Is belief a choice?

[Draka]

Doubt can just be a matter of needing more knowledge. Like letting someone go cause of reasonable doubt. More knowledge can very well convict a person. I could have faith I made the right the decision, but what i choose to believe i up to me when it leaves the realm of knowing. One can also just choose not to invest faith until more knowledge is attained, like what your saying but that isn't investing in a belief.

Do you think that all belief is the same? I think we are hung up on that word here. I think we all use it differently in different contexts. When speaking in the realm of spiritual matters a person who says "I believe" may well mean "I know" to themselves. When speaking in the realm of other areas the convincing may not be so strong so as to "know", but to lean. Which is why I said earlier that in the realm of spiritual matters a person using the word "believe" may well mean "know", it's just not the accepted manner of saying it.

I can't understand why love can't be based on reason. I do understand emotions aren't always reasonable but doesn't always have to be. Just like fear, fear can be for a real danger or an imagined one. Love doesn't have to be based on something imagined.

Imagined? What's imagined? Why must feelings be imagined? Are you saying that unless you have some checklist of logical reasons to care for a person that the love is imagined?

Emotions aren't always by choice, I understand that, as they are not always rational per se. But beliefs aren't always based on emotions and if they are then there is some sort of self delusion involved there. Love has reasons otherwise it is just some magic spell, we constantly have internal dialouge it isn't just butterflies in the stomach, there is thought process and decision making.

Love does NOT have reasons. If you go looking for reasons to love then you are trying to justify staying or loving a person usually in spite of something. Love just is and shouldn't be checklisted or categorized.

 

[Willamena]

Faith is what instills what is truth relative to what they believe it is.

Belief is an indicator, a finger pointing at a truth that we have no choice but to have faith in.

 

[idav]

You can tame your mind in order to bring your emotions in line with reason. It's one of the areas where meditation comes in quite handy.

Agreed.

I'm the one who brought up the etymology of the word "belief," in that it means "beloved," and how nobody wants counterfeit love. (Hence we have doubt, testing, and proofs, in both belief and in love.)

Trust and faith are a big part of love but can be unconditional.

Do you think that all belief is the same? I think we are hung up on that word here. I think we all use it differently in different contexts. When speaking in the realm of spiritual matters a person who says "I believe" may well mean "I know" to themselves. When speaking in the realm of other areas the convincing may not be so strong so as to "know", but to lean. Which is why I said earlier that in the realm of spiritual matters a person using the word "believe" may well mean "know", it's just not the accepted manner of saying it.

You use know interchangeably but I like to know the difference. I am hesitant to express knowledge of god even if I think I have a clue or two.

Imagined? What's imagined? Why must feelings be imagined? Are you saying that unless you have some checklist of logical reasons to care for a person that the love is imagined?

What am saying is that emotions don't have to control us, we can control them and it can be logical as well. Love isn't always unconditional like with children. I also like distinguish between something that our body forces us to do vs what we actually have control over.

Saying we can't control love means that I might just go somewhere and just fall in love with no control over myself while neglecting the family at home that loves me. Do people not have control over this "love" really?

 

[Warren Clark]

Belief is an indicator, a finger pointing at a truth that we have no choice but to have faith in.

You can't believe if you don't have faith. You must have faith to believe it is the truth.

 

[Draka]

You use know interchangeably but I like to know the difference. I am hesitant to express knowledge of god even if I think I have a clue or two.

You can be hesitant all you like. You cannot however, expect everyone else to be hesitant to express what we feel we know or believe. And, unlike some people, I do not purport to know all there is to know about deity, just what I have personally experienced. I say what ideas I have, what I think, what I know and how I got there. Much of which is for me alone. When I say that what I believe is not a choice,...it really is not a choice. Whether or not you can accept that...remains to be seen.

What am saying is that emotions don't have to control us, we can control them and it can be logical as well. Love isn't always unconditional like with children. I also like distinguish between something that our body forces us to do vs what we actually have control over.

Again, I think you're reading words I didn't write. I never said that love controls us. As I said before, you're comparing internal with external, emotions with actions. Just because you fall in love with someone it doesn't mean you have to act upon that love. It may hurt to deny yourself that love, but you certainly do not have to act upon it. You may not have control over whom you love, but you do have control over your actions and how you comport yourself. You seem to be confusing the two.

Saying we can't control love means that I might just go somewhere and just fall in love with no control over myself while neglecting the family at home that loves me. Do people not have control over this "love" really?

You may well go somewhere and fall in love with someone else. That falling in love is beyond your control, it is not a choice. Whether you choose to neglect your family for this new person is within your control. It is possible to love more than one person. It is possible to love in more than one way. It is possible to fall in love when you are not expecting it. Even when you don't want to. What you choose to do once that happens...THAT is what is within your control.

 

[Willamena]

You can't believe if you don't have faith. You must have faith to believe it is the truth.

I believe that's what I said.

 

[crossfire]

Agreed.

Trust and faith are a big part of love but can be unconditional.

You use know interchangeably but I like to know the difference. I am hesitant to express knowledge of god even if I think I have a clue or two.

What am saying is that emotions don't have to control us, we can control them and it can be logical as well. Love isn't always unconditional like with children. I also like distinguish between something that our body forces us to do vs what we actually have control over.

Our body forces us to breathe so we don't have to consciously think about it all the time. However, we can also consciously control our breath. (We can hold our breath when diving underwater, or we can just consciously become aware of our breath and regulate it.) It's not an all-or-nothing thing.

Saying we can't control love means that I might just go somewhere and just fall in love with no control over myself while neglecting the family at home that loves me. Do people not have control over this "love" really?

I think of it more like breathing. It's a living thing.

 

[Draka]

I believe that's what I said.

Do you have faith that that's the truth?

 

[sandandfoam]

Google "Indirect Doxastic Voluntarism".

Very interesting. Thank you.

 

[Willamena]

Do you have faith that that's the truth?

Different context of "believe".

 

[idav]

Our body forces us to breathe so we don't have to consciously think about it all the time. However, we can also consciously control our breath. (We can hold our breath when diving underwater, or we can just consciously become aware of our breath and regulate it.) It's not an all-or-nothing thing.

Thats a decent comparison.

I think of it more like breathing. It's a living thing.

With our conscious actions we should think before we act. Other than basic necessities like breathing, heart beating etc. we should try to keep involuntary actions to a minimum

 

[Warren Clark]

I believe that's what I said.

well i was talking in the context of a god.
I dont believe in god, it doesnt require faith.
I require evidence.
so i believe in things I can witness with my five senses.
faith doesnt have a place in reason and logistics.
so if i said i believe the world is round, I have every reason to believe it without faith.
ive already used doubt to make reason.

 

[idav]

That's been my assumption about you all along -- especially the 'pretty' part.

:hearts: You have thoroughly embarrassed me good sir.

So I've been debating beliefs on love with a fairy. That hardly seems fair!

 

[Draka]

Thats a decent comparison.

I'd respectfully have to disagree. Breathing is still an action. Something we can claim at least some physical control over. Love is not an action. It is an emotion. We can act out of emotion, sure, but the emotion itself is still there. We still have it. What we intend to do with ourselves and how we conduct ourselves is the choice we make.

You want to make a comparison? Try out this one: You don't choose to get sick. To catch a cold. You may take measures perhaps to avoid such, but a virus is a virus and sometimes you just can't avoid it...it hits you. Once you have that cold you have choices to make. Do you go to work? Do you stay home in bed? Do you expose others to it or avoid others? How do you care for yourself? See? You had no choice in getting the cold, but you still had choices in how you responded to getting it and dealing with it.

You have no choice in whom you love or falling in love. You do, however, have choices in how you conduct yourself once in love.

 

[idav]

You have no choice in whom you love or falling in love. You do, however, have choices in how you conduct yourself once in love.

Honestly it is possible to have control over emotions a lot like the breathing analogy. If some insane maniac were to try and kill me would I be just twitterpated not be able to control myself? Or I get in a wreck and some nurse or doctor saves my life I won't be able resist, I'm not talking about florence nightingale syndrome. Sure people might sometimes get that syndrome but they choose to indulge in it. It is a thought before it is an action and it is a lot easier to control it at the thoughts stage nipping it before emotions take the control.

 

[Draka]

So I've been debating beliefs on love with a fairy. That hardly seems fair!

If only I had the dang gossamer wings.

 

[Willamena]

ive already used doubt to make reason.

For most people, it's the other way around.

 

[Warren Clark]

For most people, it's the other way around.

using reason to make doubt?
im lost.

reason can cause doubt which is why people find faith, because they cant find reason to have doubt.
people need to see that doubt can be good.
it keeps us from being gullible.

 

[Draka]

Honestly it is possible to have control over emotions a lot like the breathing analogy. If some insane maniac were to try and kill me would I be just twitterpated not be able to control myself? Or I get in a wreck and some nurse or doctor saves my life I won't be able resist, I'm not talking about florence nightingale syndrome. Sure people might sometimes get that syndrome but they choose to indulge in it. It is a thought before it is an action and it is a lot easier to control it at the thoughts stage nipping it before emotions take the control.

You are talking of suppressing emotional or lustful thoughts, "crushes". Choosing not to act on them or recognize them. Turning away from them. That is not the same as simply choosing whom you do and do not love. The way you talked before you sounded as if you thought you could really simply choose to love someone, or just choose not to, as if by switch. Choosing not to pursue a relationship with someone is not really the same thing.

 

[Willamena]

using reason to make doubt?
im lost.

reason can cause doubt which is why people find faith, because they cant find reason to have doubt.

"Using reason to make doubt" is not about doubting reason, but reasoning out doubt.

people need to see that doubt can be good.
it keeps us from being gullible.

Indeed.