Is belief a choice?

[Draka]

You've said this but I've give reasons to say otherwise.


Repeating it doesn't make it true. So everyone just uses love at first sight? People don't choose their friends? How does a mom choose to love their abusive spouse over their children, that isn't choice? If love is anything like an addiction then it is only choice in the beginning and becomes less of a choice after. For kids it is just biological imperative yet their are some moms that struggle to feel affection.

I didn't say anything about love at first sight. Just like belief, it is usually a convincing that occurs. You seem to think that everything happens by way of checklists and decisions. Like we all have this internal "for" and "against" listing that we make for absolutely everything and then, after consciously weighing everything, we make a decision and CHOOSE one way or another. That's simply not how the human mind functions in the very basics of things like emotions and beliefs.

If I have experiences, witness things, which I cannot deny, no matter how hard I try to do so, those things affect me. Affect how I see things. Affect how I look at things. How I BELIEVE. I cannot help that. I cannot simply CHOOSE to believe counter to how those experiences have affected me. If I learn, if I see with my own eyes, that 2+2=4, then no amount of trying will make me able to simply CHOOSE to believe that 2+2=5 and honestly and truly believe and accept that. My mind won't let me. It's not a matter of choice. it's a matter of what my mind, my logic, my rational reasoning ability, will and won't allow me to do. At no point did I choose to believe that 2+2=4, it was accepted by my mind. It was proven to my mind to a point to where I now believe it to be true. It would take something greater than that to make me accept otherwise. This is where conversions would come in. How minds are changed.

Love, and other emotions, can be looked at in much the same way. Most of the time, except in the cases of perhaps parenthood, love is a gradual thing. Not easily explained, but a falling and not helped. Not a choice, but something that happens usually when we least expect and for someone we didn't expect. If love is a choice then are you also saying that sexuality orientation is also a choice. Because I know a great many people whose argument against homosexuality is that love is a choice and they can simply CHOOSE to love someone of the opposite sex. I have yet to know of a homosexual who has said that they can CHOOSE to love someone of the opposite sex. Or vice-versa for that matter.

 

[Warren Clark]

I think it is a choice since people can also convert to other religions it supports the idea of free will.

but what is the reason behind people converting?
is it social acceptance, or do they have an experience that makes them a true believer?

 

[F0uad]

but what is the reason behind people converting?
is it social acceptance, or do they have an experience that makes them a true believer?

It can be both but one first accepts or denies the one as truth and there can be many reasons for it.
However that doesn't changes the fact that they can choose to accept or deny it..
I hope you understand what i am trying to say here..

 

[idav]

I didn't say anything about love at first sight. Just like belief, it is usually a convincing that occurs. You seem to think that everything happens by way of checklists and decisions.

If there was no need for checklists and decisions then no need for convincing.

Like we all have this internal "for" and "against" listing that we make for absolutely everything and then, after consciously weighing everything, we make a decision and CHOOSE one way or another. That's simply not how the human mind functions in the very basics of things like emotions and beliefs.

Why not? Emotions and beliefs don't have to be illogical.

If I have experiences, witness things, which I cannot deny, no matter how hard I try to do so, those things affect me.

I don't doubt that.

Affect how I see things. Affect how I look at things. How I BELIEVE. I cannot help that. I cannot simply CHOOSE to believe counter to how those experiences have affected me. If I learn, if I see with my own eyes, that 2+2=4, then no amount of trying will make me able to simply CHOOSE to believe that 2+2=5 and honestly and truly believe and accept that. My mind won't let me. It's not a matter of choice. it's a matter of what my mind, my logic, my rational reasoning ability, will and won't allow me to do. At no point did I choose to believe that 2+2=4, it was accepted by my mind. It was proven to my mind to a point to where I now believe it to be true. It would take something greater than that to make me accept otherwise. This is where conversions would come in. How minds are changed.

Having the knowledge means it isn't really a belief. You don't believe you know at the point knowledge comes into play. No faith or choosing is needed.

Love, and other emotions, can be looked at in much the same way. Most of the time, except in the cases of perhaps parenthood, love is a gradual thing. Not easily explained, but a falling and not helped. Not a choice, but something that happens usually when we least expect and for someone we didn't expect.

An interesting factoid about that is that people are just as likely to fall in love with a randomly picked spouse as they would for someone hand picked by them. Sounds like when we meet people we take time to deliberate as affection either grows or doesn't.

If love is a choice then are you also saying that sexuality orientation is also a choice. Because I know a great many people whose argument against homosexuality is that love is a choice and they can simply CHOOSE to love someone of the opposite sex. I have yet to know of a homosexual who has said that they can CHOOSE to love someone of the opposite sex. Or vice-versa for that matter.

This is sort of a tangent from someone comparing belief with love (not my comparison). However I did mention that love is like an addiction in which case, choice is limited. Though emotions like beliefs don't have to be illogical but we certainly have less control over emotions.

The belief that 1+1=2 isn't a belief at all but a logical construct. We use that very sort of logic to determine what the logical ramifications are for the beliefs/premises we hold. If we believe some unfounded premise then it is by choice and the logic from there would just follow. Premises don't have to be true but we don't have to invest faith into unfounded premeses unless we chose to do so.

 

[Warren Clark]

It can be both but one first accepts or denies the one as truth and there can be many reasons for it.
However that doesn't changes the fact that they can choose to accept or deny it..
I hope you understand what i am trying to say here..

i do

i believe people have the option to accept or deny everything.

I went through life thinking god hated me because thats what people told me. But i denied that as the truth.
I instead thought for myself "there is no god that can hate me" later in my life through other learning experiences.

it depends what you subject yourself to.

So I would agree with you...

 

[Orias]

Is belief a choice?

It depends on if you can answer this question.

Is existing a choice?

Or is it being asked if of the millions of things out there that people believe in, a person can choose among them what they want to believe.

Then I woud say no, people have core beliefs and as they progress they merely add onto them.

I believe Quagmire could expand upon this a little bit

 

[Draka]

If there was no need for checklists and decisions then no need for convincing.

Why not? Emotions and beliefs don't have to be illogical.

Didn't say they were illogical, I said they didn't work that way. The way they work is logical, it just isn't the way you seem to think they should work.

I don't doubt that.

Having the knowledge means it isn't really a belief. You don't believe you know at the point knowledge comes into play. No faith or choosing is needed.

Funny things, those words "knowledge" and "belief". What I believe I know about spiritual matters I know from my own experiences. No one else has those experiences. I can say I "know" this or I "know" that and the response I would get from anyone else would be..."no you don't"..."prove it"..."you just believe that". I can't prove what I "know" to anyone else because I can't duplicate my spiritual experiences which have happened to me for anyone else. The "proof" which was shown to me was not mine in the first place, therefore it is not mine to give to someone else. So, in the case of religion and spirituality, "belief" and "knowledge" may well be interchangeable on a personal level. It's just simply easier and more cordial to say "I believe" when talking with others than to say "I know". We all "know" something different when it comes to spiritual matters, therefore "know" and "believe" can be quite the same in that context.

An interesting factoid about that is that people are just as likely to fall in love with a randomly picked spouse as they would for someone hand picked by them. Sounds like when we meet people we take time to deliberate as affection either grows or doesn't.

It grows or it doesn't, quite right. But it can't just be forced. You can't just willy nilly choose to love someone you don't or stop loving someone you do.

This is sort of a tangent from someone comparing belief with love (not my comparison). However I did mention that love is like an addiction in which case, choice is limited. Though emotions like beliefs don't have to be illogical but we certainly have less control over emotions.

Wasn't really a tangent. Just following the logical flow really. If we simply maintained your line of thought, that everything was a matter of choice, even love, then all people should be able to choose who they love. It should follow then, that should mean across sexual orientations as well. If you are willing to see the flaw in that line of thinking then we have a breakthrough.

The belief that 1+1=2 isn't a belief at all but a logical construct. We use that very sort of logic to determine what the logical ramifications are for the beliefs/premises we hold. If we believe some unfounded premise then it is by choice and the logic from there would just follow. Premises don't have to be true but we don't have to invest faith into unfounded premeses unless we chose to do so.

What "unfounded premises" do you think people are choosing to believe in? And why do you think they are necessarily "unfounded"?

 

[crossfire]

Didn't say they were illogical, I said they didn't work that way. The way they work is logical, it just isn't the way you seem to think they should work.
Funny things, those words "knowledge" and "belief". What I believe I know about spiritual matters I know from my own experiences. No one else has those experiences. I can say I "know" this or I "know" that and the response I would get from anyone else would be..."no you don't"..."prove it"..."you just believe that". I can't prove what I "know" to anyone else because I can't duplicate my spiritual experiences which have happened to me for anyone else. The "proof" which was shown to me was not mine in the first place, therefore it is not mine to give to someone else. So, in the case of religion and spirituality, "belief" and "knowledge" may well be interchangeable on a personal level.

Invoking "proof" is getting back to genuine or counterfeit love again, no?

It's just simply easier and more cordial to say "I believe" when talking with others than to say "I know". We all "know" something different when it comes to spiritual matters, therefore "know" and "believe" can be quite the same in that context.

Oh gee, why do I have etymology on my mind and why has this conversation been going in that direction? To believe = love, to know = to have intercourse. Private spiritual interaction is kinda like "to know" in the biblical sense.

It grows or it doesn't, quite right. But it can't just be forced. You can't just willy nilly choose to love someone you don't or stop loving someone you do.

Does it need both a spiritual component and a physical component in order to grow (to live?) (Spirit = breath, soul = a breather)

Wasn't really a tangent. Just following the logical flow really. If we simply maintained your line of thought, that everything was a matter of choice, even love, then all people should be able to choose who they love. It should follow then, that should mean across sexual orientations as well. If you are willing to see the flaw in that line of thinking then we have a breakthrough.

It's good to explore this perspective.

What "unfounded premises" do you think people are choosing to believe in? And why do you think they are necessarily "unfounded"?

An axiam mutually agreed upon is my understanding of the Philosopher's Stone. If an agreed upon axiam is not known to be true, then you build your argument, undermine the original premise, and then test the constructed argument to see if it can fly or stand on its own.

 

[NIX]

There are paradigms where 'beliefs' are chosen and put on like clothing or music, to 'suit' one's personal style, preferences, inclinations, inspirations, needs, goals, moods, company and desired destination of the moment.
Cognizantly living life "as if"- with pragmatic fluidity; faith existing as a series of chosen leaps. While all the time, underneath there is only the observer.
This is not the paradigm most people live in however.

 

[Draka]

Invoking "proof" is getting back to genuine or counterfeit love again, no?

You've mentioned them, what would you say is the difference?

Oh gee, why do I have etymology on my mind and why has this conversation been going in that direction? To believe = love, to know = to have intercourse. Private spiritual interaction is kinda like "to know" in the biblical sense.

Your mind is going there , not mine. tsk tsk

Does it need both a spiritual component and a physical component in order to grow (to live?) (Spirit = breath, soul = a breather)

Getting philosophical now are we? But, depending on the type of love, probably. Though I'm not sure the physical is always really required.

It's good to explore this perspective.

I thought so, though he seems to think it a tangent because it tends to poke holes in his general argument.

An axiam mutually agreed upon is my understanding of the Philosopher's Stone. If an agreed upon axiam is not known to be true, then you build your argument, undermine the original premise, and then test the constructed argument to see if it can fly or stand on its own.

The whole problem here is, we are dealing with people's personal spiritual and religious beliefs. Beliefs about deity or what one may consider the "supernatural" or "paranormal". Things that, at this moment at least, really cannot be adequately tested by any means we currently have. So such beliefs are on a personal basis and are validated as such too. So, the premises are "founded" on a one-on-one basis.

 

[idav]

Funny things, those words "knowledge" and "belief". What I believe I know about spiritual matters I know from my own experiences. No one else has those experiences. I can say I "know" this or I "know" that and the response I would get from anyone else would be..."no you don't"..."prove it"..."you just believe that". I can't prove what I "know" to anyone else because I can't duplicate my spiritual experiences which have happened to me for anyone else. The "proof" which was shown to me was not mine in the first place, therefore it is not mine to give to someone else. So, in the case of religion and spirituality, "belief" and "knowledge" may well be interchangeable on a personal level. It's just simply easier and more cordial to say "I believe" when talking with others than to say "I know". We all "know" something different when it comes to spiritual matters, therefore "know" and "believe" can be quite the same in that context.

They aren't the same. Belief needs faith and knowing does not.

It grows or it doesn't, quite right. But it can't just be forced. You can't just willy nilly choose to love someone you don't or stop loving someone you do.
Wasn't really a tangent. Just following the logical flow really. If we simply maintained your line of thought, that everything was a matter of choice, even love, then all people should be able to choose who they love. It should follow then, that should mean across sexual orientations as well. If you are willing to see the flaw in that line of thinking then we have a breakthrough.
What "unfounded premises" do you think people are choosing to believe in? And why do you think they are necessarily "unfounded"?

Belief has very little to do with sexual orientation, love covers more than those type of relationships. If you want to talk about belief in relationships we can consider whether or not people love the person they want or the person that is actually there. If it weren't a choice we would never be able to choose to leave. For someone that is loved there would be a laundry list of reasons why you choose so. To say you don't choose is to say that love holds you against your will, as if your partner just put some spell on you.

 

[Draka]

They aren't the same. Belief needs faith and knowing does not.

I have faith that what I have experienced was true. I have faith that my reasoning abilities have led me to the correct conclusions in my life. I have faith that I know what I know. I believe I know what I know to be true in my heart. I cannot choose to know or believe otherwise.

Belief has very little to do with sexual orientation, love covers more than those type of relationships. If you want to talk about belief in relationships we can consider whether or not people love the person they want or the person that is actually there. If it weren't a choice we would never be able to choose to leave. For someone that is loved there would be a laundry list of reasons why you choose so. To say you don't choose is to say that love holds you against your will, as if your partner just put some spell on you.

We can choose to leave the person we love. Doesn't mean we still don't love them. Just that we have decided that somethings are more important than sacrificing for that love. I left an old boyfriend of mine because he was an alcoholic in denial. I loved him, a part of me always will love him. I didn't leave him because I didn't love him anymore. I could not stay with him because it was not healthy for me to do so until he could come to grips with his own issues. This does not negate however, the fact that I still loved him when I left. In fact, were I to run into him now I think it safe to say I might still feel love for him even after all these years. Love does not hold us prisoner. Choosing to be with the person we love is not the same as loving the person. You are again comparing an action with an emotion. An external with an internal. Love does not prevent my feet from walking nor from finding a door.

 

[Warren Clark]

It depends on if you can answer this question.

Is existing a choice?

Or is it being asked if of the millions of things out there that people believe in, a person can choose among them what they want to believe.

Then I woud say no, people have core beliefs and as they progress they merely add onto them.

I believe Quagmire could expand upon this a little bit

Belief is a choice. You can choose which ever one will convict you. But you better choose wisely. Because last religion is a rotten egg. Each will have its own convictions but which try harder to convict you?

I've noticed its easy to get sucked into a religion that tells you that everything else is evil.

It really matters on how smart a person is. And I am not joking when I say that.
That bigger the idiot the more conforming the religion.

People who visit Wicca or Buddhism aren't told that everything else is evil. They are told that it is a part of our life and we must choose our own path.
However, the Baptists will tell you that you will burn in hell if you stray from their path of enlightenment.

Choose who you will carefully, because if you are an idiot, you wont have much choice at all.

If you immediately hear that people are sinners and are damned to hell, and you believe it for a second with out questioning it, you are an idiot.
But if you can take your time and think about it real hard and see a reason not to, then you might be smart enough to truly choose your path.

 

[idav]

I have faith that what I have experienced was true. I have faith that my reasoning abilities have led me to the correct conclusions in my life. I have faith that I know what I know. I believe I know what I know to be true in my heart. I cannot choose to know or believe otherwise.

Faith is only true to the person. Faith in God is personal experience but that doesn't take away the doubt and the faith needed to overcome. When there is doubt a person would have to choose to overcome the doubt.

We can choose to leave the person we love. Doesn't mean we still don't love them. Just that we have decided that somethings are more important than sacrificing for that love. I left an old boyfriend of mine because he was an alcoholic in denial. I loved him, a part of me always will love him. I didn't leave him because I didn't love him anymore. I could not stay with him because it was not healthy for me to do so until he could come to grips with his own issues. This does not negate however, the fact that I still loved him when I left. In fact, were I to run into him now I think it safe to say I might still feel love for him even after all these years. Love does not hold us prisoner. Choosing to be with the person we love is not the same as loving the person. You are again comparing an action with an emotion. An external with an internal. Love does not prevent my feet from walking nor from finding a door.

What does love, not based on reason, have to do with belief? Other than loving someone the way we want the person to be rather than the reality that the person actually is? Faith and trust are the belief aspects of the relationship, what you believe about the people.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Belief is a choice.

Choose to believe yourself to be a toad. Let us know how that worked for you.

 

[Einstimer]

I think in this day and age, belief is very much a choice. There are a lot of places where you can get both sides of the story so to speak but some people don't want to change even in the face of overwhelming evidence.

 

[idav]

Choose to believe yourself to be a toad. Let us know how that worked for you.

What if I decided to believe Jayhawker is a clever bot. It's a little easier if the belief is plausible.

 

[sandandfoam]

I do not feel as if I have any choice in what I believe.

 

[Warren Clark]

Choose to believe yourself to be a toad. Let us know how that worked for you.

If I chose so, it would be my conscious decision. =P
If I were to watch and listen to myself be a fool and call myself a toad, I would call myself a fool among other derogatory insults to express how stupid I am to think I am a toad.

 

[sandandfoam]

Choose to believe yourself to be a toad. Let us know how that worked for you.

This is a great point. Deployed on a previous occasion it changed my thinking on the subject.
I tried to think of a coherent refutation. I failed. If there is a coherent argument against the point I would love to read it.