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Is belief a choice?

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
The free will problem is a problem of volition. Though some may argue that organisms don't have free will, we still maintain that we have volition. So with belief I'm trying to focus on the aspects that come from choice rather than the things that come where we have no control over outcomes.

Obsessions and addictions are interesting in that they start to hinder our own volition. So we still hold people accountable for what they do even if they say they had no choice.

For some to say that we have no choice in who we like or dislike sounds a bit extreme, there are certainly things we like/dislike about people, just as much as there are things we are willing to ignore.
We can play a role in willfully steering the changes/evolution of our natures; we can work to become more optimistic or we can work to become more pessimistic, which will affect our future likes/dislikes. So if something seems to be out of your reach, you can always work to change yourself so that it comes within your reach. (Although this would be dependent upon your belief or disbelief on your ability to adapt.) In this respect, disbelief (negative belief) would be more powerful in voiding volition than belief would be in reinforcing volition, in that disbelief closes off possibilities. Disbelief in regards to will also requires less work than belief in regards to will, so does this mean that it is much easier to be a pessimist than an optimist?
 

Warren Clark

Informer
And that response alone is (IMO) fairly good evidence that you are a rational and intelligent individual (of course, whether or not my opinion has any validity rests in part on my own "idiocy" factor).


There is an oft quoted dictum that "minds are like parachutes: they only function when open." And while this is true to a certain extent, there is the issue of having so open a mind that one's brains fall out,

More importantly, there is the issue of equating stupidity with the adoption of a particular religious view (even with the caveat "stuck in one religion or sect", as it is rather hard to determine whether another is "stuck"). Until rather recently (and thanks in part to this forum), I didn't realize my own bias not so much against those who belong to some religion as for those who do not. I never believed that being religious entailed stupidity, as apart from anything else, my father was brought up in both a highly intellectual environment and one without any religious or spiritual views, yet he converted to Catholicism before I was born (and I have a hard time believing this is the result of stupidity for a number of reasons, including the fact that he receieved his undergrad degree in physics from Dartmouth and his law degree from Cornell, which I would think requires at least an average amount of intelligence). Yet after abandoning the faith in which I was raised, I seem to have somehow unconsciously tended to believe that agnostics and atheists are more rational and open-minded, at least when it comes to science.

I realized this bias here thanks to a few discussions with those who had no religious affiliation yet clung dogmatically to a particular stance on some philosophical and/or scientific issue anyway.

Having already studied the effect of worldview (religious or not) and how much it can hinder one's ability to evaluate a given topic with minimal bias (I even had a paper published on the subject), it was something of a revelation to realize that although I had never equated religious views with close-mindedness nor with stupidity, I had somehow accorded those without such views with an unwarranted rationality.

We are all to some extent products of our environment, and we all have a framework through which we interpret everything. At best we can aspire to recognize as much of our own biases as possible, and attempt to question whatever assumptions or beliefs we hold (if only to reaffirm their validity).


Indoctrination is a given, unless one is raised without human interaction (i.e., feral children). And religion is hardly the only dogma out there (if they 20th century demonstrated anything, it's that socio-political indoctrination and dogma can be just as pervasive, just as destructive, and just as all-encompassing as religious dogma). It's certainly true that many people never leave the religions they were raised in because they were either never taught to question it (or taught never to question it), or they were simply never taught to question, reason, analyze, etc., at all. It is also certainly true that religion, by its very nature, entails a certain amount of faith which I would argue is not required by agnosticism or atheism. That said, the reason I eventually decided I did not believe in the faith in which I was raised has a great deal to do with the way my parents (and in particular my father) forced me to question, defend, and think about any and all opinions I had.



I can't really argue with logical points.

I just see it at this, with out meaning to offend anyone...
People who are stuck believing what they want and are okay with it being the "truth" are stupid (for lack of a better word) for not questioning everything else out there.
Its part of our evolution. Only some of us are more enlightened to everything out there. Whether or not we know the "truth" is not or goal. Its to know as many facts as we can so that someday we might reach the truth.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
I can't really argue with logical points.

I just see it at this, with out meaning to offend anyone...
People who are stuck believing what they want and are okay with it being the "truth" are stupid (for lack of a better word) for not questioning everything else out there.

I don't think it's stupid. Just human.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
i think it is always a choice. if you do not want to believe you can simply stop believing

Huh? Why would a person just want to up and stop believing their beliefs all of a sudden? You think people just turn off beliefs like a switch?
 

Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
Is belief a choice or is something that you don't have much control over? Now I'm not talking about freewill or anything like that. Is belief a decision you make?

It is a 'choice', but I don't know that I can choose otherwise. My beliefs arise at the end of an internal reasoning process. I suppose my beliefs may change if something forces a refinement or reassessment of my reasoning process. It's not like there's a switch in my brain where I can just accept a different thought pattern. Even if my eternal soul was at stake, I cannot choose otherwise.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
I certainly choose my beliefs. I can choose to "be in the groove where ever I go" by emotionally empathizing and understanding a different perspective, and interact with that perspective both rationally and emotionally. I can also choose to remain there or to choose a different perspective to connect with.

The claim that belief isn't a choice really blows my mind! :confused:
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
I certainly choose my beliefs. I can choose to "be in the groove where ever I go" by emotionally empathizing and understanding a different perspective, and interact with that perspective both rationally and emotionally. I can also choose to remain there or to choose a different perspective to connect with.

The claim that belief isn't a choice really blows my mind! :confused:

Would you say that everything you believe was a conscious choice of yours to believe that way? Or perhaps have some of your beliefs developed and come to be without you even trying? They just are, with no contemplation or effort on your part simply due to experiences, knowledge and influence over your years? You can't honestly think of anything that you believe that you haven't sat down and made a conscious choice about? Anything which may have formed entirely on its own?
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
Would you say that everything you believe was a conscious choice of yours to believe that way? Or perhaps have some of your beliefs developed and come to be without you even trying? They just are, with no contemplation or effort on your part simply due to experiences, knowledge and influence over your years? You can't honestly think of anything that you believe that you haven't sat down and made a conscious choice about? Anything which may have formed entirely on its own?
Well, yes. Ever since I was a toddler, I've always believed in the equivalent of "when there's a will, there's a way." {I was quite the handful as a child. :eek:} My family tradition has always been that children will be raised to have their own minds, and to think for themselves, so I never really received any specific indoctrination other than manners, how to treat others, and how society works. I questioned everything, and my parents were patient with me--answering my questions with sound reasoning. I've also always delighted in the uniqueness of specific items or situations--the specific anomalies of each thing/situation and the variety to be found, so it's been easy to find and appreciate beauty everywhere. This may be another example of a belief that simply arose in my consciousness.

Then there is the underlying belief in the Dhamma/Ma'at/Tao/The Way/Natural Order that might also be a belief that came through experience, but I do consciously and wholeheartedly embrace, as there is enough room in it for a wide variety perspectives and possibilities to find beauty in and to delight in.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
Well, yes. Ever since I was a toddler, I've always believed in the equivalent of "when there's a will, there's a way." {I was quite the handful as a child. :eek:} My family tradition has always been that children will be raised to have their own minds, and to think for themselves, so I never really received any specific indoctrination other than manners, how to treat others, and how society works. I questioned everything, and my parents were patient with me--answering my questions with sound reasoning. I've also always delighted in the uniqueness of specific items or situations--the specific anomalies of each thing/situation and the variety to be found, so it's been easy to find and appreciate beauty everywhere. This may be another example of a belief that simply arose in my consciousness.

Then there is the underlying belief in the Dhamma/Ma'at/Tao/The Way/Natural Order that might also be a belief that came through experience, but I do consciously and wholeheartedly embrace, as there is enough room in it for a wide variety perspectives and possibilities to find beauty in and to delight in.

See, I'm not saying you can't choose to embrace those beliefs, as you said you do, all I'm saying is that, especially in regards to our deep spiritual and meaningful beliefs, they are not really so much choice as they are...grown within us. They become. Growing out of our own experiences and knowledge, our visions and sight, our emotions and tests. Not so much a matter of just sitting down and choosing what to believe, more so a matter of our lives just guiding us to what we cannot deny.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
See, I'm not saying you can't choose to embrace those beliefs, as you said you do, all I'm saying is that, especially in regards to our deep spiritual and meaningful beliefs, they are not really so much choice as they are...grown within us. They become. Growing out of our own experiences and knowledge, our visions and sight, our emotions and tests. Not so much a matter of just sitting down and choosing what to believe, more so a matter of our lives just guiding us to what we cannot deny.

Well, I still question these basic beliefs. These are the ones that have survived the constant questioning. (How the basic garden works, I guess.) Within the garden, however, I still delight in romancing the roses, then wandering off to an infatuation with the lillies, then wandering off to admire the tulips, then on to questioning the lilacs, etc. This is where the choice in believing comes in--choosing to delight in the different specific flowers within the garden. The Way of the pink rose on the right is different from The Way of the pink rose on the left, which is different from The Way of the tulip in front of me. While The Way of the pink rose my seem to contradict The Way of the tulip, there is beauty to be found in both, and I can choose to embrace either or both, or not. {So to speak.}
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
Perhaps I'm confusing belief with empathetic joy here. Can you have empathetic joy along with disbelief? Hmm...
 
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