

[Gnostic Seeker]

Why not? The bible says otherwise adn youre a christian right?

I haven't been a Christian for several years.

 

[Norman]

Source for post # 667

Source:
Alford, Henry (1875), Greek Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker), 1980 reprint).
Arndt, William and F.W. Gingrich (1957), A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago, IL: University of Chicago Press).
Barclay, William (1958), The Letters of John and Jude (Philadelphia, PA: Westminster).
Barnes, Albert (1978 reprint), Notes on the New Testament: James, Peter, John, and Jude (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker).
Beyer, Hermann (1964), “miaino,” Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, ed. Gerhard Kittel (Grand Rapids, MI:Eerdmans, 1981 reprint).
Hauck, F. (1967), “heteros,” Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, ed. Gerhard Kittel (Grand Rapids, MI:Eerdmans, 1982 reprint).
Jamieson, Robert, A.R. Fausset, and David Brown (no date), A Commentary on the Old and New Testaments (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan).
Lenski, R.C.H. (1966), The Interpretation of the Epistles of St. Peter, St. John, and St. Jude (Minneapolis, MN: Augsburg).
Macknight, James (no date), Apostolical Epistles (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker).
Mayor, J.B. (no date), The Expositor’s Greek Testament: Jude, ed. W. Robertson Nicoll (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans).
Moulton, James and George Milligan (1930), Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament Illustrated from the Papyri and Other Non-literary Sources (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1982 reprint).
Moulton, W.F., A.S. Geden, and H.K. Moulton (1978), A Concordance to the Greek Testament (Edinburgh: T.&T. Clark), fifth edition.
Perschbacher, Wesley ed. (1990), The New Analytical Greek Lexicon (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson).
Robertson, A.T. (1934), A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press).
Salmond, S.D.F. (1958 reprint), The Pulpit Commentary—Jude, ed. H.D.M. Spence and J.S. Exell (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans).

 

[Gnostic Seeker]

I believe infertile couples are attempting to have children and are unable but at least they are doing what it takes to have children. That is the natural order.

What natural order? Nature doesn't have an order when it comes to sexuality. There is homosexuality, animals born with both organs, etc. in nature. Or are you privy to some definition of natural I'm not?