Is belief a choice?

[Warren Clark]

I do not feel as if I have any choice in what I believe.

Just in curiosity:

Are you convicted in your religion that it is the truth?

Have you ever tried new experiences within other religions?

If doing so, have you chosen to stick with your current religious faith?

 

[idav]

This is a great point. Deployed on a previous occasion it changed my thinking on the subject.
I tried to think of a coherent refutation. I failed. If there is a coherent argument against the point I would love to read it.

We have knowledge that goes against it since we know toads don't normally type. Beliefs are normally in the realm of plausible or else it's called insanity not belief.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

It really matters on how smart a person is. And I am not joking when I say that.
That bigger the idiot the more conforming the religion.

People who visit Wicca or Buddhism aren't told that everything else is evil. They are told that it is a part of our life and we must choose our own path.
However, the Baptists will tell you that you will burn in hell if you stray from their path of enlightenment.

Choose who you will carefully, because if you are an idiot, you wont have much choice at all.

A rather minor response to the above is the problem with the statement about what those who "visit" religions/faiths/spiritualities are "told". It simply is not true. I know of many wiccans or former wiccans who began down that spiritual path because they were told it was "evil" or "wrong".

Far more problematic, however, is your model of correlation: "idiocy" maps individuals to some range of religious/spiritual space such that the greater the idiocy factor, the more restricted the range.

Apart from empirical reasons why this is simply not true, there is the issue of your own "idiocy" factor. If idiocy should be weighted as you seem to, naturally anybody whose "idiocy" factor is high would be unable to realize how this effects their understanding of religion, choice, and so forth. How then can you know your analysis isn't the product of you being an "idiot"?

 

[sandandfoam]

Just in curiosity:

Are you convicted in your religion that it is the truth?

Have you ever tried new experiences within other religions?

If doing so, have you chosen to stick with your current religious faith?

I believe it is the truth for me.

I have looked at many religions but none seem to 'fit' me like Islam.

I do not feel like I am sticking with a faith but rather growing in subjective understanding.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I tried to think of a coherent refutation. I failed. If there is a coherent argument against the point I would love to read it.

Google "Indirect Doxastic Voluntarism".

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Choose to believe yourself to be a toad. Let us know how that worked for you.

If I chose so, it would be my conscious decision.

The test is both real and substantive. Avoidance does little for your credibility on this question.

 

[Draka]

Faith is only true to the person. Faith in God is personal experience but that doesn't take away the doubt and the faith needed to overcome. When there is doubt a person would have to choose to overcome the doubt.

Doubt is caused by receiving information which contradicts that which we have already assimilated and formed a belief based upon. We remain in this state of doubt until more information is received to either negate what caused the doubt or undo all of which was already formed by us. Either way, it's still not really a conscious choice we make. We may find ourselves pondering things from time to time when we are confused, but when we reach a point of convincing then we are convinced. As much as 2+2=4 again.

What does love, not based on reason, have to do with belief? Other than loving someone the way we want the person to be rather than the reality that the person actually is? Faith and trust are the belief aspects of the relationship, what you believe about the people.

Love is not based on reason. And I was not the one who originally brought up love in this discussion if you recall. I was the one who merely pointed out that love was not a choice. Which it isn't, no matter how many times you seem to wish to say it is. The "argument" that somehow love keeps a person from choosing to leave was interesting though. How that was supposed to work I have yet to figure out.

 

[Willamena]

I think a lot of confusion stems from people meaning different things when they say, "believe."

To some, it has a connotation of falsehood; to others, it is inherent of knowledge. To some, it defies truth, and to others it indicates it.

 

[Draka]

Choose to believe yourself to be a toad. Let us know how that worked for you.

Can I be a pretty fairy? With pretty gossamer wings? If I close my eyes and believe REALLY hard will it work?

 

[Warren Clark]

A rather minor response to the above is the problem with the statement about what those who "visit" religions/faiths/spiritualities are "told". It simply is not true. I know of many wiccans or former wiccans who began down that spiritual path because they were told it was "evil" or "wrong".

Far more problematic, however, is your model of correlation: "idiocy" maps individuals to some range of religious/spiritual space such that the greater the idiocy factor, the more restricted the range.

Apart from empirical reasons why this is simply not true, there is the issue of your own "idiocy" factor. If idiocy should be weighted as you seem to, naturally anybody whose "idiocy" factor is high would be unable to realize how this effects their understanding or religion, choice, and so forth. How then can you know your analysis isn't the product of you being an "idiot"?

That is a very reasonable question.
I call myself a humanist, pantheist, and an atheist.
I used to call myself a christian, and then a pagan, and that is where I came to pantheism before I ever came to atheism.

I didnt come to the conclusion that I was an atheist until I thought long and hard of what it meant to be a Pantheist. And I still call myself a Pantheist.

I do this because I have experienced many religions including Wicca and Paganism. I went to Wicca first because it was most tangible. My friends were Wicca and my parents forbade it. It like your friend only provoked me to dabble outside of my own religion.

I don't concider myself stupid because I am not stuck in one religion or sect.
I am more than open to widening my horizons.
That is why I still call myself a pantheist and not just an atheist.
I believe that a Pantheist is an atheist but it has a more romantic homage towards the universe. In this case the universe is in the sense "God". But there is nothing invisible or supernatural about it.

I am still open to new discoveries. When new discoveries come, I make change to my "religious affiliation".

My mother was born into the catholic church. But she was never brought up to believe other Christian sects were "evil" (other than Jehovah's Witness) so she felt free to attend other Christian churches. Which is why I was brought up Baptist.
However in my Baptist church they claimed every other Christian had it wrong and everyone was an outsider unless they were "Born Again".

Many people never left the church because they were indoctrinated.
But those that were smarter were able to leave, but it was not without guilt instilled by the indoctrination.

It's hard for us not to be controlled by our stupidity when we are kept stupid.

 

[Warren Clark]

I believe it is the truth for me.

I have looked at many religions but none seem to 'fit' me like Islam.

I do not feel like I am sticking with a faith but rather growing in subjective understanding.

Then no matter how you put it, it was technically chosen.
You could have chosen one that did not fit your current beliefs.
But you chose the one that was comforting.
(Not saying there is any problem with it, just pointing out that it was a conscious choice you made.)

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Can I be a pretty fairy? With pretty gossamer wings?

That's been my assumption about you all along -- especially the 'pretty' part.

 

[crossfire]

What does love, not based on reason, have to do with belief? Other than loving someone the way we want the person to be rather than the reality that the person actually is? Faith and trust are the belief aspects of the relationship, what you believe about the people.

I'm the one who brought up the etymology of the word "belief," in that it means "beloved," and how nobody wants counterfeit love. (Hence we have doubt, testing, and proofs, in both belief and in love.)

 

[Warren Clark]

I think a lot of confusion stems from people meaning different things when they say, "believe."

To some, it has a connotation of falsehood; to others, it is inherent of knowledge. To some, it defies truth, and to others it indicates it.

Faith is what instills what is truth relative to what they believe it is.

 

[sandandfoam]

You could have chosen one that did not fit your current beliefs.

This does not make sense.

I feel like I have no choice in my belief, what seems coherent seems coherent.

You are suggesting that I chose to believe what I believe when I experienced it as no choice.

I could not believe in Aphrodite no matter how much I wanted to. I could not believe myself to be a toad no matter how hard I tried.

 

[idav]

Doubt is caused by receiving information which contradicts that which we have already assimilated and formed a belief based upon. We remain in this state of doubt until more information is received to either negate what caused the doubt or undo all of which was already formed by us. Either way, it's still not really a conscious choice we make. We may find ourselves pondering things from time to time when we are confused, but when we reach a point of convincing then we are convinced. As much as 2+2=4 again.

Doubt can just be a matter of needing more knowledge. Like letting someone go cause of reasonable doubt. More knowledge can very well convict a person. I could have faith I made the right the decision, but what i choose to believe i up to me when it leaves the realm of knowing. One can also just choose not to invest faith until more knowledge is attained, like what your saying but that isn't investing in a belief.

Love is not based on reason. And I was not the one who originally brought up love in this discussion if you recall. I was the one who merely pointed out that love was not a choice. Which it isn't, no matter how many times you seem to wish to say it is. The "argument" that somehow love keeps a person from choosing to leave was interesting though. How that was supposed to work I have yet to figure out.

I can't understand why love can't be based on reason. I do understand emotions aren't always reasonable but doesn't always have to be. Just like fear, fear can be for a real danger or an imagined one. Love doesn't have to be based on something imagined.

Emotions aren't always by choice, I understand that, as they are not always rational per se. But beliefs aren't always based on emotions and if they are then there is some sort of self delusion involved there. Love has reasons otherwise it is just some magic spell, we constantly have internal dialouge it isn't just butterflies in the stomach, there is thought process and decision making.

 

[crossfire]

This does not make sense.

I feel like I have no choice in my belief, what seems coherent seems coherent.

You are suggesting that I chose to believe what I believe when I experienced it as no choice.

I could not believe in Aphrodite no matter how much I wanted to. I could not believe myself to be a toad no matter how hard I tried.

Like I said, nobody wants counterfeit love (belief.)

 

[Draka]

That's been my assumption about you all along -- especially the 'pretty' part.

:hearts: You have thoroughly embarrassed me good sir.

 

[crossfire]

Doubt can just be a matter of needing more knowledge. Like letting someone go cause of reasonable doubt. More knowledge can very well convict a person. I could have faith I made the right the decision, but what i choose to believe i up to me when it leaves the realm of knowing. One can also just choose not to invest faith until more knowledge is attained, like what your saying but that isn't investing in a belief.


I can't understand why love can't be based on reason. I do understand emotions aren't always reasonable but doesn't always have to be. Just like fear, fear can be for a real danger or an imagined one. Love doesn't have to be based on something imagined.

Emotions aren't always by choice, I understand that, as they are not always rational per se. But beliefs aren't always based on emotions and if they are then there is some sort of self delusion involved there. Love has reasons otherwise it is just some magic spell, we constantly have internal dialouge it isn't just butterflies in the stomach, there is thought process and decision making.

You can tame your mind in order to bring your emotions in line with reason. It's one of the areas where meditation comes in quite handy.

 

[Warren Clark]

This does not make sense.

I feel like I have no choice in my belief, what seems coherent seems coherent.

You are suggesting that I chose to believe what I believe when I experienced it as no choice.

I could not believe in Aphrodite no matter how much I wanted to. I could not believe myself to be a toad no matter how hard I tried.

I am saying people choose some religions simply for conformity.
(i am not saying you did that, I am just saying some people do.)

People are comfortable with the people in their surroundings so they adapt to them.
There are people who might not agree with everything in the Quran but want to feel welcome by their comrades.
I myself did it for several years as a Christian. I chose to be a Christian because it was convenient. At the time I believed that maybe there was a God, and I liked the guy Jesus but I never believed that Mary truly gave birth as a virgin. I always saw it as a fairy tale that went with Santa Clause. But I still enjoyed the stories, so I stayed in conscious choice.

Today I am a Pantheist because I grew up and out of conformity.

That is what I meant by that,